Hopefully yet another retread of NYC style

[1derpalm]

Dont kill me. I have looked through forums and havent found a very good explanation pr conversation outside the obvious.
I was watching an old Eddie torres video (nightclub volume 2) and noticed that, apart from timing, there really was a difference on how the moves were executed. Once they got into open position for turn patterns, there was ALOT less forward and back. Almost more side rocks and on the spot stepping (even for the girl).
I notice that even people teaching steps the on 2 do it the "standard way" (eg forward steps before redirecting for reverse turn, an obvious prep for double spins, making the girl step forward before a turn).
My question is:
Was this just an antiquated way of doing salsa in nyc, and has 8t been "normslized", or is this more of a Hallmark of NYC style (apart from the count. Please let's not talk about the count). I feel that if proper tension is there it is more conducive to tight spot dancing and quick directional changes that seem to be more "advsnced" in standard on 1 (and some in2 that just takes la style and changes counting). To and that is why it looked so different ti me.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Dont kill me. I have looked through forums and havent found a very good explanation pr conversation outside the obvious.
I was watching an old Eddie torres video (nightclub volume 2) and noticed that, apart from timing, there really was a difference on how the moves were executed. Once they got into open position for turn patterns, there was ALOT less forward and back. Almost more side rocks and on the spot stepping (even for the girl).
I notice that even people teaching steps the on 2 do it the "standard way" (eg forward steps before redirecting for reverse turn, an obvious prep for double spins, making the girl step forward before a turn).
My question is:
Was this just an antiquated way of doing salsa in nyc, and has 8t been "normslized", or is this more of a Hallmark of NYC style (apart from the count. Please let's not talk about the count). I feel that if proper tension is there it is more conducive to tight spot dancing and quick directional changes that seem to be more "advsnced" in standard on 1 (and some in2 that just takes la style and changes counting). To and that is why it looked so different ti me.

Can what you saw ET do on video really be taught? It seems there is a standard syllabus to teach On2, but what you see ET do isn't taught anywhere. Maybe it was but I haven't yet heard anyone come out and say where that special tension comes from nor who taught it to them.

In any case, if you've never learned it, then chances are you won't develop it unless you truly seek it out. I would say I'm halfway there, but I will always keep dancing my hybrid euro On2/nyc On2 because I'm a rebel.

 

[1derpalm]

I meant proper tension. Not spaghetti arms. I'm not quite sure i understand your post lol. In his instructional video, all the ladies and guys do more of a side step action and on the spot vs forward backward when it comes to initiating and executing turn patterns.
I mentioned the tension because when trying this with locals, if they aren't doing forward and back, turns are next to impossible.
But part of you post still keeps my question open.. what is your Euro/nyc hybrid and how are thd styles different?

 

[Smiley79]

I meant proper tension. Not spaghetti arms. I'm not quite sure i understand your post lol. In his instructional video, all the ladies and guys do more of a side step action and on the spot vs forward backward when it comes to initiating and executing turn patterns.
I mentioned the tension because when trying this with locals, if they aren't doing forward and back, turns are next to impossible.
But part of you post still keeps my question open.. what is your Euro/nyc hybrid and how are thd styles different?

I used to step forward/back leading turns. But my last teacher gave me some free styling tips. One was to do a back break/ "5th position" instead of the forward/back step when leading turns. Presto it's actually very smooth and using a back break can already set you up for another move. Even with CBL, a back break sets you up for a left spin.

 

[1derpalm]

I'm not sure I understand. 5 in on2 would be the 7 in on1, no? Please clarify. Also k always lesd turns with z back break on 1 (on 6 if on 2, on 2 if dancing the other on 2 lol)

 

[Chris_Yannick]

In his instructional video, all the ladies and guys do more of a side step action and on the spot vs forward backward when it comes to initiating and executing turn patterns.

I'm curious. Isn't this how it's always done? I also step side to side when executing turn patterns. The only time I step forward and back is when I'm doing a basic or doing a specific back break/open break pattern.

I mentioned the tension because when trying this with locals, if they aren't doing forward and back, turns are next to impossible.

Why do you need to be going forward/back to initiate turns? What kind of turns are you leading? Every school I've seen offline and online prep turns by stepping to the side or on the spot.

what is your Euro/nyc hybrid and how are thd styles different?

