Follower walked out mid dance and said I was rough - am I bad person?

n00bdancer

Changui
Recently I went to a social (male lead dancing salsa for a bit over a month) and follower walked out mid dance and said “it’s too rough for me”. She did it after I tried to spin the follower by placing pressure on her hip.

I guess I learned this move in class, and I have used the move on followers in past socials. Never received a complaint. Maybe she didn’t like that I touched her hip but my understanding was that it’s a legit move. Now I kind of feel bad for making her uncomfortable as that wasn’t my intention. I didn’t really get to apologize because she just walked out mid dance. When she said that, I only got to react with “ok that’s fine”.

I guess I just won’t use moves like hip leads especially with followers I haven’t danced with before.

It could have also been other components of the dance, as I’m still a beginner, but she specifically ended the dance when I did a hip lead.

Should I feel like a bad person for making a follower feel uncomfortable? Does the follower likely think I’m a bad person?
 
Listen to what she said. She didn't complain about being led by the hip, she complained that your leading is too rough. Work on that.
 
Recently I went to a social (male lead dancing salsa for a bit over a month)
Here's your error: avoid social dance as a male lead the first months. I know some people say opposite, but you've seen the result. Your moves are still very clumsy after one month, that's normal. First you need to reach a certain level before you can expect followers to enjoy dancing with you. Go to classes only. If you ignore my recommendation you will crash again.
 
Here's your error: avoid social dance as a male lead the first months. I know some people say opposite, but you've seen the result. Your moves are still very clumsy after one month, that's normal. First you need to reach a certain level before you can expect followers to enjoy dancing with you. Go to classes only. If you ignore my recommendation you will crash again.

I see the point but still think this is bad advice. The earlier you supplement classes with real world dancing experience the better. And there's a big risk of the gap between class and social growing and missing the right point to dive in to social dancing. Ending up either as one of the dancers that only ever go to class or giving up entirely.

Better options: Go to socials as a group with people from your class. Go to socials with an introductory class and dance a couple dances with the others who take the class.
 
Here's your error: avoid social dance as a male lead the first months. I know some people say opposite, but you've seen the result. Your moves are still very clumsy after one month, that's normal. First you need to reach a certain level before you can expect followers to enjoy dancing with you. Go to classes only. If you ignore my recommendation you will crash again.
Negative. I disagree. Me and may other leads started dancing right away.

You can’t get better unless you social dance.
 
You can’t get better unless you social dance.
Disagree. You can get better also in classes while having a safer space. This you do in any education before you get out into real business.

When I started WCS two years ago I didn't go to any social the first half a year, instead learned my basics until I felt I was tolerable for followers out there. It worked well.

Recommending crash & burn for newbies leads to many quitting after getting traumatized in beginner's hell. I recommend the safe space approach.
 
Disagree. You can get better also in classes while having a safer space. This you do in any education before you get out into real business.
I haven’t witness anyone get better by not social dancing and only doing classes.

Instructors should tell the students in the class to go social dancing.

Last week I was having a short discussion with one of the local instructors who classes seem to be popular. I didn’t know he taught, since I known him as social dancer. The discussion ensued on this very point. He said that he wanted the people in the class to go social dancing while his partner disagreed.

When I started WCS two years ago I didn't go to any social the first half a year, instead learned my basics until I felt I was tolerable for followers out there. It worked well.
Salsa and WCS are different. The WCS has a steeper learning curve.

After first class in WCS, I was talking to a friend who I knew from salsa, while social dancing had started. I had already been dancing salsa for years. A girl approached me and asked for a dance. I said I didn’t know how to dance WCS. She said “but you are here….” So I reluctantly agreed. This was a new WCS social that had started the same month.

That social over the years has bought a lot of young new dancers into WCS. Almost all who take first class, will try to dance atleast a few dances as the social starts afterwards the class. After a month you find more of beginners stay at social for first hour to ninety minutes.

I have seen the dance pattern in salsa. When the class is before the dancing starts. At least here in salsa, it is only afterwards that people figure there is more dedicated classes for salsa and progressive workshops. Social dancing has always been how people new to salsa find out salsa instructors and classes. The classes before social are a way to get people in. While instructors have changed and socials have changed, nothing has changed about these classes. They remain the same in what they teach - basics, CBL, outside turn, and may be CBL with inside turn. The intermediate level will add a few more. Then those are more keen discover that they can sign up for salsa classes which take place in studios. Unless some one dragged a friend to studio class, almost every single social dancer got into salsa by class before social dancing —> social dancing —> salsa classes pipeline. That’s how it was when I started, before I started, and now.

