Followers, how would you want to be told? Would you at all?

M

malcolm

There's a girl on the local scene that I enjoy dancing with. She has a similar skill level to me, at a guess I say she's been learning salsa for about the same time as me.

Now, she can't step through an inline turn to save herself, she sort of whips round in one or two steps, rather than just taking her time. I'm not the best, but even I can spot it, although I've started learning the followers steps too, so that's probably why I notice it so much. That's all cool though, I still enjoy dancing with her, I just try to control her a little by keeping my hand in the right place and at the right pace around her head (but she ignores your lead). I reckon she'd get more enjoyment out of it if she could do those turns properly though; I suspect it would help with other moves too.

We have a little social/practice night tonight, I'll be there with my regular partner... I know my regular partner can do this fundamental pretty well, she has put a bit of effort into learning how to do these basic moves well. I've asked her, and she'd be more than happy to show this other girl the correct way to do it.

So, how do I approach this girl without insulting her, she seems like a really easy going type, so I'm not too concerned, but I'd like to know how you would want to be approached in this situation. Assuming of course that you think she would want to be told, I guess I just sort of assume everyone wants to get better at dancing? I'm pretty sure she does, she takes a few lessons a week.

Funny though, I still love dancing with her, shes pretty wild and really grooves along and gets right into it :D
 
Walk over before you dance, chat a little, smile, giggle and the works, then mention someone on the dance floor doing something great.
whether she agrees or not is not the issue, take a liiiiiiiil pause then tell her that you've noticed that she has a certain way of executing the turn that you find different than other follows.

Start demonestrating what she does, and then what other followers do. Then tell her it is much more comfortable for the lead when done the other way.

Ask her if she would like to try. Whether you get a yer or a no, ask her to dance IMMEDIATELY
 
Hi,

I've started teaching this year and one thing I've definitely noticed is that people generally don't mind being told that something can be done better by someone who teaches. My advice would be to get a teacher and tell them that you suspect she isn't doing it quite right, to have a dance with her and let them broach it with her and offer some advice. Or if you don't know any teachers well just get a friend who's also an advanced dancer - she's much more likely to listen to an advanced dancer than one who's at her level.
 
agreed, be careful, especially if you are at her level. If you do it tactfully it's ok, but i've had guys teach me on the floor and nothing annoys me more (unless it's my teacher being mean but that doesn't count :) ) So i'd probably go with Jag's advice and ask a teacher....
 
You're describing exactly what I used to do!! Somehow I had the idea that fast turns=good turns. Anywho, one lead kindly told me at the end of the dance about this problem, and I have to say I was thankful.

Since you say that she is easy-going and you seem to be on good terms, I would say mention it to her next time you two dance.

If you're afraid of offending her, instead of saying "you're doing this wrong", approach it as "maybe do the turns a little slower so you end up on the right count", and then go through a few with her going slower. I disagree with the pointing to someone who does it better approach, to me that would be more embarrassing.

I'm 100% with Lolita in suggesting that you dance with her right afterward.
 
Unless you are a really good buddies, I'd be careful.

Personally, I welcome and seek critique from instructors but I am not sure that I would always trust the critique coming from the fellow lead, especially if he has a great deal to learn himself...

I always find it funny (if not mildly irritating) when in advanced classes leads who really struggle are trying to tell me what I am doing wrong, while it's their lead that is completely off. But in class I just call the instructor to tell us what is OUR problem.

Anyway, it's a delicate situation...
 
Don't mention anything yourself unless she asks you. Get her teacher to do it if need be.

What you can do is ask her to wait for your lead. Sounds like she is throwing herself into the turn with too much momentum. Asking her to follow your hand more smoothly may help.
 
Thanks for all your ideas and comments :)

I decided to leave it last night, last night was really popular so it was really crowded. I think what I'll do is mention it to my female instructor next week before the lesson, and get her to give her a helping hand when she's partnered with me (I really don't mind taking time out from learning that weeks move to help her with a fundamental). But if there isn't time during the lessons for that (I'll tell the instructor that I'm happy for her to talk to her when she rotates round to me, but..), I'll dance with her afterwards and get her to nab her then :)

She's top fun to dance with and has no trouble following more complicated moves, so it's odd that she struggles with this particular simple one.
 
malcolm said:
Thanks for all your ideas and comments :)

I decided to leave it last night, last night was really popular so it was really crowded. I think what I'll do is mention it to my female instructor next week before the lesson, and get her to give her a helping hand when she's partnered with me (I really don't mind taking time out from learning that weeks move to help her with a fundamental). But if there isn't time during the lessons for that (I'll tell the instructor that I'm happy for her to talk to her when she rotates round to me, but..), I'll dance with her afterwards and get her to nab her then :)

She's top fun to dance with and has no trouble following more complicated moves, so it's odd that she struggles with this particular simple one.
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of course you can't rule out that you're leading it too strong... with that possibiliy in mind, can you ask the instructor to check your lead while you are with this partner? The instructor might home in on your follower, but also might find some detail in your lead you can fix... just a long shot.
 
sweavo said:
of course you can't rule out that you're leading it too strong... with that possibiliy in mind, can you ask the instructor to check your lead while you are with this partner? The instructor might home in on your follower, but also might find some detail in your lead you can fix... just a long shot.
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I'm pretty sure she's not following the lead at all, but that does give me a cunning way to raise the topic, thanks!
 
yeah i would want to be told if I was doing something wrong. But as long as I knew that person quite well. I'd hate for them to point out someone doing it 'correctly' as that would make me feel a bit incompetent and awful like I was being compared to others. But if someone just took me to the side and helped me do it properly then I'd be quite happy to listen.
 
malcolm said:
There's a girl on the local scene that I enjoy dancing with.

