Fundamental questions about "on 2" and "on 1" from musical point of view

[Latinjazz]

Here are some questions that have arisen in my head lately - I hope I'm not repeating an existing thread. At least not that I know.
As I see discussions in all kinds of levels with SF members who think a lot about musical dance aspect - which by the way I really appreciate:
Isn't discussing about musicality and mainly dancing only on 1 or on 2 a contradiction?
If we put musicality in the center, we should adapt our break step in many cases, as musically there is so many styles!
Contradictions I see:
"On 2" is often danced to Puerto Rican Salsa, which often demands "on 1"
"On 1" is very often danced to Cuban Salsa, which in many many cases demands "on 2", mostly when it is Son or Songo-related
"ET on 2" (From what I know about it) Has this laid back ending, related to Jazz, Mambo or any kind of relaxed type of Salsa, but doesn't fit with Salsa dura, PR Salsa - and for sure not Colombian (at least Cumbia flavored) salsa.

Wouldn't it be slowly time to have dance schools combining and teaching all the different styles? And do schools like this exist in your countries?

I'm a sinner myself in those aspects: Usually I dance "on 1", even if the song would demand "on 2" - but sometimes I'm too lazy, sometimes I try in the beginning but change to 1 when I notice "my" follow struggling.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

 

[Smejmoon]

Short answer is yes.
Long answer is that styles are mostly conditioning and social group, nothing to do with musicality. And good musical dancers adjust how they dance, including stepping, to each song and partner. In my experience good dancers dance all popular styles. They have preferences and disbalances, but they'll find something that works for both.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

What are your thoughts on the matter?

My personal opinion is that you should learn what you want to learn and not care what anyone else is dancing to.

As the leader, I dictate the pace and break style for the duration of the song. I have never been stopped in the middle of a dance by a follower because they felt the song demanded to be danced On1, On2, P2, ET2, a tiempo, contratiempo, etc. If I was stopped mid-song, it was to ask me to switch to a different break they were more comfortable with.

Even though I prefer dancing On2, I will never dance On2 just because I feel the song demands it. I would not call that a sin either. It's better to dance On1 with a partner who is more comfortable dancing On1 than to force On2 when they are not comfortable dancing On2.

Going back to your question about having dance schools combining all styles. I could see it working in cities with huge scenes, effectively giving people more options. However, the same strategy would fail miserably in smaller locales with very few dancers.

I was fortunate to learn Salsa in a city with many options, but funnily enough that didn't translate to more musical dancing.

it wasn't until I moved to a smaller city when I discovered more musical dancers. These dancers had much fewer opportunities to learn all the styles yet they were more musical. When you don't care so much about matching styles to songs, you concentrate on just enjoying the dancing.

So despite moving in a city with fewer options and worse teachers, I somehow encountered more musical dancers. People who were starved for dancing, but who aren't so bothered with being right. The enjoyment I feel dancing with such grateful people is undeniably strong.

I see a whole lot of 'dancing On nothing' happening. That is to say, dancers who are dancing off time and are all over the place. It doesn't bother me one bit because as a leader, I can exert my influence and change the whole conversation of partner dancing. And the better you are at it, the more influence you have over everything related to dancing.

 

[Latinjazz]

Let me rephrase: How about for a start: All styles would open the options of dancing on the beat the dance is supposed to be, but learning to step on any other beat?
In theory, that wouldn't be so hard, it's what many Cubans, Dominicanos and Latinos in general often do, and it would open many doors...
Of course, it's a theory, but still - I think it would be a logical evolutionary step of Salsa dancing, opening possibilities for lots of intense dance experiences. (Sounds like a TV ad, but that's just how English is sometimes)
We have all seen Cuban dance teachers starting a dance on "3" or on "5" just because the music demands it - and as often just because they don't give a *** in that moment. And we don't do that - why don't we try?

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Isn't discussing about musicality and mainly dancing only on 1 or on 2 a contradiction?
If we put musicality in the center, we should adapt our break step in many cases, as musically there is so many styles!

I missed this earlier. The crux of the matter. Hmm... no, I do not believe it is a contradiction.

You can be musical and dance on restricted time. Being musical is more about how you are dancing as opposed to what you are dancing.

However, knowing more timings does make one a more versatile dancer. I am all for adapting and changing break styles to suit different songs if that is what you desire. But I don't think it is the answer for more musical dancing.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Let me rephrase: How about for a start: All styles would open the options of dancing on the beat the dance is supposed to be, but learning to step on any other beat?
In theory, that wouldn't be so hard, it's what many Cubans, Dominicanos and Latinos in general often do, and it would open many doors...
Of course, it's a theory, but still - I think it would be a logical evolutionary step of Salsa dancing, opening possibilities for lots of intense dance experiences. (Sounds like a TV ad, but that's just how English is sometimes)
We have all seen Cuban dance teachers starting a dance on "3" or on "5" just because the music demands it - and as often just because they don't give a *** in that moment. And we don't do that - why don't we try?

It's hard enough to get people to dance on standard timing. Why make it harder by giving them more options?

