There is a thread about it somewhere already.... buried in the depths of SF.
Needless to say, I’m still awaiitng my Nobel Prize.
Getting pretty sick & tired of obviously advanced dancers attending beginner classes..
- Thread starter AlejandroKubano
- Start date
There is a thread about it somewhere already.... buried in the depths of SF.
Needless to say, I’m still awaiitng my Nobel Prize.
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Ditto
I read once on this forum years ago;
"Beginner dancers want to take intermediate classes, intermediate dancers want to take advance classes, advance dancers take beginner classes".
If your not a creep - its about strengthening your fundamentals.
I'm not a beginner. I take two classes a week. One is my level (challenging).
The other is a fundamentals class. And since I'm there to learn, it doesn't matter to me who is getting with who.
That's none of my business.
The students in these classes are adults.
"Beginner dancers want to take intermediate classes, intermediate dancers want to take advance classes, advance dancers take beginner classes".
If your not a creep - its about strengthening your fundamentals.
I'm not a beginner. I take two classes a week. One is my level (challenging).
The other is a fundamentals class. And since I'm there to learn, it doesn't matter to me who is getting with who.
That's none of my business.
The students in these classes are adults.
Bostontraitor
Son
Oh well, what's your intention to dance? Get good at dancing, or get girls?
I don't take beginner's lesson, because I am tired of girls drooling all over me.
I don't take beginner's lesson, because I am tired of girls drooling all over me.
TurqoiseHexagon
Changui
So first off, those are insecurities on your end. There are a number of reasons why more experienced (I don't use the word "ADVANCED") leads come to beginner class.
That being said, ask one of those more experienced to be a mentor. If you find the right one, they'll help you grow faster and get all of the follows to dance with you as well
That being said, ask one of those more experienced to be a mentor. If you find the right one, they'll help you grow faster and get all of the follows to dance with you as well
Recently I attended an all-levels workshop with an instructor who was new to me, and one of the first things she said was (paraphrasing slightly): "there's nothing wrong with attending a beginner level workshop, because you can always work on your fundamentals - they are the roots, they are necessary in order to really be able to dance the dance, to feel the dance and not just dance the moves".
However, reading between the lines of what you're saying from below:
I get it: are you saying that the more experienced lead is disrupting the expectations and focus of the followers, the lead is unbalancing the learning opportunity for the rest of the leads in the class - am I correct in my understanding?
Sorry to say, but that can and does happen, but moreover it has not so much to do with the lead, but rather having followers with poor attitudes in your class. Even when you yourself are more experienced, these same followers will probably retain this poor attitude (unless they wise up and change their perspectives) - so beware!
I would applaud your instructor from the second class for calling out that complaining follower - avoid dancing with them at all costs!
As a beginner, you just need to focus on your own learning opportunity and not be overly dependent on others' perceptions and attitudes, including their enjoyment of a dance with you... as selfish as that may sound. If it's in a class, then the only person you can rely on is the instructor to keep all their students' attitudes in check. If they do not, then you'd be best off finding a different instructor with better class management.
However, reading between the lines of what you're saying from below:
I get it: are you saying that the more experienced lead is disrupting the expectations and focus of the followers, the lead is unbalancing the learning opportunity for the rest of the leads in the class - am I correct in my understanding?
Sorry to say, but that can and does happen, but moreover it has not so much to do with the lead, but rather having followers with poor attitudes in your class. Even when you yourself are more experienced, these same followers will probably retain this poor attitude (unless they wise up and change their perspectives) - so beware!
I would applaud your instructor from the second class for calling out that complaining follower - avoid dancing with them at all costs!
As a beginner, you just need to focus on your own learning opportunity and not be overly dependent on others' perceptions and attitudes, including their enjoyment of a dance with you... as selfish as that may sound. If it's in a class, then the only person you can rely on is the instructor to keep all their students' attitudes in check. If they do not, then you'd be best off finding a different instructor with better class management.
I have never had a situation where a teacher had to step in to manage someone's bad attitude.
The way we handled this stuff was after class... We - along with the teachers - would bad mouth the €hit about people we disliked dancing with. Lol.
Most teachers are just like their students except with more skill at that they do. I've never known any Salsa teacher who had to confront anyone in their classes, especially paying customers.
The students handled it between themselves. That to me is the old school play ground rules way. Don't wait for the teacher to step in. You handle your own business.
This isn't primary school. These people are adults. To me it seems weird that we as adults need teachers to steps in to slap someone on the wrist when we are perfectly capable of standing up for ourselves
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It happens a lot. I remember in my beginner classes there was one assistant guy who all the girls were swooning over. He was barely out of beginner himself but to us absolute beginners he was god. Did it bother me that he was in beginner class rotations? Not at all. It wasn't a big deal. I had fun with the other beginners who appreciated dancing with me.