I reckon she'd get more enjoyment out of it if she could do those turns properly though; I suspect it would help with other moves too.

but I'd like to know how you would want to be approached in this situation.
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I will say leave her alone (in terms of trying to correct her). Even if she is a good friend. When you are on a social dance floor please never try to correct or even suggest corrections, before or after the dance. I think number #1 rule of social dancing is don't try to teach your partner. No matter how gently you want to suggest, recommend, correct, it is still teaching.

Every rule has an exception:

If you are not social dancing, but strictly practicing then suggestions may be okay. Depends on what your agreed protocol is.

If the partner has mentioned something before that he/she is working on and sought feedback.

If you are trying to do something when dancing socially that you both have practiced before. In this case you both know what you have been practicing and when social dancing the feedback loop is continuing.

If there is a spoken or unspoken understanding between both partners that feedback is welcomed (happens when both share either a long or very strong dancing relationship - members on same dance team, bonds formed as a result of dancing very often, students taking same class for a long time, your connection with them outside the dance floor). It is still a very fine judgment call !!

Even when exceptions apply, the correction should be left to a third party like an instructors, etc. That is don't teach still applies.
 
Yup, I've read that a few times here, so I thought I'd ask the question. Wouldn't worry me in the slightest, I'd even welcome it, but not everyone is as easy going as me. Heaps of good advice here on how to go about it discretely via a third party (i.e. instructor) though :) Thanks all.
 
Offbeat said:
number #1 rule of social dancing is don't try to teach your partner. No matter how gently you want to suggest, recommend, correct, it is still teaching.
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I entirely disagree with this. In my salsa scene at least, we all improve from learning from each other. I feel that our experiences and our dancing would suffer immensely if we all kept quiet about things just out of fear of stepping on someone's toes...

IMHO, it's like seeing your friend with their zipper down. Yes, it will be awkward mentioning it, and for that moment they will be embarrassed, but isn't it better to save them the much greater embarrassment of walking around like that for the rest of the day?

Just using that example to say that in my case, I'd rather be told up front than wonder why people won't dance with me/give me weird looks. I'm a firm believer that a bit of honesty can go a long way.

Of course I'm not saying we should go around pointing at each other saying "WRONG! (and making a buzzer sound)". I support gentle suggestions and comments. I feel that if someone gets pissed off by someone saying "hey, maybe you could try doing your turns a little slower", then why try to learn at all? Isn't learning all about listening, considering, and adjusting?

Just a few thoughts :-)
 
Nicole_de_reve said:
I entirely disagree with this. In my salsa scene at least, we all improve from learning from each other. I feel that our experiences and our dancing would suffer immensely if we all kept quiet about things just out of fear of stepping on someone's toes...

<snip>

Just a few thoughts :-)
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One size never fits all, but I respectfully disagree with you. Social dancing is generally the wrong place to make corrections about your partners, unless they specifically ask you or they are paying you.

While a few people are like you, the vast majority don't take it well based on my observations. They may be nice about it at the time, but they still don't like it in public.

A few factors to consider:

  • The way you correct someone is as important as what you correct.
  • Some people might be working on 6 other things, and they can't correct everything at once. Your new "advice" may or may not help them. (Great instructors learn what not to spotlight during different phases of growth, which is just as important as what they teach now.)
  • Some laid-back people get embarrassed on the floor if they realize you don't like some aspect of their dancing. Now they start thinking about that issue, and others things go wrong.
Again, I've seen some exceptions but overall the dance floor is the wrong place to teach someone, unless they bring it up and actively pursue your advice. It's especially hard if they believe you are close to their level.

If you are dating someone (or would like to) I'd say it's almost never helpful to "teach" your S.O. Let someone else make corrections, you simply tell them the things you like... (another subject for another day...)

BTW - It's often easier to see issues with someone else than correct your own issues. I still don't recommend you teach others on the floor, even though in a few cases it will work fine.
 
Agree with UnlikelySalsero.

Nicole_de_reve said:
<snip> our dancing would suffer immensely if we all kept quiet about things just out of fear of stepping on someone's toes...

IMHO, it's like seeing your friend with their zipper down. Yes, it will be awkward mentioning it, and for that moment they will be embarrassed, but isn't it better to save them the much greater embarrassment of walking around like that for the rest of the day?