I don’t know how it works in your parts. How did you get into salsa?


Recommending crash & burn for newbies leads to many quitting after getting traumatized in beginner's hell. I recommend the safe space approach.

There is no safe approach. Whether you start social dancing right away or after six months. Going out and asking girls the first time, seeing beginner girls dancing with better leads, dealing with nos (rejections), self doubts, doubting one’s ability, etc are all the same. They don’t change.

From what I witnessed, those who start social dancing earlier are likely to become regulars. Those who wait (and there were guys when I started who wanted to wait), often quit. Sometimes before they get to social dancing. Or a few months after social dancing. Some would come and be too afraid to dance.

If there is a poster child for someone who had approach anxiety, hated asking someone, which means fear of rejection, and perfectionist mindset - it was me. A perfect candidate for safe place approach. I still have approach anxiety. Yet I don’t think I would have progressed as fast as I did had I not gone dancing at least three times a week.

In some sense getting into social dancing is like going through military bootcamp for new recruits into military. Some drop out. Surprising numbers survive, develop mental toughness, and survive or thrive.

P.S. - over the years newbie dancers have asked this question on the SF. Everytime SFers have encouraged to start social dancing rather than avoid it and continue class only approach.
 
Last week I was having a short discussion with one of the local instructors who classes seem to be popular. I didn’t know he taught, since I known him as social dancer. The discussion ensued on this very point. He said that he wanted the people in the class to go social dancing while his partner disagreed.
His partner means follower I guess - that's understandable, for followers it's more of a problem having a rough beginner lead than for leads having a clumsy follower beginner. If you would make an anonymous polling then you would probably find less women in favor of recommending newbie leads to go social dancing. In public they may say "Everybody's welcome!" but then they avoid them by all means.

You have dancing also in class, people are same league. Classes still can be rough though, girls will make you feel it when they dislike your clumsiness. But it is better than night social where you are in the shadow of much better leads.

For me it is also a question of how you treat others: people go social dancing for having fun, and I hate the idea to spoil their enjoying. Others don't mind annoying others. For me I want to learn my basics first, then I go dancing and ask the ladies when I'm acceptable.

Actually my rule of thumb is: I don't want to be worse than the average of followers at a venue. In my side dances I avoid high skill venues until I can be an equal dance partner. I exercise at home and take some privates until I'm ready for high skill environments. For followers it works becoming better by dancing with better leads (I know because it also works for me when I occasionally follow), but as a lead I need to learn my stuff before. Just by social dancing you don't get better - we all know tons of mediocre social dancers who never progressed, not even over a decade.
Unless some one dragged a friend to studio class, almost every single social dancer got into salsa by class before social dancing —> social dancing —> salsa classes pipeline. That’s how it was when I started, before I started, and now.

I don’t know how it works in your parts. How did you get into salsa?
Classes before social exist here but have not this importance. I decided to join a dance school from the start, and I think most here do it this way.
If there is a poster child for someone who had approach anxiety, hated asking someone, which means fear of rejection, and perfectionist mindset - it was me. A perfect candidate for safe place approach. I still have approach anxiety. Yet I don’t think I would have progressed as fast as I did had I not gone dancing at least three times a week.
I never had approach anxiety, but I fear to feel my follower dislikes my leading: "this poorly hidden icy look of annoyance". Instead of experiencing this humiliation again and again I recommend first doing classes and exercise shadow dancing alone at home before starting to go out into the wild. At least that's my approach which works well for me.
 
Disagree. You can get better also in classes while having a safer space. This you do in any education before you get out into real business.

When I started WCS two years ago I didn't go to any social the first half a year, instead learned my basics until I felt I was tolerable for followers out there. It worked well.

Recommending crash & burn for newbies leads to many quitting after getting traumatized in beginner's hell. I recommend the safe space approach.
I totally agree with MamboJazz on this. I think everyone needs to determine what works best for them AND their dance community.

Personally, I felt horrible at my first few socials as I just wasn't ready for partner dance, I was still managing manoevering my own body in the space-time continuum, let alone someone else's! I felt bad for inflicting upon followers, and it actually felt selfish to me, like what I wanted was more important than their experience.

I now have enough muscle memory to lead dances without being in my head and so I can enjoy what I can do and consider how to make it enjoyable for the follow. There's a basic level that makes this possible, and different people arrive there on different timelines. Social dancing is now enjoyable for both sides, I like to think, as opposed to not.