I could see this being implemented in a workshop but not for Beginner Salsa.

A variation of this is teaching how to dance to different instruments, which is already being taught by some teachers. I think learning how to dance to different instruments is more beneficial than learning to dance on some obscure counts

 

[Smejmoon]

It's hard enough to get people to dance on standard timing. Why make it harder by giving them more options?

I could see this being implemented in a workshop but not for Beginner Salsa.

A variation of this is teaching how to dance to different instruments, which is already being taught by some teachers. I think learning how to dance to different instruments is more beneficial than learning to dance on some obscure counts

It's Saturday night here, but I'm wondering if this standard count business is just pattern teaching tool taken too far. It does simplify the choreographies, so it's easier to memorize long sequences. But in reality salsa music is not one or two rhythms. And it has so many instruments and melodies in each song that everyone can find something on each beat to express. But probably focusing on basic dancing skills, like movement, balance, coordination, partner interaction is boring and does not sell. And routines that can be memorized and even performed on stage do bring money and return customers.

 

[Smejmoon]

Also salsa history has many examples when one style of dance is applied to different styles of music and different styles of dance to one style of music. Sometimes it works, sometimes result is weird, if you're not conditioned to accept that norm.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

It's Saturday night here, but I'm wondering if this standard count business is just pattern teaching tool taken too far. It does simplify the choreographies, so it's easier to memorize long sequences. But in reality salsa music is not one or two rhythms. And it has so many instruments and melodies in each song that everyone can find something on each beat to express. But probably focusing on basic dancing skills, like movement, balance, coordination, partner interaction is boring and does not sell. And routines that can be memorized and even performed on stage do bring money and return customers.

Interesting idea. The idea of keeping time does seem to favor pattern-heavy learning. Then you have performance routines which are totally based on strict timing.

I am curious how people's dancing would be different if no one learned how to count and were just taught to listen to specific instruments.

I wonder if it would affect the ability to transpose break steps and also affect how people express music (aka musicality)

 

[Offbeat]

Here are some questions that have arisen in my head lately - I hope I'm not repeating an existing thread. At least not that I know.
As I see discussions in all kinds of levels with SF members who think a lot about musical dance aspect - which by the way I really appreciate:
Isn't discussing about musicality and mainly dancing only on 1 or on 2 a contradiction?
If we put musicality in the center, we should adapt our break step in many cases, as musically there is so many styles!
Contradictions I see:
"On 2" is often danced to Puerto Rican Salsa, which often demands "on 1"
"On 1" is very often danced to Cuban Salsa, which in many many cases demands "on 2", mostly when it is Son or Songo-related
"ET on 2" (From what I know about it) Has this laid back ending, related to Jazz, Mambo or any kind of relaxed type of Salsa, but doesn't fit with Salsa dura, PR Salsa - and for sure not Colombian (at least Cumbia flavored) salsa.

Wouldn't it be slowly time to have dance schools combining and teaching all the different styles? And do schools like this exist in your countries?

I'm a sinner myself in those aspects: Usually I dance "on 1", even if the song would demand "on 2" - but sometimes I'm too lazy, sometimes I try in the beginning but change to 1 when I notice "my" follow struggling.

What are your thoughts on the matter?

It is better to post a specific song from each genre. Then tell us what you feel is the best style to dance it. You may be surprised that others feel different. That is why musicality is subjective. There is no way to define rules for it but you know when you see it.

Lastly in most cases what step you break on is mutually exclusive from musicality. Exceptions being cha cha where let’s say you decide to break on either 1 or 4. That too could theoretically can carried off if you can break using the triple step in 2.5 beats of 8&1 or 4&5. But then again it is a convention within structure of street style cha cha. What if you dance of a different structure to cha cha and make it look musical (e.g. Tango can be easily danced to slower cha cha. Maybe lindy can be danced to faster cha cha).

If a good dancer takes ‘musicality license’ they can break any rules/conventions and still make the dance musical.

 

[Offbeat]

Short answer is yes.
Long answer is that styles are mostly conditioning and social group, nothing to do with musicality. And good musical dancers adjust how they dance, including stepping, to each song and partner. In my experience good dancers dance all popular styles. They have preferences and disbalances, but they'll find something that works for both.

To add to above good dancer can express musicality with his/her own preferred style. Let us say a dancer x is a good dancer and his preferred style is breaking on5. Then no matter the music, he would still be able to express his musicality irrespective of the song, because he/she is basically good at it. At least better than less musicality adept dancer who is good on breaking on any beat from 1 through 8.

Out of curiosity what other dances or dance styles get defined by both break step and which beat the break step is on? Is salsa the only unique in that aspect? [not to be confused with starting dancing on an up or a down beat; or starting/ending moves on particular beat as a convention]

 

[Offbeat]

I am curious how people's dancing would be different if no one learned how to count and were just taught to listen to specific instruments.

