How do they get so good?

[SnowDancer]

One thing that struck me at the two congresses I attended: There are a lot of strong dancers. Especially in Palm Springs, it seemed like every other dance I had was with a woman who would have been in the top tier of my local scene. And there were some incredible leads on the floor, too.

Is this because:
1. Dance schools are better in S. California?
2. More people are serious, perhaps practicing more or taking privates to improve?
3. Congresses attract the better dancers?

 

[noobster]

Is this because:
1. Dance schools are better in S. California?
2. More people are serious, perhaps practicing more or taking privates to improve?
3. Congresses attract the better dancers?

All of the above, probably. Congresses presumably do pull more of the experienced dancers, but a strong scene is self-perpetuating.

- Strong social scenes inspire beginners to work harder and intermediates to reach higher
- Dancing with strong partners is a source of improvement by itself
- Strong dance scenes attract many dance teachers, resulting in more choice/quality

AOTBE, I think a beginner entering a strong scene will probably ultimately become a better dancer than if that same person had entered a weak scene.

 

[chrisk]

AOTBE, I think a beginner entering a strong scene will probably ultimately become a better dancer than if that same person had entered a weak scene.

I agree with you that if you take two people and have one start in a strong and one in weak scene and check their progress after some time (let's say a year), the one from the strong scene will have made more progress and become the better dancer at that point. But what if now the person from the weaker scene moves into a strong scene? Or what if the person from the stronger scene moves into a weaker one?

I understand that whatever scene we dance and learn in is going to affect our progress. But as people tend to change scenes and move to different places, I don't think we can deduce that a strong or weak scene at the beginning is making somebody a better dancer. So while the scene that you dance in is certainly having an influence, your commitment is another factor. Or how would a strong scene make you a better dancer if you go out less then somebody else in a weak scene?

 

[azzey]

Quality practice! It's not enough to go out regularly and practice/dance if all you're doing is re-enforcing bad habits. Getting quality teaching and particularly quality practice with dance partners that are above your level but prepared to help you develop is key.

Qualilty feedback (from privates, lessons, video yourself etc) is part of that but realising what the right way to do things is only part of it, if you can't get the quality practice to turn that knowledge through muscle memory into dance experience.

 

[opm1s6]

Quality practice! It's not enough to go out regularly and practice/dance if all you're doing is re-enforcing bad habits. Getting quality teaching and particularly quality practice with dance partners that are above your level but prepared to help you develop is key.

Qualilty feedback (from privates, lessons, video yourself etc) is part of that but realising what the right way to do things is only part of it, if you can't get the quality practice to turn that knowledge through muscle memory into dance experience.

x2

great dancers aren't necessarily greater teachers.

I agree with everything said above. I read somewhere that Christian Oviedo used to practice 3-5 hours a day and it all really reinforces the comment Eddie Torres once made, comparing modern dancers to Olympians.

While I was really active in sports, and still am, none of the sports I've played were as technical as what salsa is in dance. Each move has it's own ways of enhancing the movements of the two partners and it takes a lot of time to get it all and have it just make sense. Maybe it's because I'm a lead, but this is definitely one of, if not the hardest things I've had to learn.

The one thing I'll say about better salsa scenes, is that beginners have mental hurtle to get over that isn't the norm. They'll be discouraged for a lot longer of a period because the people they compare themselves to are of such a high quality. Because of that, those that are able to react and stick with it and mentally overcome their internal demons and self-consciousness, they end up being better simply because they have persevered.

 

[Salsamakossa]

As with Azzey, I think commitment is the key. It would drive how far you go, with or without a strong scene, though that definitely helps. Those that really want to learn are those that end up going to congresses outside their city, amass DVDs to learn techniques, ask questions on forums, watch youtube videos to death (lol), etc.

Lord have mercy on Christian Oviedo: 3-5 hours a day practice? Boy does it show in his awesome dancing!!

 

[Salsamakossa]

Palm Springs seems to be slowly gathering steam as a nice place to go for this event huh? Do you have an estimate of how many people were there over that weekend?