Just a few thoughts :-)
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Hmmm....wrong analogies don't help in making the point :) Teaching on dance floor could be like backseat driving or telling someone they need to cut their diet because they are looking fat. Analogies are hazardous, so lets refrain :) Neither is it about stepping on someone's toe.

Many times people are aware of their shortcomings and they might be working on it in the background. Unsolicited advise or suggestion is irritation at best in that case. If they are unaware of their problems, someone will bring it to their notice (& hopefully not while social dancing).

One of the worse things anyone can do is to start offering unsolicited advise in the middle of a dance.
 
Interesting cultural divide here. Nicole are you French? I know the French love to critique and discuss the finer points of things, so I can easily imagine that that kind of discussion is more acceptable in some places than others.
 
sweavo said:
Interesting cultural divide here. Nicole are you French? I know the French love to critique and discuss the finer points of things, so I can easily imagine that that kind of discussion is more acceptable in some places than others.
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I am French, and maybe that does play a part in how I view advice-giving. I think perhaps a larger role is that I dance in Tucson, and the scene is very small, and particularly friendly. So if I receive/give advice, odds are it is from/to a friend, or at the very least someone I'm friendly with.

I'll accept that what works in Tucson doesn't necessarily work elsewhere...
Though I am still curious; why would people be so touchy about getting well-intentioned advice?
 
Nicole_de_reve said:
Though I am still curious; why would people be so touchy about getting well-intentioned advice?
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OK, so on any given night the majority of dances I have are sub par (below my level ; I've been dancing 7 years and teach from time to time). That is, there is always something I spot fundamentally wrong with my partners dancing (everyone, including me, has things they're working on). The left turn problem is common for the majority of beginners/improvers and some intermediates that I dance with.

So that means I would have to correct the majority of the girls I dance with (and do not teach) out on any night. Not much fun in that! Even if they didn't immediately take it wrong they would talk to each other and word would get around about a leader being critical. People go out to socials and clubs to let their hair down and have fun!

The only situations I critique on these days are:

1) When I'm teaching the follower.

2) When it's dangerous for me or other people ; have had my shoulder pulled out quite a few times by overly enthusiastic followers on a CBL/DQN. There's one particular girl I can think of who puts in 5 times the amount of momentum required for CBL turn (she thinks she needs to spin it, rather than step/pivot through it - this is a common problem for some at the beginning) and is borderline dangerous to me and other dancers as she's always losing her balance.

3) When they ask me for correction and then it's still a mindfield if they're not paying you to teach them.

Unfortunately the same lack of awareness that causes them not to be aware of the problem in the first place also makes it much harder to accept anyone pointing it out. So feelings get hurt. Search for threads on "unconscious incompetance" if you don't know what I mean.
 
Nicole_de_reve said:
I am French, and maybe that does play a part in how I view advice-giving. I think perhaps a larger role is that I dance in Tucson, and the scene is very small, and particularly friendly. So if I receive/give advice, odds are it is from/to a friend, or at the very least someone I'm friendly with.

I'll accept that what works in Tucson doesn't necessarily work elsewhere...
Though I am still curious; why would people be so touchy about getting well-intentioned advice?
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If I do give you advice (like recommending you don't give others advice ;)), you may also feel like I'm trying to tell you what to do, and some people
hate that... even if my advice is sound.

You may take it as a sign I believe I'm superior to you. If someone dislikes my advice, they often don't tell me directly, they simply tell their friends that I'm an idiot.

("Can you believe that grey haired guy told me I could spin better if I changed my prep, look at him... he doesn't even know how to chew gum without looking like a cow, and he's trying to 'help me' ... If I wanted his help, I'd ask...")

Just as bad, much of the advice provided at a club is just plain poor advice. It may have worked for the person giving the advice, but then they generalize it believing it will work for everybody. Your advice may be great, but what does the person do when two other people told them the opposite of your technique?

In this context, you asked a specific question, so I have license to provide my point of view. If I word it in a way that sounds like I believe I know it all, most people will ignore my point of view. (I'm the same way...)

It's also possible they got dumped by their S.O. today and just want to dance, and have fun at their current level, even if there is room for improvement.

In the case of my fly being open or my bad breath, that's something I'd prefer to be told. But I can fix both of those issues immediately, with simple actions.

Another example: If your Mom tells you something you should consider changing, how do you take that? It totally depends on the advice, the subject, your mood, your age and your prior interactions. Your Mom clearly wants the best for you, but depending on when, where and how she provides advice, it can be taken very well or very poorly. (Most young adults do NOT listen to their parents, even if the advice later proves to be excellent. Older adults may or may not listen, depending on a host of
factors...)

Again, in a few cases it will work great, but overall I think it does more harm than good. I'd say teaching on the floor is the wrong place to provide assistance, with some exceptions (you are asked or are being paid to provide that advice).

Otherwise just dance and encourage them to do more of the same.

I'll be curious how you feel about my advice, which contradicts your experience and your personal feelings. Do you change your behavior? (I'm giving you great advice... for free!!! ;) :D)

Even when you ask for advice, many of us don't listen to it if we already believe we have the correct approach.
 
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