A good teacher keeps eye on the class and will step in. It is not only to correct attitude but also to correct an individual student. Sometimes a correction to an individual student is good for other partners in the class he/she will be rotating to. If you stand aside and watch the class, you can very quickly tell which person is projecting attitude, who is struggling, and who requires a correction. A subtlety is required to address each of three different situations. It can be done rather quickly. Most beginners look up to the instructors as a figure of authority. Especially the women. You can’t change that. Hence the teacher is in best position to bring about a positive change in relatively short time
That’s a bit shocking and shows immaturity of those teachers more than anything else. UnprofessionalThat’s like boss getting together with his subordinates and bad mouthing a difficult worker or a slow worker behind their back.
After your previous remark, I am not surprise that is you arrive at above opinion. It is rather unfortunate too, you didn’t encountered more mature and professional teachers in your early days.
The toxicity in the scene is directly dictated by the quality of instructors in the community. Good instructors produce less toxicity. I am not talking about their salsa skills or dancing skills. I am talking about other skills of imparting things that are important for dancing and social dancing.
When you are new to dancing, it is far easier to let instructor handle a problem child in the class. Beginner leaders are at a big disadvantage. It requires a lot of self confidence and idgaf about what others think for a beginner leader or follower to confront a bad actor. The bad actor could be another beginner or someone more advanced than them. More so ever when the bad actor is part of the in-crowd or more popular. Things are not necessary on equal footing. Nor old school playground type. As it is beginner is struggling to break into the scene and everyone wants to feel accepted. Last thing you want is someone creating unnecessary drama and giving you a bad rep. If you think through the actual social dynamics that a beginner is facing you would not call it weird. Instructor also have other responsibility of being community leaders and fostering positive healthy community vibes.
Even good hearted teachers need to vent at times. There are certain students who are beyond hopeless and even the nicest people and most encouraging teachers can't always be positive when they encounter such students who show no desire or willigness to improve and are basically just occupying empty space in the class.
Students can be blamed just as much for their ineptitude (especially adults) just as much as teachers are blamed for not providing good instruction.
It's really too easy these days to put blame on the teachers. It's a two-way street.
I have not yet run into any teacher I would consider toxic for the scene.
I have no doubt the bar for quality of instruction is quite low, but at some point the student must take agency and course correct for themselves.
Again, we're not talking about little kids where behavior can be changed if caught early. Most people who enter Salsa classes are adults who have already decided whether they will have a @hitty attitude.
My Salsa teachers were not bad people. They were decent at their job. They helped encourage me to dance. Sometimes they vented to other advanced students and fellow peers about certain difficulties dealing with people but who doesn't do that?
Yogalholic
Changui
This is exactly what I'm saying and I agree with you that we should blame more the bad attitude of women than the advanced man and it should also be part of the teacher's job to detect that kind of problems.
An advanced lead could be a good dancer but not necessarily a good exercises partner for women.
Of course it is not always true, for example I was the worst lead in my urbankiz class but I didn't feel bad about
it, every one in the class were benevolent with each other. Being surrounded with better men emulated me positively and women were more involved with me. Of course it happened because the teacher were really demanding with women and didn't allowed them to half ass like I see in so many other schools
Dissonant Harmony
Son Montuno
1. Personally, I love classes.
The venues in my area almost always offer open classes (right before the socials) included in the entry free, so why not? It's fun, and you get to pass some time and even mingle a bit.
2. It supports the "new generation": You go there and show them that they can feel comfortable dancing with you, despite the level gap - you are there to socialize and have fun, even with beginners. (in addition, though not always acceptable, advanced dancers can also contribute to classes by "innocently" asking good questions, offering their own insights or giving tips to fellow beginners).
3. It sells you.
Dancers come and go: Most of them quit early; Most of those who stay - retire within a just a few years. As you grow in the community - you get to know people: Some of them will become your usual go-to partners that you get along with and seek out first when you want to dance... And the rest might be newbies that you haven't bothered knowing (because you had your own circle of usuals and friends), or familiar faces that you have learned to avoid. But if you stay for long enough - you will eventually live to see your "usuals" leaving. Congratulations - you are now that slightly old, advanced guy who spends his socials dancing with his very limited pool of other old, advanced friends... Or standing alone, because there are not many of those left. Do you think the newer "generations" will approach you? They have their own usuals... You are not their priority - get in like. Beginners? They will stick to their friends from classes. Sure, if you can swallow your ego or be friendly and comfortable to approach the newer generations and break the ice - it might work. But the truth is - you can be advanced and insecure (!) -
Bottom line: If you want to keep being relevant in your scene - you need to keep making friends, and classes present a great opportunity to approach new dancers and comfortably get involved with them.
The venues in my area almost always offer open classes (right before the socials) included in the entry free, so why not? It's fun, and you get to pass some time and even mingle a bit.
2. It supports the "new generation": You go there and show them that they can feel comfortable dancing with you, despite the level gap - you are there to socialize and have fun, even with beginners. (in addition, though not always acceptable, advanced dancers can also contribute to classes by "innocently" asking good questions, offering their own insights or giving tips to fellow beginners).