One thing that struck me at the two congresses I attended: There are a lot of strong dancers. Especially in Palm Springs, it seemed like every other dance I had was with a woman who would have been in the top tier of my local scene. And there were some incredible leads on the floor, too.

Is this because:
1. Dance schools are better in S. California?
2. More people are serious, perhaps practicing more or taking privates to improve?
3. Congresses attract the better dancers?

 

[SnowDancer]

As with Azzey, I think commitment is the key. It would drive how far you go, with or without a strong scene, though that definitely helps. Those that really want to learn are those that end up going to congresses outside their city, amass DVDs to learn techniques, ask questions on forums, watch youtube videos to death (lol), etc.

Lord have mercy on Christian Oviedo: 3-5 hours a day practice? Boy does it show in his awesome dancing!!

Yes, I think commitment must count for a lot. Maybe in the stronger scenes, people are motivated to work harder to keep up. I feel like my city has a decent scene and some really good instructors. But I notice that the advanced dancers rarely take classes. Being at the top, they probably don't feel the need to do so.

I recently talked to one fellow who's an excellent dancer, and he told me that a year or two ago, he spent a week in San Diego, took several privates with David Stein, and that it improved his dancing immeasurably.

 

[SnowDancer]

Palm Springs seems to be slowly gathering steam as a nice place to go for this event huh? Do you have an estimate of how many people were there over that weekend?

No, but they claim to have filled the hotel, so it must have been at least several hundred.

 

[noobster]

But what if now the person from the weaker scene moves into a strong scene? ...Or how would a strong scene make you a better dancer if you go out less then somebody else in a weak scene?

Right; I wasn't intending to address the various other permutations and relevant factors, just agreeing that *when other things are equal*, the strength of the scene is an important factor in an individual's dancing development.
(Of course, re your second point, strong scenes typically have a good dance event almost every night while weak scenes may only have 1 or 2 good nights in a week, making things more difficult for dancers who are trying to improve.)

Yes, I think commitment must count for a lot. Maybe in the stronger scenes, people are motivated to work harder to keep up. I feel like my city has a decent scene and some really good instructors. But I notice that the advanced dancers rarely take classes. Being at the top, they probably don't feel the need to do so.

Absolutely, a strong scene is an incredible motivator. You don't just want to dance *like* the superstars, you want to dance *with* them. That really gets your butt in gear.

Although just because you don't see your local superstars in class doesn't mean they aren't taking instruction. After a certain point (which comes really early for followers, probably quite a bit later for leaders), there's not much you're going to get out of a group class. But even the most experienced dancers can still benefit from privates.

The one thing I'll say about better salsa scenes, is that beginners have mental hurtle to get over that isn't the norm. They'll be discouraged for a lot longer of a period because the people they compare themselves to are of such a high quality. Because of that, those that are able to react and stick with it and mentally overcome their internal demons and self-consciousness, they end up being better simply because they have persevered.

For sure. When I started dancing in NYC I was like, why am I the only beginner on the floor everywhere I go? I think the answer is, you either get discouraged and drop out immediately, or you get much better really quickly (though painfully). One year later when you still consider yourself a beginner you are actually doing better than people who have been dancing for years in smaller scenes.

 

[chr]

Although just because you don't see your local superstars in class doesn't mean they aren't taking instruction. After a certain point (which comes really early for followers, probably quite a bit later for leaders), there's not much you're going to get out of a group class. But even the most experienced dancers can still benefit from privates.

I believe that most people typically take the group classes when they are too unexperienced to really profit from them. Of course they learn a lot on the way, but not really on the topic of the class. I sometimes look at the end of group classes in certain venues and see that after the lesson most people don't try to use the pattern or ideas in real dancing. Probably because it was too advanced for them to learn it well enough to lead it.

I am also guilty of not taking group classes frequently, but I did attend them regularly in the first year of my dancing, and although I definitely profited from them, it was mostly wasted effort as they were too fast for me.