Then you are dancing WCS

For teaching purpose it has 6 count patterns and 8 count patterns (also 12 count ones and perhaps more). There is no basic step, but there is a starting step (actually there two or three popular variations of a starting step). However starting step is not necessary and is often used to synch with your partner to get a feel of how they are feeling music. You can add as many pause, slow and quick steps in a sequence any combination you feel the music calls for when dancing. You can use quick, slow and pause combination to accent a particular instrument at that moment. So you may decide that the musical phrase or the particular instrument calls for say continuous 8 or 16 beats/counts of quick steps (or slow steps) on an extreme end. It it gives you an idea of freedom to express musicality.

For people who have danced salsa, at first look WCS leaves them befuddled because after the lesson - they don’t see anyone dancing the basic sequences as they were taught in the lesson; they can’t copy or mimic other dancers because their pattern recognition fails to recognize any inherent structure (because there isn’t any in first place) of repeating theme they can latch on to; the patterns look very familiar to leaders but they struggle to lead those unless they use force; pauses and slow rhythm changes by the partner (not the music) goes against keep dancing at the tempo of the song habit from salsa; etc. But there are a lot of commonalities - both are based on concept of slot and line; many moves and patterns are the same; you can build vocabulary of stringing together a series of moves and sequences; turns and spins; redirection; etc.

 

[1derpalm]

My personal opinion is that you should learn what you want to learn and not care what anyone else is dancing to.

As the leader, I dictate the pace and break style for the duration of the song. I have never been stopped in the middle of a dance by a follower because they felt the song demanded to be danced On1, On2, P2, ET2, a tiempo, contratiempo, etc. If I was stopped mid-song, it was to ask me to switch to a different break they were more comfortable with.

Even though I prefer dancing On2, I will never dance On2 just because I feel the song demands it. I would not call that a sin either. It's better to dance On1 with a partner who is more comfortable dancing On1 than to force On2 when they are not comfortable dancing On2.

Going back to your question about having dance schools combining all styles. I could see it working in cities with huge scenes, effectively giving people more options. However, the same strategy would fail miserably in smaller locales with very few dancers.

I was fortunate to learn Salsa in a city with many options, but funnily enough that didn't translate to more musical dancing.

it wasn't until I moved to a smaller city when I discovered more musical dancers. These dancers had much fewer opportunities to learn all the styles yet they were more musical. When you don't care so much about matching styles to songs, you concentrate on just enjoying the dancing.

So despite moving in a city with fewer options and worse teachers, I somehow encountered more musical dancers. People who were starved for dancing, but who aren't so bothered with being right. The enjoyment I feel dancing with such grateful people is undeniably strong.

I see a whole lot of 'dancing On nothing' happening. That is to say, dancers who are dancing off time and are all over the place. It doesn't bother me one bit because as a leader, I can exert my influence and change the whole conversation of partner dancing. And the better you are at it, the more influence you have over everything related to dancing.

I've definitely been stopped during dances (same city, same teacher) for breaking with my left on 2 and using 2 3 4.5. "Asked what I was doing and said I was doing it wrong). I recently found out their (and my former) teacher tried getting the class to dance the different on 2 styles and they struggled hard with anything other than et2

 

[terence]

There is no basic step, but there is a starting step (actually there two or three popular variations of a starting step).
.

But there is, they are called "foundation ". The timing one may choose to commence or its direction, does not change the steps content ..
The foundational rule of" call and response " has been ever present in latin genre music .

 

[Latinjazz]

It is better to post a specific song from each genre. Then tell us what you feel is the best style to dance it. You may be surprised that others feel different. That is why musicality is subjective. There is no way to define rules for it but you know when you see it.

Legitimate and very good point, absolutely. I will look for vids later, I'm off to work now.
On the other hand music with a strong accent on 2 usually will look strange if you do a strong accent on 1...

 

[Latinjazz]

Lastly in most cases what step you break on is mutually exclusive from musicality.

what? Sorry, I don't understand...

Exceptions being cha cha where let’s say you decide to break on either 1 or 4

Chachacha breaking on 1?

Tango can be easily danced to slower cha cha. Maybe lindy can be danced to faster cha cha

Vade retro, Satanas!!! The master of darkness is in SF!

 

[vit]

Chachacha breaking on 1?

It was actually popular in some social BR dance studios in my venue, but it was eventually abandoned

 

[Latinjazz]

It was actually popular in some social BR dance studios in my venue, but it was eventually abandoned

I've seen it in Spain, too, but I really think it goes against the music.
The only way one can get into it is thinking that the dance is like answering the rhythm, starting a beat later - to me it feels odd... and starting on 3 already feels like experimental avantgarde dance

 

[Latinjazz]

Also salsa history has many examples when one style of dance is applied to different styles of music and different styles of dance to one style of music. Sometimes it works, sometimes result is weird, if you're not conditioned to accept that norm.

Yes, that is legit. But the self-evidence in which everybody keeps their "on 1" "on 2" styles in tunes when it just feels weird puzzles me sometime.

 

[Latinjazz]

Out of curiosity what other dances or dance styles get defined by both break step and which beat the break step is on? Is salsa the only unique in that aspect? [not to be confused with starting dancing on an up or a down beat; or starting/ending moves on particular beat as a convention]

I'm not very sure, but I think lindy hop as a similar principle? Others here may know better...