How can I improve my dancing? Feedback please :)

As a follower, am I
Hey Mac

Instead of commenting on technicals I'd say that you could do with loosening up and trying a little flirtation (non-sexual married woman compatible of course) and perhaps some more playfulness.

You have a really endearing ism in that little wiggle you do as seen the shine vids, Mac. If you could bring more of that into the partner side of things that would be great.

I would say that when dancing with you I feel the need to take things a little bit more seriously which in my case may be a good thing but could also suggest that there is a little room for more warmth from yourself. What do you think?

Hope that helps.
 
I'm surprised that with all the congresses and social dancing you do that you haven't made your BIG breakthrough yet. You're close. It will come and it will be massive!
I haven't been lucky enough to dance with MacMoto yet (although I really do hope to someday!), so I can't provide any personalized feedback.

However, azzey's comment made me think of something....is it possible to attend too many congresses? MacMoto seems to be our most prolific visitor to Salsa congresses (with the notable omission of congresses in Texas :P), and I think we've had prior posts/threads on this forum about how congresses are not a "normal" dancing environment. In some cases that's good, since you get to learn new things at workshops and find many people/friends with a similar dedication to Salsa dancing. However, the music overall is usually faster than a typical Salsa night at a club or social, plus dancers are often in "showoff" mode -- e.g., more spins, exaggerated styling, more complicated partnerwork, etc. In that environment, it would seem more difficult to work on the subtle aspects of fundamental body mechanics and personal connection with a partner, given that dancing at a congress is so much "bigger" than an average Salsa night.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that you attend fewer congresses, but maybe balance them with more local dancing and also be fully mindful of the limitations in a congress environment for improving your fundamentals. In some ways, at congresses you may have to work even harder to focus on your fundamentals when your leader (or follower) is mainly focusing on how to make the dance as much of a "show" as possible. I can usually tell when a follower is not truly dancing with me, but is mainly using me as the guy for her to practice what she learned in that afternoon's styling workshop. If your partner isn't allowing you establish a real connection, then it can become easier to slip into bad habits.
 
Hey there Mac,

So since I've danced with you a fair amount in the past seven months I do remember some things. I'll take up following first.

I think the biggest problem is that right now you're in the middle of a lot of things. You're light, not noticably so, but not heavy. Your responsive, but not super responsive, or unfocused. You're musical, but not super musical or passive. The balance is okay, but it's not great, but it's not bad. I could go on, but really I found you to be a very even dancer, someone early commented on you not having the edge, and Flujo offered up being more playful. My guess is this is kind've what they allude towards. This may be a result of A) learning to be a leader before you became a super good follower. This can hinder a person in the short term I think, but has long term benefits. B) Dancing so many different styles that you kind've got caught in the middle of style. I mean you don't dance like say, with a New York style infleuence that's noticable, but despite knowing cuban, I didn't notice a great deal of cuban flavor.

So of course, I don't particularly subscribe to associating with a particular style of dancing save ones own, however I think you need to seriously think about what type of dancer you really want to be, what you want to look like and see if you can coax that dancer to come out. Do you want to be super responsive? Do you want to be a I can follow every uber-complex pattern follower? Or maybe you just want to be the girl that can really make those simple dances a pleasure?

The list is is huge, some skill sets will overlap into other categories, while some are very specific to a technique.

So three things I recommend,
-pick like ten of your favorite songs, all time or current, turn them on and just start dancing to them, maybe imagine a partner with you, maybe just shining. If you're feeling technological record it and watch again.
-Next, identify followers, or if you can specifically identify the things a follow does that you like to see.
-Finally, think back of all the leaders you've danced with and see if you can figure which ones were the most you, not necessarily the "best dances" leaders, but the ones that you straight away identified with as a follower.

Now you don't have to do all that, you can go straight to just making a list of things you want to be good, that you want to be known for but make sure you're careful in selecting the attributes instead of just picking something, and then even if it's not working out trying to force yourself to be that way.

I'll tell you, be careful, when someone says practice the basic step, it's a super loaded idea. There are sixteen basic steps, one in each direction (eight) and with two different feet. So, yes, of course your basic step has to be good, you want to be able to dance well, with technique. In another way it's loaded because traditional basic steps can be different depending on the style. The cuban basic is back and then sort of in place, the standard slot basic is follow back right, forward left, rumba basic is to the side on each foot. If someone put a gun to my head, my standard basic would probably be the cumbia basic since to me it has always seemed the most dancy.