This is just how I differentiate people who dance On2 vs the way I see guys like Eddie Torres dance On2.

But 2 things to me stand out that characterize how I imagine ideal On2 dancing to be. First, stepping slightly behind the beat. Second, there's the tension & release thing which apparently can only be felt. It kinda goes hand-in-hand with stepping behind the beat. If you delay your weight transfer just slightly, you can generate some interesting tension for the follower. Of course these elements can exist in all styles, but I've only heard it associated with New York style On2.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Was this just an antiquated way of doing salsa in nyc, and has 8t been "normslized", or is this more of a Hallmark of NYC style

As much as I respect Eddie Torres, his instructional video doesn't reflect what he's actually doing. I don't know how he teaches since I've never taken a class from him. Does he actually go into things like tension, weight transfer and delayed stepping? If not, then there's no point trying to figure it out from videos alone.

This is probably why guys like Mek and that Epoca guy (lol apologies but I don't know his name) want to find alternative ways to teach how to dance On2 (and also On1). They are attempting to break down what Eddie Torres is actually doing vs what is being taught in classes.

In the end, try everything. Experiment. Learn. Grow. It only matters how you want to dance. I don't apply the same rules to my partner. If we are somehow not synchronized, then I adjust and move on. I am pretty sure I can find a count that we can both agree on.

 

[1derpalm]

Thevtendion yhong as I said is just my assumption based on dancing with spaghetti armed follows that wont successfully fo any turns from z side to side or on the spot basic.

 

[1derpalm]

I'll have to use video examples.
Left turn lady stepping forward

Again

Right turns

If you compare this with the Night club Eddie Torres videos (volume 2), it does not look like this. Especially how the lady right turns, and her prep for left turn doesn't involve stepping forward.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I'll have to use video examples.
Left turn lady stepping forward

Again

Right turns

If you compare this with the Night club Eddie Torres videos (volume 2), it does not look like this. Especially how the lady right turns, and her prep for left turn doesn't involve stepping forward.

All I know is that I do my turns like Eddie Torres. Or like Mek. As you can see, after the xbody lead, the lead slows down and almost stops as he raises his hand and therefore the follow can't step very far forward. This is when the follower knows not to travel when you initiate the turn. I do this with all of my followers and they respond in kind.

Thevtendion yhong as I said is just my assumption based on dancing with spaghetti armed follows that wont successfully fo any turns from z side to side or on the spot basic.

Sounds like badly programmed robots. They've learned one way (using the methods used in the videos you posted) but lack the social dancing experience to adjust. Also, if followers learned On1 first, then they probably learned using high elastic tension as seen in LA Style, which affects how they turn.

In my neck of the woods, followers with spaghetti arms - like the lady in Mek's video - will actually do more spot turning as opposed to stepping forward and back. So I no longer associate spaghetti arms being 'bad' since I actually have to work harder to turn them but the focus is now on adding tension to the arms and less on the direction of the steps, which is maybe why they step on the spot or side to side.

As a general rule of thumb, if you stop stepping forward/back, the follower will do the same. Try it. But you have to slow down half a bar before and transition to on-the-spot footwork at the same time you raise your hand to signal.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

After watching a bunch of social dancing videos of good dancers, amateurs and also my friends, here is my conclusion about taking back/forward stepping vs side-to-side/on-the-spot stepping during a turn.

In all cases, the followers I watched were able to follow the lead perfectly. So it didn't matter what direction the followers' steps were going, because they executed the turn on time and without problems.

Drawing from those examples - and also my own experience - it makes very little difference how the follower is stepping during a turn if the lead is clear and correct. It also didn't matter if the follower had spaghetti arms. The lead is able to turn the follower and the follower will execute.

My conclusion is that the fault of failing to execute turns is not with the follower, regardless of whether they are following Eddie Torres' instructional video or the other video examples above.

There is a caveat to this. If you are dancing with beginners, then my conclusion will be different.

If you are saying that almost every follower, regardless of level, fails to execute the Eddie Torres way of turning the follower, then I stick by my conclusion that the fault lies not with the follower, but with your lead.

