How and Why using a thumb hand grip hurts the follow's shoulder

Sabrosura

Sabrosura

Son Montuno
In case anyone is still wondering, here is the problem that occurs when the leader is holding the follow's hand in a fixed position with his thumb, rather than using a thumbless hand hold (which allows the follow's hand to adjust when she turns) -- the shoulder is forced, during turns, to rotate in an unnatural way that will, over time (or in some cases immediately), injure the follow's shoulder. So, zero excuses for guys who use thumb grip and zero apologies needed for a follow terminating a dance when the lead refuses to change his hand grip, even when she asks him to.


At 0:30 he starts explaining the problem (he is a sports physical therapist) and why that kind of rotation hurts the shoulder (and it's a matter of 'when', not 'if'). At 4:20-4:50 he explains the technical term of why this kind of rotation causes injury, when the arm is raised and the shoulder is rotated like that: impingement.

In case it isn't obvious how that specific weight lifting movement is related to salsa: the shoulder is put through that exact same kind of unnatural rotation when the follow is forced to turn while the lead is holding her hand in a fixed position (by using his entire hand including the thumb to hold her hand), without letting her hand adjust during the turn.
 
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opm1s6 said:
What percent of dancers use their thumbs with you Sabrosura?
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It varies a lot by scene. For example in New York and Paris, very very few. At the average congress, there are usually a few a night who do it (I tend to pick my partners at congresses rather than wait to be asked, and one of the things I look at when picking a partner is his hand hold — so I’m guessing that might also be why I don’t encounter many thumb grippers at congresses). And in some places/scenes, there are a lot more. I recall a small Brussels congress where almost everyone I danced with was using the thumb grip.

If I were to estimate an average, I’d say about 10-15% of leads are thumb grippers.
 
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Since when do beginner dancers and their teachers care for biomechanics?

But a question of curiosity:
I see many different ways of hand holds including the thumb. Are they all thumb grips by your usage of the word?

There are the ones clamping your fingers/middle hand, seemingly oblivious of the hook or forms of active hand connection. Quite some follows also use that, some softer, some really like a clamp.
This is the version I relate to the concept of "thumb grip" and it is very common to see that.

Then there are handshake-grips.
The hands from both sides close around each other like in some kind of handshake. Can be done with and without thumb.
I feel this as highly restricting for a lead, but some follows seem to be used to it and I see leads doing it over and over. Even have seen it being taught.

A special version is the bro-handshake.
The thumb goes around the thumb and the hands grip the back hand and wrists.
Several teachers around here teach and use that.
In Cuban Style dancing, specially in Rueda, it is endemic around here. I'd say about 50% of the leads seem to use it regularly. I had follows telling me, I'd have to hold her like that, over and over again, yet thinking of it being restrictive for my leading again.
It allows for a lot of pulling force, which some of these teachers seem to do (and follows develop habits to compensate that).

And finally the wrist grip.
I have had this even taught by international teachers.
Instead of holding the hand you hold the follows wrist with your hand, which makes it much easier to force movements on her through the arms.
Never had it seen taught for turns though, still seeing it on the floor every here and there. Leads using this a lot, have a tendency to be rather unpopular though.


Which of these are part of your concept of thumb grip?
And how common and problematic are they from your perspective?
 
Sabrosura said:
In case anyone is still wondering, here is the problem that occurs when the leader is holding the follow's hand in a fixed position with his thumb, rather than using a thumbless hand hold (which allows the follow's hand to adjust when she turns) -- the shoulder is forced, during turns, to rotate in an unnatural way that will, over time (or in some cases immediately), injure the follow's shoulder. So, zero excuses for guys who use thumb grip and zero apologies needed for a follow terminating a dance when the lead refuses to change his hand grip, even when she asks him to.


At 0:30 he starts explaining the problem (he is a sports physical therapist) and why that kind of rotation hurts the shoulder (and it's a matter of 'when', not 'if'). At 4:20-4:50 he explains the technical term of why this kind of rotation causes injury, when the arm is raised and the shoulder is rotated like that: impingement.

In case it isn't obvious how that specific weight lifting movement is related to salsa: the shoulder is put through that exact same kind of unnatural rotation when the follow is forced to turn while the lead is holding her hand in a fixed position (by using his entire hand including the thumb to hold her hand), without letting her hand adjust during the turn.
Click to expand...
I'm subscribed to that channel and love this guy's videos. Great find in applying this to salsa, I'll make sure to include that next time I teach. Woohoo.
 
I've noticed that it's creeping in more in styles such as bachata and zouk.