3. It sells you.
Dancers come and go: Most of them quit early; Most of those who stay - retire within a just a few years. As you grow in the community - you get to know people: Some of them will become your usual go-to partners that you get along with and seek out first when you want to dance... And the rest might be newbies that you haven't bothered knowing (because you had your own circle of usuals and friends), or familiar faces that you have learned to avoid. But if you stay for long enough - you will eventually live to see your "usuals" leaving. Congratulations - you are now that slightly old, advanced guy who spends his socials dancing with his very limited pool of other old, advanced friends... Or standing alone, because there are not many of those left. Do you think the newer "generations" will approach you? They have their own usuals... You are not their priority - get in like. Beginners? They will stick to their friends from classes. Sure, if you can swallow your ego or be friendly and comfortable to approach the newer generations and break the ice - it might work. But the truth is - you can be advanced and insecure (!) -
Bottom line: If you want to keep being relevant in your scene - you need to keep making friends, and classes present a great opportunity to approach new dancers and comfortably get involved with them.
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AlejandroKubano
Changui
- Update -
I started attending beginner level classes because my other school was doing a poor job. Now I was on the other end of the spectrum & all I can say is that I was sadly 110% spot on with my assumption. Beginner level follows constantly complaining about beginner level leads because they did not understand the move in a Naruto Sharingan I-got-it-perfect-on-first-try level, then they come to you and they're all smiles & are like "wow first time someone actually lead me right". It actually feels as dirty as I thought I'd feel, except I am not an old timer slimeball seeking new level follows because the scene got too same-same. Still gonna keep going here, the difference is becoming less now but (man) I was so right.
And no, it is not even about flirting, it is about a lack of respect & abundance of expectations that beginner follows put on beginner leads. I assume this is the reason why most drop out early.
I started attending beginner level classes because my other school was doing a poor job. Now I was on the other end of the spectrum & all I can say is that I was sadly 110% spot on with my assumption. Beginner level follows constantly complaining about beginner level leads because they did not understand the move in a Naruto Sharingan I-got-it-perfect-on-first-try level, then they come to you and they're all smiles & are like "wow first time someone actually lead me right". It actually feels as dirty as I thought I'd feel, except I am not an old timer slimeball seeking new level follows because the scene got too same-same. Still gonna keep going here, the difference is becoming less now but (man) I was so right.
And no, it is not even about flirting, it is about a lack of respect & abundance of expectations that beginner follows put on beginner leads. I assume this is the reason why most drop out early.
AlejandroKubano
Changui
Yes, you are correct. As a beginner, I have found my motivation purely in older followers. Were it not for them, I probably would not have kept this up because the way that beginner follows treat beginner leads is with a total lack of understanding & care; and a big part of that is their expectations set by far more experienced leads.
If you see my comment that I just made, you will see that I was on the other end of the spectrum & experienced far better treatment. Even though I feel much better about myself, I still firmly believe that advanced dancers should not be allowed in beginner level classes. "Practicing my fundamentals" excuse is utter bull, if people just said "i am kinda tired of seeing same faces and i wanna dance & have a good time with someone new" I'd respect them more. Like yeah, cool, the class starts with a warm up and you barely shift your body, I see you are so busy studying your fundamentals.....
I actually think having a mixed level of dancers in beginner class would really help everyone, but of course, there should be more advanced followers who can also help out the beginner leads than the other way round, only dancing with beginners can make and form, and reinforce bad habits. And yes as someone stated before it is part of the teacher's job to maintain a positive attitude in the class. Also, it is much harder for an advanced follow to dance with beginner leads and make it work than the other way round, so you are asking the beginner followers to do a seemingly impossible job for them. I am a beginner follow in other dances and they feel like the hardest classes of my life, sometimes it even feels like a torture...(although I don’t remember how it feels for my first salsa classes they were a rosy distance memory now, but yeah beginner hell sucks I agree)
having higher-level dancers there to help out really seemed like a saver, as my school encourages other levels to retake beginner classes to reinforce their foundation and also to help out the beginner students, (if not for them my beginner hell would have suck much more) and I can see the advanced follows really helped out the hopeless beginner leads, who otherwise would not be able to perform any moves on beginner follows.
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D
Deleted member 324432
Guest
Reading this (and every time I take class as a follower) I feel bad for the followers. It's so hard to take anything from a partnerwork class as a follower when the leaders are at the same level of experience.
And I'm thinking again that a staged approach would be better, where everyone starts as follow in stage 1A, then switches to lead in stage 1B, leaving people to specialize in stage 2+. With stage 1 classes made up of one half fresh students as followers, and one half the previous generation as leaders.
And I'm thinking again that a staged approach would be better, where everyone starts as follow in stage 1A, then switches to lead in stage 1B, leaving people to specialize in stage 2+. With stage 1 classes made up of one half fresh students as followers, and one half the previous generation as leaders.
This is a really good idea! And ditch the gender role
I think I few places I been to they regularly ask higher level leads and follows to help out in the beginner classes doing the opposite role.
But what if someone says I don’t want to follow/lead? Some kind of balancing needs to happen in the background (more work for the teacher)
1derpalm
Son Montuno
Head asploday