Now, every time when I happen to take a group class, I always pick up some cool stuff, or learn some interesting details I was not aware of. I definitely learn much more than before. Paradoxically, I very rarely attend the classes. Probably it is a mindset thing: I simply don't feel obliged for various irrational reasons.

All this applies to leads, and I can see why follows have much less reasons to attend standard group classes.

 

[bailar y tocar]

The difference between a 'strong' scene and a 'weak' scene is also a function of the total population size. http://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_Metropolitan_Statistical_Areas

According to that theory NY-LA-Chicago should have strong scenes just by the numbers. Note that NY metro is twice the size of No.3 Chicago. and No. 2 LA metro is twice or greater than every metro but Chicago. More people = more motivated people = more clubs = more dance instructors, local salsacongresses, dance teams etc. etc.

It would be more interesting to look at the exceptions. DC, Atl, SFO seem to fall into that category in the US. The metro is not as large as the top 3 yet the dance scene brings out many top dancers.

 

[noobster]

It would be more interesting to look at the exceptions. DC, Atl, SFO seem to fall into that category in the US. The metro is not as large as the top 3 yet the dance scene brings out many top dancers.

That is interesting... but are DC, ATL, and SFO 'better' salsa scenes than their size-mates Miami, Dallas-Ft Worth, Philly, Houston, and Boston? (I haven't got the experience to answer so I'm genuinely curious as to the opinions of people who have visited those scenes.)

 

[tj]

How are we defining "strong scene" vs. "weak scene" again? By the sheer number of dancers, by the "salsa celebs" in town, or by number of nights with good clubs/parties/studios to go to? I'll use the # of dancers measurement...

I think the population of metro Atlanta is running around 5 million which is reasonably close to the population of the DC area...

The thing is, I'd say there are more weekday options in DC than in Atlanta (at least presently. Maybe a summer thing?). At least events that bring out large numbers of dancers.

Seattle, while less population, has a pretty large number of dancers, too. Might even be more than what one would currently be seeing here in Atlanta. (disclaimer: Seattle observations are from 2003-4)

Denver, smaller than all the rest, has a proportionate number of dancers as the above. That wasn't the case 5 years ago as I'd say it used to be much lower, percentage wise.

Average competence of dancers is probably highest in DC out of these cities. Seattle and Atlanta being pretty similar, and Denver not being as competent (when looked at as a whole).

 

[tj]

Ok, my last post was somewhat rambling, and I'm trying to think of a better way to measure the cities against each other. Maybe it's just best to post my experiences as well as what each night of the week was like back when I lived there:

Currently, here in Atlanta, Saturdays are arguably the best night of the week (100's of dancers when best). There are exceptions, however, like last weekend was strongly impacted by a private birthday party (presumably at a house) plus a salsa festival in a neighboring state, so it was dead. T&G on Wednesdays has strong attendance, and I've heard good things recently about the Salsambo social on Thursdays (2 years ago, it was the best weekday). Sanctuary has reopened on Fridays, too, and is in the process of regaining momentum. There are options on Monday and Tuesday (possibly a new class on Sundays) but they aren't so great for social dancing compared to the other days (at least IME and from what I've been told). General level of dancing is decent. All 3 major styles are represented.

Contrast that with DC. Mondays at Clarendon Grill, Tuesdays at Barking Dog, Zanzibar on Wednesday, and (I've been told) Cecilia's on Thursdays all tended to have strong turnouts back when I lived there in 2003-5. Much stronger turnouts than most weekdays this summer here in Atlanta (T&G is equivalent). The Stuck on Salsa socials were really, really good at their height, but were tailing off a little when I moved. General level of dancing is probably highest of the cities that I mention. All 3 major styles are represented.

Denver/Boulder was quite a surprise for me when I went to go visit friends for a week. The population there is like 1-2 Million, so there are just less people than in DC, Seattle, or Atlanta. But even then, you wouldn't have the same 30-40% numbers of dancers - it used to be much less. Well, I'm happy to say that when I went out there, there were well attended options every night of the week except Monday. Turnout is probably around 30-40% the numbers of the other cities, and the general competency level is lower, too. But it's much better than it used to be. Not a good On2 location, but you'll find LA Style (sorta, lol) and Casino (probably a rueda available at most clubs/nights).