People mistake a "wrist hold" for example which should only cover half the wrist with encircling the full wrist, and I've even encountered instructors who teach this.

Personally, there should be 0 clasping action no matter what the move, in my opinion.
 
elanimal said:
I'm subscribed to that channel and love this guy's videos. Great find in applying this to salsa, I'll make sure to include that next time I teach. Woohoo.
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Yep I'm a subscriber too, I've recently gone back to weight training, after a bit of a break, and was looking to improve my knowledge about certain exercises and came across his channel -- I love how precise he is with his explanations and how he tweaks exercises for the best effectiveness (and injury prevention). I bet he'd have some really good tips for salsa lead-follow technique if he got into salsa dancing :)
 
Sabrosura said:
In case anyone is still wondering, here is the problem that occurs when the leader is holding the follow's hand in a fixed position with his thumb, rather than using a thumbless hand hold (which allows the follow's hand to adjust when she turns) -- the shoulder is forced, during turns, to rotate in an unnatural way that will, over time (or in some cases immediately), injure the follow's shoulder. So, zero excuses for guys who use thumb grip and zero apologies needed for a follow terminating a dance when the lead refuses to change his hand grip, even when she asks him to.


At 0:30 he starts explaining the problem (he is a sports physical therapist) and why that kind of rotation hurts the shoulder (and it's a matter of 'when', not 'if'). At 4:20-4:50 he explains the technical term of why this kind of rotation causes injury, when the arm is raised and the shoulder is rotated like that: impingement.

In case it isn't obvious how that specific weight lifting movement is related to salsa: the shoulder is put through that exact same kind of unnatural rotation when the follow is forced to turn while the lead is holding her hand in a fixed position (by using his entire hand including the thumb to hold her hand), without letting her hand adjust during the turn.
Click to expand...
In general gripping with thumb is uncomfortable. There is a tendency to then apply pressure to the follows hand. I encountered this when I danced as a follow (Past tense). WHen I was thumb gripped for turns I locked my elbo and shoulder to prevent injury, the ones who lead like this typically also do a "lasso" turn.
 
MrR said:
There are the ones clamping your fingers/middle hand, seemingly oblivious of the hook or forms of active hand connection. Quite some follows also use that, some softer, some really like a clamp.
This is the version I relate to the concept of "thumb grip" and it is very common to see that.
Click to expand...

This is the one I am referring to and that I see the most often.

Another variation, which I can't explain very well as it's a very weird one, is when the guy does not close down the thumb but somehow laterally clasps the follow's fingers in-between his. The effect is the same, the follow's hand can't adjust during turns.

MrR said:
Then there are handshake-grips.
The hands from both sides close around each other like in some kind of handshake. Can be done with and without thumb.
I feel this as highly restricting for a lead, but some follows seem to be used to it and I see leads doing it over and over. Even have seen it being taught.
Click to expand...

I have not really encountered this one but imagine (and hope!) it would primarily be used only for specific moves (from open break perhaps), rather than during the entire dance. Can't really picture using this hold to lead a turn! But yes, as long as the lead is clasping his hand around the follow's hand, the effect (blocking the shoulder during turns) would be the same as the thumb grip.

MrR said:
A special version is the bro-handshake.
The thumb goes around the thumb and the hands grip the back hand and wrists.
Several teachers around here teach and use that.
In Cuban Style dancing, specially in Rueda, it is endemic around here. I'd say about 50% of the leads seem to use it regularly. I had follows telling me, I'd have to hold her like that, over and over again, yet thinking of it being restrictive for my leading again.
It allows for a lot of pulling force, which some of these teachers seem to do (and follows develop habits to compensate that).
Click to expand...

Again, not a hold I can imagine can be used outside of just a few very specific moves (like you said, it probably works in some rueda moves).

I have seen it used in salsa (as well as the wrist hold below) during some moves where the lead pulls the follow during open position, for example to send her into some free turns. I personally hate it, though I can put up with it if it used sporadically during specific moves, but some guys definitely overdo it. I recall one recent dance when the guy basically grabbed my wrist during the entire dance, until I finally told him how uncomfortable it was to be led this way.

MrR said:
And finally the wrist grip.
I have had this even taught by international teachers.
Instead of holding the hand you hold the follows wrist with your hand, which makes it much easier to force movements on her through the arms.
Never had it seen taught for turns though, still seeing it on the floor every here and there. Leads using this a lot, have a tendency to be rather unpopular though.
Click to expand...
 