Here again we see a choice in deciding what you like the most. I really think figuring this out will help you, not only in breaking through your plateau but also in choosing what instructors you might want to study with during your travels (highly recommended). There's a lot of bad technique that can clear up when you are able to give yourself to the music and the dance, also a lot of bad techniques will fade under the light of learning really well a number of techniques that you really enjoy.

As far as the strengths I saw when we danced, the first thing I thought of is that there's no real back lead, I don't recall any times you would lead yourself into something completely different that what I intended, I could also see that you were having a great time, though I'm not sure if people less observant might notice that (again too close to being in the middle ground there), and also, despite some talk of leaning, you did have an above average frame in closed position.


Okay onto the leading, actually I found you to be a pretty good leader, this is more difficult to break down, since when I follow, I mostly have to devote my attention to it. Yours was a fairly light lead, fairly basic, though not too basic. Remember that I did email you about one particular move... My biggest problem was it isn't as clear as it could be, this is the one thing I definitely remember since when I followed you it took me awhile to warm up to following. Since you're lead is fairly light the thing I would look at doing is learning how to be more clear with what's coming on obvious moves. This will create a good trust between yourself and the following which will make it easier to do more complex things that aren't as easy to signal. Patterns were good, and interestingly, of course it could just be the leader/follower dynamic, the fun you were having showed more in your face when you were leading me, though maybe it's that strange kick people when they see men following.

All in all I think you're in a very good place, don't look at all that talk of middling as a bad thing, it just means that the road is wide open. I mean there really weren't any glaring weaknesses or holes in my view. You have a pretty good base to go from, I think it's just a matter of investing more thoughtfulness into your dancing and yes, also taking a few privates with the right instructors. For instance, you're learning pachanga, are you just checkign it out? Or are you really serious about incorporating those aspects? Here's the thing, you can learn a lot, you can dance a lot, but all that great knowledge and all those great experiences aren't in the forefront when you dance without a sense of purpose of your own dance. It's not the same thing, but you can see it's like happen to some performers who never establish any style rather than the one taught to them for performance, and it does show.
 
good on you mac, asking for feedback and taking it in good spirit. :cool:

please ask me next time we can have a dance. im sure it's the same for all of us: dancing with 1000s of people a year doesnt help fix details in the memory, lol. i'll be at croatia and hamburg, if youre going to either congress...? maybe new york too...

meanwhile, from - fuzzy - memory (i think we've only danced about 3 times over 2 years)

following: i remember you as being light, fast, joyful and with good eye contact/partner communication. :)

leading: your lead was light and clear. a lot of part-time followers lead from the arm rather than the chest, and i think that might be a little the case with you (though may be faulty memory, or a 2-year-old memory!) tensing the armpit of your leading arm helps, as does focusing on keeping the shoulder of the leading arm down, and the leading arm almost at a right-angle, with the elbow always pointed more or less at the floor. youre aiming to transer the power from your chest into your wrist/fingers, without moving the arm. when giving a spin lead, try to move your wrist/fingers only, avoiding moving your arm in a circle. tensing your stomach muscles helps too.

if you want something to work on, you could focus on style/styling. i think the best thing anyone can do for their dancing is do one song a day of mindful basic step in front of the mirror (do as i say, not as i do, lol).

i really enjoyed dancing with you (both following and leading), and im sure im not the only one...! :):cool:
 
An improver friend of mine is currently dancing back-weighted (actually on her heels) for the last couple of weeks and her timing is way off. Though she is a friend I've resisted the temptation to tell her about it even though I'm sure she would like to know to fix it. I will have to find some subtle nice way to accidentally bring it into the conversation as she is getting worse and worse and will eventually quit dancing. Anything else I don't bother unless it's dangerous behaviour.

I took my opportunity when I asked about her trainers she was wearing.
Me: "Dance trainers?"
Her: "No, running shoes"
Me: "Must be tough on this floor"
Her: "Yeah"
Me: "Oh you don't have high heels?"
Her: "Yes I do, like <name of friend>".
Me: "Oh, you should wear them... it will help improve your balance during turns and spins and keep your weight focused on the balls of your feet."
Her: "Really?" with a smile.

On Sunday she was wearing her heels and everything including connection was much improved.
 
Well, with some delay, here it is. Sorry, Mac, I was away from SF for a bit.

