Has your local salsa scene contracted over the last few years?

[DJ Yuca]

yep, thats what im doing

Do you get mostly lesson orientated dancers, or Latinos? And do you have a flyer/poster we could see please ? (I need some inspiration.)

I may search for a venue. Knowing salsa dancers, it will have to have a decent sized wooden dancefloor, good parking and a cheap bar. Even then getting people to attend and buy drinks could be a big challenge. There are a few latinos living here, but not enough to make a weekly night successful, even in a small venue.

 

[matty]

Do you get mostly lesson orientated dancers, or Latinos? And do you have a flyer/poster we could see please ? (I need some inspiration.)

I may search for a venue. Knowing salsa dancers, it will have to have a decent sized wooden dancefloor, good parking and a cheap bar. Even then getting people to attend and buy drinks could be a big challenge. There are a few latinos living here, but not enough to make a weekly night successful, even in a small venue.

i could say it is about 50/50 latinos versus 'studio dancers', but it sways a bit from week to week. sometimes all latinos, sometimes all studio dancers

the music policy is 'salsa/crossover' (salsa with some merengue, bachata, some reggaeton, but majority salsa) its a video bar aswell, live salsa concert footage, and latin music videos adds an extra feature to entertain people who like to sit and drink.

here is one flyer of mine....

 

[DJ Yuca]

Great stuff! Getting a venue on a Friday sounds like a challenge, so props to you.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Do you have a problem with people not buying many drinks?

 

[TSC]

Do you have a problem with people not buying many drinks?

I wonder if this is a universal problem. It sure seems to be in our scene -- hard to keep events going on "attractive" weeknights because the salsa crowd is really stingy about bar spending (many will simply bring water with them, even if this is discouraged). So nights will start up and then -- once management realizes there's little income despite excellent crowds -- get shut down.

 

[matty]

Do you have a problem with people not buying many drinks?

we actually do ok, i mean people do drink less, but we get more people in the door on the salsa night than any other night. the bar is a little out of the way, and people wont travel there for normal music.

i just have to remind the staff sometimes that latinos and salseros are a crowd who drinks a HEALTHY amount of booze, as opposed to the other crowds who drink unhealthy amounts and bring all of the other associated problems.

i forgot to mention we have a stage aswell and host live bands almost every month.
Live music creates a kind of 'buzz' , if you find a venue where you can do that , this will be another good way to attract more people into your scene. (though you risk having to put a cover charge on those nights)

 

[DJ Yuca]

Wow. How much do you charge on the door when you have live bands? And how many members do the bands have, typically?

 

[DJ Yuca]

I wonder if this is a universal problem. It sure seems to be in our scene -- hard to keep events going on "attractive" weeknights because the salsa crowd is really stingy about bar spending (many will simply bring water with them, even if this is discouraged). So nights will start up and then -- once management realizes there's little income despite excellent crowds -- get shut down.

It is a universal problem, but perhaps at a free night even salseros would realise not buying drinks is not cool.

 

[matty]

Wow. How much do you charge on the door when you have live bands? And how many members do the bands have, typically?

most of the shows have been at no cover charge, but we sometimes have charged 5 or 10 euros.

normally 4-5 piece bands, 7 is the biggest because the stage wont fit more than 7.
the most brass we have in this size band is one trumpet and one trombone.

we had a 3 piece band once

musicians are getting crafty these days, able to play a lot of things at once

 

[TSC]

It is a universal problem, but perhaps at a free night even salseros would realise not buying drinks is not cool.

I'm afraid that here in Eastern Europe very few people think like that. Or they might, but then they remember how poor they are. It doesn't help that a big part of the salsa crowd here is college students with no real income.

Also, I suspect that deep down a lot of people here view salsa night less as a night out and more as, well, another practice, or a workout, an extension of their classes basically. There's not as much of the kind of thing you see in the core countries, where people spend a lot more time chilling and drinking and having a good time with their friends, and only get up to dance from time to time.

The most popular Cuban night here that started charging for entrance because very few people were drinking. I'm sure that's not the only example.

 

[Idalis]

In my venue WCS community is gradually growing and I'm also present there, but so far it's still maybe 5-10% of the size of the salsa community, as there is only one teacher (if I don't count a couple teaching on beginner classes now that started dancing WCS a year ago). There are not much WCS parties yet, but that will probably change in the future and take off some people from salsa, as most people dancing WCS are also dancing salsa

I don't feel it to be technically more difficult than salsa, it's actually quite similar in that regard, just that, like in every genre, I had to learn a number of things specific to the genre

6 months ago, I was introduced to WCS and I love. Its now 2nd to Salsa for me. Would be nice to see the clubs combine Salsa and WCS night. It would be very interesting to mix both crowds.