Al Israel said:
In general gripping with thumb is uncomfortable. There is a tendency to then apply pressure to the follows hand. I encountered this when I danced as a follow (Past tense). WHen I was thumb gripped for turns I locked my elbo and shoulder to prevent injury, the ones who lead like this typically also do a "lasso" turn.
Click to expand...

Locking the shoulder is a great idea, but I think the guy can then try to apply even more force, thinking you're not following his lead well. Personally I find it too stressful to try to use these defensive strategies as I'm basically in fear for my shoulders during the entire dance (so I'm not really "dancing" at that point, more like merely defending myself), so I prefer to ask them directly to open their thumb. In the rare cases they refuse/get offended, I end the dance. My shoulders' health is more important than their ego -- ego is endless, but I only have 2 shoulders. :p
 
How about in certain moves where the thumb is necessary? A scoop turn comes to mind, and perhaps some of the more complicated hand tricks/flicks.
 
Jeff is a great guy, and I follow him regularly, but he sometimes likes to go binary and unnecessarily scare his audience with: "Don't do that, you will 100% get injured", occasionally, based on outdated information.

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To the topic:

-Internal rotation of the shoulder is a fine thing to do. *It may get messed up with combination of some other movements, which feel limiting and unnatural, and we don't do them to begin with.

-Raise your hands high: You will naturally externally rotate the shoulders; your scapula will rotate medially, and elevate (shrug). No way can you impinge your shoulder when the scapula is in that position.

-If you watch his demonstration of the 'Lateral Raise' (which is a crappy exercise in general), and try replacing it (the bad way, as he showed in the beginning), you will see how limiting and 'unnatural' it is. That is to say: We don't laterally raise our hands like that anyway. (It's just how many people do this exercise in gym).

-When Physiotherapists check for Shoulder Impingement - they will ask you to "relax your muscles", and then manually position your arms in that unnatural way: Arms raises, Elbows parallel to the ground, and no shrugging. Now, that's some shoulder impingement, and if you are injured, it may hurt. Then, they may try exaggerating it by pressing your forearm down. (And ask if the pain had worsen).

This messed up position can be recreated in some popular exercises in the gym...(Badly executed Bench Press, Lateral Raises and Upright Rows), all done against resistance, squashing things that are meant to stand some abuse, but not that much!

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But I don't see how that is any related to turning in dance. I can also don't understand how the thumb grip is relevant. (Perhaps it is. I just can't imagine it at the moment).

*Edit - OK. If a guy suddenly pulls and raises your hand, while holding you firmly, I can see terrible things happening. /:

-With that said: The thumb grip can be stupidly painful, and doesn't have any advantages I know of...So zero excuses for guys using it anyways.
 
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ctcmichael said:
How about in certain moves where the thumb is necessary? A scoop turn comes to mind, and perhaps some of the more complicated hand tricks/flicks.
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I don't know any move where the thumb hold is necessary, including scoop turns. Thumbs just get in the way, especially when doing fast turn patterns. I am trying to think of some move where I use thumbs, but I can't think of any.
 
Sabrosura said:
Locking the shoulder is a great idea, but I think the guy can then try to apply even more force, thinking you're not following his lead well. Personally I find it too stressful to try to use these defensive strategies as I'm basically in fear for my shoulders during the entire dance (so I'm not really "dancing" at that point, more like merely defending myself), so I prefer to ask them directly to open their thumb. In the rare cases they refuse/get offended, I end the dance. My shoulders' health is more important than their ego -- ego is endless, but I only have 2 shoulders. :p
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With all your EU money you can buy a couple extra :P
 
ctcmichael said:
How about in certain moves where the thumb is necessary? A scoop turn comes to mind, and perhaps some of the more complicated hand tricks/flicks.
Click to expand...

I can tell you that it's not absolutely required to use your thumb during the scoop turn - this is actually lazy technique.
 
OK. done some extra thinking:

-Against a forceful lead, who grips your hand and pulls it: Trying to keep your shoulders down (and the scapula depressed), yet allowing him to raise your hand creates shoulder impingement.

-I am not quite sure how the thumb hold prevents you from repositioning your hands. Supination and Pronation happens in the forearm. (As explained, in the video, BTW).
*I can see, however, how any grip that locks your hands in a certain position, may lead to damaging your wrists.

Moral of the story: Offer your hands, guys, let her do the gripping!

*Isn't leading about making the girl do the work, on her own, anyways?

*The way I see it: If I am the one moving the girl, then it's not leading, it's coercing.

*I would rather that the girl I am dancing with (not against) be my partner, not my 'hostage'. (Especially when, for me, dancing is about freedom).
 
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