Without video evidence, all of this is conjecture. LOL.

What were we talking about again?

 

[1derpalm]

...
My question...
Is the eddie torres video representative of the way NYC dancing is or is it just a more antiquated way that evolved into what we know now..

Also to your other point. A little story
After one of the October Congress at royal York. I tried to show my first teacher a video from congress of preparing and leading singles and doubles from a side step (it involves leading early). At congress anyone with proper frame followd it. Mostly the othe Londoners (except the backleader) didnt.
When I showed her the workshop and tried to teach lead it she said "no.. they dknt k ow what they're talking about ". So perhaps you dont understand my local scene experience lol

 

[Offbeat]

When I showed her the workshop and tried to teach lead it she said "no.. they dknt k ow what they're talking about ". So perhaps you dont understand my local scene experience lol

I don't think I ever heard any instructor being that dismissive about others' teaching. That sounded like a blanket dismissal without a caveat.

 

[1derpalm]

Regardless. So in a round about way my question is being answered.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Is the eddie torres video representative of the way NYC dancing is or is it just a more antiquated way that evolved into what we know now..

Would probably have to ask a New York native. I am curious to know too.

Also to your other point. A little story
After one of the October Congress at royal York. I tried to show my first teacher a video from congress of preparing and leading singles and doubles from a side step (it involves leading early). At congress anyone with proper frame followd it. Mostly the othe Londoners (except the backleader) didnt.
When I showed her the workshop and tried to teach lead it she said "no.. they dknt k ow what they're talking about ". So perhaps you dont understand my local scene experience lol

My feelng is that leading and prepping for turns have evolved in the social dance scene. I don’t see very endless spinning these days, so the days of the power prep has been replaced with more subtler hand signals. In fact, the ‘hand going up means to turn’ has really caught on. I have never had issues with this way of prepping for a turn since I abandoned J-prep and all of the other popular studio prepping methods. I look at what good social dancers are doing and I adapted to them rather than ask a teacher who may or may not have much social dancing experience.

I've found that in dancing, it's "do what I do, not what I say" simply because most teachers have no idea what they're saying lol.

 

[1derpalm]

Can't disagree with any of the above statement.
P.s I found an old thread of you asking questions using Graney levels of numbers for foot and shoulder positions. Good to see others evolution documented.

 

[1derpalm]

@Sabrosura What sayest thou? (Jusf the question about the style)

 

[Sabrosura]

@Sabrosura What sayest thou? (Jusf the question about the style)

I've said in various threads that in my experience (including in NY) indeed small steps feel better (both from the lead and myself). Or what you describe as "tight spot dancing and quick directional changes". The bigger the steps the harder it is to change directions fast and the more "start-stop" you have to do.

As for whether the style has changed, probably, because the old school dancers in NY (Nuyoricans) danced much more tight and circular, more like son. In the years I danced in NY, the best leads danced with smaller steps. But there were also a lot of leads who took big steps, especially from the salsa schools that dance with more turn patterns and spinning. Eg Santo Rico vs. Frankie dancing.

 

[1derpalm]

I've said in various threads that in my experience (including in NY) indeed small steps feel better (both from the lead and myself). Or what you describe as "tight spot dancing and quick directional changes". The bigger the steps the harder it is to change directions fast and the more "start-stop" you have to do.

As for whether the style has changed, probably, because the old school dancers in NY (Nuyoricans) danced much more tight and circular, more like son. In the years I danced in NY, the best leads danced with smaller steps. But there were also a lot of leads who took big steps, especially from the salsa schools that dance with more turn patterns and spinning. Eg Santo Rico vs. Frankie dancing.

Thank you! Exactly the type of answer I was looking for.
After scouring some threads about NYC salsa, all (mostly) I saw was NY is on 2 and LA is on 1. It lacked the detail my inquisitive mind craved. As an observer I would much rather dance and have a follower like that. Tight. Smaller steps. Circular (but maintaing slot if you know what I mean).

 

[terence]

I've said in various threads that in my experience (including in NY) indeed small steps feel better (both from the lead and myself).

As for whether the style has changed, probably, because the old school dancers in NY (Nuyoricans) danced much more tight and circular, more like son.

Good, and true observations