First of all, this is a very brave thing to do but it looks like you are getting very useful comments. One day I might do the same. (Actually if anybody has criticisms of my dancing that they would like to share, please feel free to pm me.)

You are a light leader and follower and by no means unclear or inconsistent. There is nothing that annoys me when dancing with you. I have noticed the leaning and the bouncing but they really don't bother me. I enjoy the differences and little quirks of how people dance.

I think you can eliminate the bouncing if you put your mind to it. Imagine you have a couple of heavy encyclopedia books on your head that push you down. :D

You are a serene dancer - I would not expect a lot of energy and exploding passion from you. Again, I have no problem with that. This is probably your natural style. I am not sure if you should go against it or emphasize it. It's up to you but if you decide to embrace it and make it your trademark, you might want to try to make your dancing even more smooth - like gliding on the dance floor. For example extend your movements, accentuate the lines and the flow of the dance.

This coolness of your dancing is probably why there isn't much of raw Cuban flavor and energy - that's just not how you are. Having said that, to me very few people have real flavor in their dancing and less and less people dance with energy and passion.

So, I think you are in the comfortable middle right now and the real question is what you want out of it. Pick the style/styling you enjoy. Work on the technique - balance, core strength, bouncing, etc. If you want to add something to your dancing, you can for example try to incorporate more arm styling and upper body movement (if you like this look). It's up to you. :D
 
Wow ok, you're probably one of very few people in the world who could start a thread like this.

First off I gotta say you have the most awesome connection. You can follow fine, but the connection is really remarkable. At Stars I was completely bowled over, I think it was just the right song and the right headspace etc. At Fusion the atmosphere was different and perhaps I was in a different headspace, but still it was a very personal dance and I felt something of your character come through - so often I get virtually nothing of a woman's personality from a dance, it can get so generic at the "higher" levels.

Others have said it already, you're a very serene and sophisticated partner to dance with (I don't really care much about how a dance looks on the outside). That's your speciality, I guess you can go in two different ways (it's not one or the other, you can do both of course). One is to expand your preference for like the party-style and aggressive and intense and so on kind of music, and develop your strength in spinning and footwork so that you feel more responsive and feel more groovy in the more complicated moves with super quick changes of direction and more spins etc (e.g. Nancy Ortiz?) , and the other is to take the smooth graceful thing and really be ginger rogers or whoever. The female equivalent of Oli Pineda, if you know what I mean (maybe take a look at Sharon Pakir and her way of smoothing out movement?). And then add something of yourself to the actual movement of dancing, like I said you already have bags of personality and connection but do some cool movement of your own. Hijack some (I love hijacks, but I know a lot of men don't, so I guess take it easy at first), and play. But that's nitpicking. The On1 timing felt smoother than the on2. But that is probably just my strange on2. Didn't notice any bobbing.

Leading - I'm a naff follower and you led for about 30 seconds. Nice moves, can be more obvious and make it easier by using my basic step on the first half of the bar to get me to do what you want on the second half. Guys don't need more force than anyone else to move for the majority of moves. If you think of women followers and probably men leading often the physically larger ones turn out the lightest.

Brave thing to do! Do message if you have any tips or suggestions for me!
 
Hey Thanks for the personal message about this thread... please bare in mind that this is only my opinion, and based on my personal salsa preference.

As a Follower:
- I think your responsiveness is pretty good for the majority of moves, with me and unconventional moves, I tend to lose your hands a bit, I put this down to anticipation.
- I think you carry your weight well, I don't feel like I am carrying you, however, there are instances where I feel that you move a little to far from me, and I have to really rush to catch you.
- You have some really nice styling when I let you go, but this isn't as present in partnerwork as I can see that you are focusing, I think you can bring some of your solo stuff into partnerwork so it doesn't look and feel like a world of difference. This also depends on the leader though, some leaders give you space, some really don't.
- The same goes for musicality as the comment above, you can be musical within partnerwork as a follower.

For things to work on (in my opinion):
- Connect more with the floor, this would give you better grounding, and give you a more natural looking body movement, and remove the bounce I sometimes feel.
- Minimise the steps that you take, this will help you be closer to the leader, and give you more time to 1) style if you want, or 2) recover quickly in a mistake.