 

[Kading]

I'm afraid that here in Eastern Europe very few people think like that. Or they might, but then they remember how poor they are. It doesn't help that a big part of the salsa crowd here is college students with no real income.

Also, I suspect that deep down a lot of people here view salsa night less as a night out and more as, well, another practice, or a workout, an extension of their classes basically. There's not as much of the kind of thing you see in the core countries, where people spend a lot more time chilling and drinking and having a good time with their friends, and only get up to dance from time to time.

The most popular Cuban night here that started charging for entrance because very few people were drinking. I'm sure that's not the only example.

I believe this is true until they get advanced enough that they don't feel like needing to improve anymore. Especially advanced performers drink more.
In my scene in Holland and in NY the people who drink the most are the beginners/non-dancers and the advanced dancers. The adv beginners/intermediate people only care about dancing and getting their dances in, while the advanced people are more laid back and socialize more with their other advanced dancers and only dance when they hear a good song or see a good enough partner to dance with. Also they are at a point where a few drinks doesn't effect their balance too much and they can still do triples etc.

I'm stereotyping here of course, but it seems to hold up on average.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I'm afraid that here in Eastern Europe very few people think like that. Or they might, but then they remember how poor they are. It doesn't help that a big part of the salsa crowd here is college students with no real income.

Here in Slovakia the avg income is quite low, but people drink a ton. Cover for a salsa night is 1 Euro, which is ridiculously cheap. I find people here are more likely to spend money on alcohol than on most activities. Come to think of it, on a typical Salsa night, the Salsa itself is only just a tertiary concern, after booze and picking up women....and the Kizomba

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I was just thinking recently about the damage caused to my ex-salsa scene due to the proliferation of other dances. Prior to 2008, it was Salsa, Salsa and more Salsa. Dances such as Bachata did not hit the mainstream until 2009-ish. Zouk and Kizomba? No one had even heard of them until 2010-ish. So in 5 years (give or take a year), my salsa scene went from mostly salsa to about 40-30-30 (40 % salsa, 30% Bachata, 30% Kizomba/Zouk). Not only that, but with the introduction of beginner performance teams, more and more people are brainwashed with the idea that performing will help improve their social dancing. Pure salsa nights are rare these days. The music is continually watered down. Multiple events are being booked on the same night (this has always been the case, but with an ever increasing divided scene, this makes matters worse). All in all, I am not very hopeful for what the new breed of salsa dancers have to contend with if they are expecting to become good social dancers.

 

[vit]

Yeah, performance and social dancing are not really compatible (as I already mentioned in the past when discussion was about comparison between social salsa and competitive ballroom). In performance, point is on executing choreography. While there still is (or at least should be) leading and following, it's somewhat overshadowed by execution of the sequence of the moves, especially in lower level groups, who usually have problems with technique and remembering the sequence (which is usually complex). Other difference is that performance is oriented outwards, while social dancing is (or should be) oriented inwards (to you and your partner), so quite different set of skills comes into play

In my venue, there are currently three so to say performance groups. In only one of them, there are quite good dancers (measured by social dancing standards), and it's because their point (actually point of the instructor) isn't on performing but they still work much on technique and leading-following skills, so it's nice to dance with them. On the other side, I'm rarely dancing with members of other two groups - they are not that good, and their ratio how they dance / how they think they dance is very low ... it's interesting how different types of personalities are grouped in each of those groups

 

[Chris_Yannick]

In the first ever performance group I participated in, it really did boost my confidence while I was doing it, but it was short lived. I was an On1 dancer at the time, and the performance choreo was On2. I learned the choreography and was able to perform it flawlessly, and so I felt I should be able to dance On2 socially. Boy was I wrong. Choreography did nothing to help me with improving my social dancing skills. I still couldn't dance On2, and I had to learn it through social dancing and by locking myself in a room and re-learning every step for a good 3-6 months before I started to feel comfortable with it.