Seattle was really good back when I lived there in 2002-3. 100s of dancers would show up at the Century Ballroom. Possibly the largest venue out of the clubs that I've mentioned in this post. Nights were Thursdays and Saturdays. There also used to be a pretty good place near UW on Tuesdays, which I've heard has closed. Not very good On2 or Casino back when I lived there. I've heard it's grown (stylistically) a lot in the past 5-6 years.


(...and standard disclaimers about IME apply. :wink: )

 

[noobster]

How are we defining "strong scene" vs. "weak scene" again? By the sheer number of dancers, by the "salsa celebs" in town, or by number of nights with good clubs/parties/studios to go to?

I think those things are all positively correlated; but I'll use the noobster(TM) definition of a strong salsa scene as one that consistently draws large numbers of skilled dancers to its social events.

Just from what I've heard on the board it sounds like scene strength does roughly correlate with population size; but IME the correlation is not linear as one would expect if it were merely the case that bigger cities have more dancers.

So for e.g., the NY/NJ/CT tri-state area has about 4.5x as many people as the SF Bay area according to bailar y tocar's link. But I would not say there are 1/5 as many regular, experienced salseros on the floor at a typical SF event as at a typical NYC event. More like 1/10 or 1/20 as many.

A typical Tuesday night at Glas Kat in SF draws maybe 200 people, of whom 50-100 are probably regular salser@s and 25 are in the 'strong' range. A typical Tuesday night at Link (closed at the moment but I think it's a good comparison) in NYC used to also draw about 200 people, of whom probably 195 were 'strong,' at least after 11 PM.

(Perhaps the most interesting aspect of the SF scene is that it regularly draws, not addicts, but dabblers - people who see salsa as an occasional good time just like any other night out. It's true *social* dancing, and is an aspect of the SF scene that I really appreciate. There aren't too many dabblers in the NYC on2 scene because as noted, there is very little middle ground available between getting good and dropping out.)

So anyway, I think there are self-reinforcing effects of a strong scene that go beyond the mere fact of there being more dancers overall, and therefore proportionately more strong dancers as well.

 

[quixotedlm]

tj - seattle observations are on the mark.

 

[barrefly]

One thing that struck me at the two congresses I attended: There are a lot of strong dancers. Especially in Palm Springs, it seemed like every other dance I had was with a woman who would have been in the top tier of my local scene.

Apparently, that isn't so true. ...A 14 yr. old girl took 1st place in the Pro. J & J P.S. Summer Extravaganza event this weekend....and a 15 yr. old boy took 3rd. LOL
(Hey, I can brag once in a while). The kids had a great time.

 

[Jag75]

I think the cultural diversity of an area also makes a difference to the strength of a salsa scene. Would I be correct in presuming there is more salsa in the Northern US States than the Southern ones? I'm from Australia so if I'm way off don't hesitate in letting me know

Here in Canberra, with a population of only 350,000, we have quite a strong scene. I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that Canberra is a very multicultural city.

 

[vata07]

Absolutely, a strong scene is an incredible motivator. You don't just want to dance *like* the superstars, you want to dance *with* them. That really gets your butt in gear.

it would also help if said dancers would dance properly when you ask them instead of pouting because, God forbid, they have to dance with someone that's not "elite" as they are,

i think regardless of the strength of your scene, salsa is unique in that if you put in a lot of effort, you'll see the returns regardless of the quality of your scene.

in all the sports i've played, some every bit as technical as salsa, i've gotten better by practicing with the strong competitors.

as a lead, i'm not so sure how much you benefit by dancing with a really good female dancer. i've learned more from dancing with beginners or those at my level than dancing with my teacher. she knows what i'm taught (duh!!) so she "fills the gaps" if there are any. i feel more gratification from taking a newbie and run her through most of my repertoire.

(it would also help if i was successful at dragging people out for more than once a week, double )