As a Leader:
- I think you lead quite clearly, but for me a little too much energy, I use more momentum. It is a lot harder and requires the follower to be more responsive, but creates a nice way of dancing.
- No timing issues
- You can be more musical in your partnerwork, trying hitting more of the music and also using simpler moves to give you partner more room to play.
- For fun, use more variations of simple moves, I remember a lot of inside, outside turns, but not many cool variations of crossbodys, walkthroughs etc.
 
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond - much appreciated!

A very interesting picture is emerging, and it's really opening my eye. I'm learning a lot about my dancing here. Quite a few of you have touched on the dance personality/style aspect of me, and you are spot on. A lot of the time when I follow, I'm a follower in a very literal sense, a compliant little follower who undemandingly does what she's asked to do. Attitude is something I'm definitely not bringing into my dance at present. I style very little in partnerwork and tend to be very asexual. One thing I'm aware is I tend to take a long time to warm up (physically and mentally) - I always start a night in a very tentative mode, and at congresses it's not until late into the Saturday night that I find myself in the zone, where I feel more uninhibited and open. Perhaps I'm a little too eager to please, worrying too much about not being good enough? Maybe I should try to add some in-your-face, take-it-or-leave-it divaness to my dance? Something to experiment with, I suppose.

From the technical point of view, the problem I see is in my basic - I have such a problem connecting to the floor. The thread about "stepping like PR ladies" has been very interesting. This is going to be my project for the next 12 months - I wonder if Karel Flores is available for privates? :rolleyes:

As for leading, I think I need to work on my frame and leading from the frame, as well as on doing less and playing more. The main problem just now is time though - I'm dancing so much less than I used to, and it's difficult to devote enough time to leading without giving up following completely. It may need to stay on the back burner for now.
 
1) Maybe I should try to add some in-your-face, take-it-or-leave-it divaness to my dance? Something to experiment with, I suppose.

2) From the technical point of view, the problem I see is in my basic - I have such a problem connecting to the floor.

3) As for leading, I think I need to work on my frame and leading from the frame, as well as on doing less and playing more. .

1) i think you have a very nice personality, which comes out in your dance. :) imho, it's important to express yourself, in a way that reflects your inner self and youre comfortable wiith. melissa fernandez' styling (full-on sexy) really suits her, but isnt for everyone - ditto magna gopal (laid back and musical), susana montero (playful and expressive), andrea stewart (strong and edgy) shelley cook (precise and elegant). it's easy to think of styling as the flashy, sexy diva style which tends to get taught at congress workshops, but there are plenty of other flavours out there

i'd suggest starting by using whatever bits of self-invented or unconscious styling you already do, and refining/adding to them.

if sexy diva is the inner you, and youre too shy to release her, it helped me with my shyness to pretend to be a famous sexy actress instead of just dancing as myself. and i was really shy - i literally had lipstick on my shoulder after a night's dancing from tucking my head in, in a futile attempt to make myself invisible, lol

2) & 3) if youre happy to miss out on any kizomba/bachata tracks at sos, if you like, let's find a corner and see what we can do, just for fun. :)
 
Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to respond - much appreciated!

A very interesting picture is emerging, and it's really opening my eye. I'm learning a lot about my dancing here. Quite a few of you have touched on the dance personality/style aspect of me, and you are spot on. A lot of the time when I follow, I'm a follower in a very literal sense, a compliant little follower who undemandingly does what she's asked to do. Attitude is something I'm definitely not bringing into my dance at present. I style very little in partnerwork and tend to be very asexual. One thing I'm aware is I tend to take a long time to warm up (physically and mentally) - I always start a night in a very tentative mode, and at congresses it's not until late into the Saturday night that I find myself in the zone, where I feel more uninhibited and open. Perhaps I'm a little too eager to please, worrying too much about not being good enough? Maybe I should try to add some in-your-face, take-it-or-leave-it divaness to my dance? Something to experiment with, I suppose.

Well, I want to say that I hope you're a little bit of joking here, in no literal way do I see implied in this thread that you're 'compliant', and it hurts that you might see yourself that way. Look, if one subscribes to the idea that there are three major factors in dancing salsa, 1. rhythm/timing 2. partnerwork, leading/following 3. body movement, then what you seem to conclude, and this wouldn't be unreasonable, is that you've reached a point where your rhythm/timing and leading/following isn't going to get that much better without body movement, and body movement is the most dancy aspect when it comes to ones own dance. I think body movement definitely has a close connection to self confidence and ease of dancing, learning it is often the hardest thing to do

From the technical point of view, the problem I see is in my basic - I have such a problem connecting to the floor. The thread about "stepping like PR ladies" has been very interesting. This is going to be my project for the next 12 months - I wonder if Karel Flores is available for privates? :rolleyes:

I'm wondering, and feel free to PM me about answering something like this, where do you feel you're lacking in this connecting with the floor? It isnt exactly mainstream knowledge is all.