I find that some beginner/intermediate performers have a tendency of locking in their movements, which carries over into their social dancing. This means that when I try to execute certain patterns with them, they will always complete their choreo, even if it's impractical to do so (ie. when the music is too fast). It drives me nuts some times. If I ever learn another piece of choreo, I am going to express myself however I feel like (which would make me a terror to choregraph for). I realize this may translate to a less than synchronized look on stage, but I prefer watching natural movements that reflect someone's ability to express the music rather than an identical set of canned movements. Of course, beginners usually want to know exactly where to place every body part, so this gives them a more mechanical look. In the end, this could have a disastrous effect on their social dancing.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

In the first ever performance group I participated in, it really did boost my confidence while I was doing it, but it was short lived. I was an On1 dancer at the time, and the performance choreo was On2. I learned the choreography and was able to perform it flawlessly, and so I felt I should be able to dance On2 socially. Boy was I wrong. Choreography did nothing to help me with improving my social dancing skills. I still couldn't dance On2, and I had to learn it through social dancing and by locking myself in a room and re-learning every step for a good 3-6 months before I started to feel comfortable with it.

I find that some beginner/intermediate performers have a tendency of locking in their movements, which carries over into their social dancing. This means that when I try to execute certain patterns with them, they will always complete their choreo, even if it's impractical to do so (ie. when the music is too fast). It drives me nuts some times. If I ever learn another piece of choreo, I am going to express myself however I feel like (which would make me a terror to choregraph for). I realize this may translate to a less than synchronized look on stage, but I prefer watching natural movements that reflect someone's ability to express the music rather than an identical set of canned movements. Of course, beginners usually want to know exactly where to place every body part, so this gives them a more mechanical look. In the end, this could have a disastrous effect on their social dancing.

You know this is something that's been bugging me for the last two congresses I attended,as to why I don't enjoy social dancing with members of performance teams, and I think you've explained it really well, a lot of performance team members esp the younger ones, haven't yet figured out the fact that you need a different skill set for social dancing, I also get the impression that they would much rather dance with other team members than the general public, where they can do their wild and whacky stuff....(the stage and the dancerfloor are one of the same to them.). I am trying not to generalise here, but I keep seeing more of it at the congresses I attend, trouble is though, people keep wanting to dance with them because of their star aura.

 

[Salsa Student]

You know this is something that's been bugging me for the last two congresses I attended,as to why I don't enjoy social dancing with members of performance teams, and I think you've explained it really well, a lot of performance team members esp the younger ones, haven't yet figured out the fact that you need a different skill set for social dancing, I also get the impression that they would much rather dance with other team members than the general public, where they can do their wild and whacky stuff....(the stage and the dancerfloor are one of the same to them.). I am trying not to generalise here, but I keep seeing more of it at the congresses I attend, trouble is though, people keep wanting to dance with them because of their star aura.

I've talked about this with a couple of other leads, there's a couple of local performance teams where some of the beginner follows (maybe 1 year or less) seem to have developed some attitude issues, I just chalk it up to not knowing enough to know how much they don't know. Interestingly, I don't see this in the more experienced members of the same teams so I'm not sure where they're getting it from.

 

[MAMBO_CEC]

I've talked about this with a couple of other leads, there's a couple of local performance teams where some of the beginner follows (maybe 1 year or less) seem to have developed some attitude issues, I just chalk it up to not knowing enough to know how much they don't know. Interestingly, I don't see this in the more experienced members of the same teams so I'm not sure where they're getting it from.

You'll have to introduce me to these folks, the only dance team members I know are the Mambo U peeps, and they have figured it out.

 

[Offbeat]

I've talked about this with a couple of other leads, there's a couple of local performance teams where some of the beginner follows (maybe 1 year or less) seem to have developed some attitude issues, I just chalk it up to not knowing enough to know how much they don't know. Interestingly, I don't see this in the more experienced members of the same teams so I'm not sure where they're getting it from.

It is also partly fault of the instructors that lead these performer's team. They don't instill into their beginner team members what it means to social dance. A lot of these members who join a performance team from their beginners days seem to be nervous about social dancing with better social dancers. Therefore they tend to stick with advance members of their own dance team.

I have known performance training teams where instructor made it mandatory for the members to go out social dancing.

One of the best performance team I have seen, the instructor wouldn't provide the choreography till 2 months before the performance. All the time was spent in drills, fundamentals, technique training, etc. Nothing to do with choreo. The instructor's take was that if he trained the students in these things correctly, then the instructor can dictate the choreo on phone and the team should be able to perform it. A little stretch but you get the spirit of the argument of how much time should be spent on choreo vs actual dance training.