As for leading, I think I need to work on my frame and leading from the frame, as well as on doing less and playing more. The main problem just now is time though - I'm dancing so much less than I used to, and it's difficult to devote enough time to leading without giving up following completely. It may need to stay on the back burner for now.

I think this is the step in the right direction, a really good frame will make a good leader, just be sure to think about lightly applying the same idea to your following, same with play, both these things offer a lot of overlap into the lead/follow dynamic.
 
Well, I want to say that I hope you're a little bit of joking here, in no literal way do I see implied in this thread that you're 'compliant', and it hurts that you might see yourself that way.
No? But it's something I do see in myself.

if one subscribes to the idea that there are three major factors in dancing salsa, 1. rhythm/timing 2. partnerwork, leading/following 3. body movement, then what you seem to conclude, and this wouldn't be unreasonable, is that you've reached a point where your rhythm/timing and leading/following isn't going to get that much better without body movement, and body movement is the most dancy aspect when it comes to ones own dance. I think body movement definitely has a close connection to self confidence and ease of dancing, learning it is often the hardest thing to do
Absolutely.

But I think I often neglect another factor in dancing salsa, 4. state of mind, and perhaps it's something I should start paying more attention to?


where do you feel you're lacking in this connecting with the floor? It isnt exactly mainstream knowledge is all.
It's difficult to explain :( But what I want to see happen to my dance is the connectedness, from the floor to the feet to the hips to the ribcage to the back/shoulders to the arms, to be a coherent whole, grounded and extending from the centre. At the moment I feel that my upper body's working much better than it used to, but it's kinda disconnected from the hips down.
 
No? But it's something I do see in myself.
I don't think you're wrong for feeling, I don't know, annoyed, hard on yourself, and it's difficult to gauge just how intense your feeling is, seeing as how this is just the internet so.... It's just that that's a harsh wording of looking at things. For instance, if I was to take you and elevate the way your dance is now to a professional level follow with the kind've feeling and look I think you would like, then I imagine you would end up looking/being alot like someone like Cecile from Terry and Cecile. She's not super styling, or super sexy or super diva at all, she's just a totally chill, layed back dancer, and also a great fun follower. If you want to change up some go ahead and see how it feels then do it, as I said you'll want to find a nice harmony of how you want to be and what you're actually capable of doing without 'faking it'. It's just this, it's a natural progression, and it's probably natural to be annoyed, but there's no need to make it worse than it is.


But I think I often neglect another factor in dancing salsa, 4. state of mind, and perhaps it's something I should start paying more attention to?

Actually I think what your touching on is the idea of Focus which is what I touched upon in OPMs thread about favorite follows, I think you're focus on the timign is good, the focus on the partner is good. However you've admitted that you're being too generous, you're being too unselfish, and thusly not giving body movement the attention it deserves. I think state of mind and body movement are the physical/mental equivalents of each other, since your state of mind will affect the way you're moving at any particular moment in time. It's probably also true that the better you're moving the better the state of mind.

It's difficult to explain :( But what I want to see happen to my dance is the connectedness, from the floor to the feet to the hips to the ribcage to the back/shoulders to the arms, to be a coherent whole, grounded and extending from the centre. At the moment I feel that my upper body's working much better than it used to, but it's kinda disconnected from the hips down.

Well, I definitely think that's a worthy goal, and indeed a goal worth striving for. Being grounded is a great feat of dance. I think this too is just part of things, I too have been there, You may want to do more stretching of the lower body, especially try some dynamic stretching before going out to loosen up the lower body, it may not be that your body is disconnected rather your upper body has just gotten looser while your low body hasn't reached that point.
 
It's difficult to explain :( But what I want to see happen to my dance is the connectedness, from the floor to the feet to the hips to the ribcage to the back/shoulders to the arms, to be a coherent whole, grounded and extending from the centre. At the moment I feel that my upper body's working much better than it used to, but it's kinda disconnected from the hips down.

Tried to PM you with some exercises that may help, but your mailbox is full.
 
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