As a female lead, I get a lot of followers confiding in me, in a way they would never/very infrequently do with male leads. 3 times per social someone will come up to me and vent that the leader they just danced with was horribly out of time, rough and forcing the lead, or smelled horrible/was creepy. Now, as a result, I have tried to minimise those traits in my dancing, and I like to think my dance partners would be able to comment if not to me. But I have to state that I'm not the usual lead.

I think it's essential for newer leads to start by focusing on themselves and their own dancing, and considering the followers needs wants and requirements. I don't think the latter is focussed on in many classes. What you don't know you don't know, right.
 
I haven’t witness anyone get better by not social dancing and only doing classes.

Instructors should tell the students in the class to go social dancing.

Last week I was having a short discussion with one of the local instructors who classes seem to be popular. I didn’t know he taught, since I known him as social dancer. The discussion ensued on this very point. He said that he wanted the people in the class to go social dancing while his partner disagreed.


Salsa and WCS are different. The WCS has a steeper learning curve.

After first class in WCS, I was talking to a friend who I knew from salsa, while social dancing had started. I had already been dancing salsa for years. A girl approached me and asked for a dance. I said I didn’t know how to dance WCS. She said “but you are here….” So I reluctantly agreed. This was a new WCS social that had started the same month.

That social over the years has bought a lot of young new dancers into WCS. Almost all who take first class, will try to dance atleast a few dances as the social starts afterwards the class. After a month you find more of beginners stay at social for first hour to ninety minutes.

I have seen the dance pattern in salsa. When the class is before the dancing starts. At least here in salsa, it is only afterwards that people figure there is more dedicated classes for salsa and progressive workshops. Social dancing has always been how people new to salsa find out salsa instructors and classes. The classes before social are a way to get people in. While instructors have changed and socials have changed, nothing has changed about these classes. They remain the same in what they teach - basics, CBL, outside turn, and may be CBL with inside turn. The intermediate level will add a few more. Then those are more keen discover that they can sign up for salsa classes which take place in studios. Unless some one dragged a friend to studio class, almost every single social dancer got into salsa by class before social dancing —> social dancing —> salsa classes pipeline. That’s how it was when I started, before I started, and now.

I don’t know how it works in your parts. How did you get into salsa?




There is no safe approach. Whether you start social dancing right away or after six months. Going out and asking girls the first time, seeing beginner girls dancing with better leads, dealing with nos (rejections), self doubts, doubting one’s ability, etc are all the same. They don’t change.

From what I witnessed, those who start social dancing earlier are likely to become regulars. Those who wait (and there were guys when I started who wanted to wait), often quit. Sometimes before they get to social dancing. Or a few months after social dancing. Some would come and be too afraid to dance.

If there is a poster child for someone who had approach anxiety, hated asking someone, which means fear of rejection, and perfectionist mindset - it was me. A perfect candidate for safe place approach. I still have approach anxiety. Yet I don’t think I would have progressed as fast as I did had I not gone dancing at least three times a week.

In some sense getting into social dancing is like going through military bootcamp for new recruits into military. Some drop out. Surprising numbers survive, develop mental toughness, and survive or thrive.

P.S. - over the years newbie dancers have asked this question on the SF. Everytime SFers have encouraged to start social dancing rather than avoid it and continue class only approach.
Honestly, not sure if I should go to socials anymore. I’m kind of anxious because in the past few socials, I’ve had a couple of bad dances, with followers leaving mid dance.

I’m trying to simplify the moves that I use in a social but I think the main problem is that they don’t just like how smoothly I turn the follower. I prep but I don’t think followed like the force at which I turn them. Either it’s too soft or too hard.

What do I do?
 
Perhaps work on turning yourself, paying attention to your weight shift. And mime being a follow with it.
When you understand the role of follower, practice leading the followers weight shift. But use your body. On turns, tbh there should be hardly any tension. Just guidance.
 
What do I do?

Only a couple of bad dances is on par.

Have you discusses this experience with your instructora. They are in better position to help you and evaluate what is wrong. Or may be nothing is wrong. May be you are putting more force with arms or arm leading. Given you are taking so many classes, it is easy to discuss this specific issue with your regular instructor either before the class or after.

Try following in the class. You will get a feel of how different beginnet leaders lead and what they do wrong.

Do your class give time to dance two or three songs after the class? Ask a few followers to dance after the song and give you feedback. If they are not beginners, the better.
 
Only a couple of bad dances is on par.

Have you discusses this experience with your instructora. They are in better position to help you and evaluate what is wrong. Or may be nothing is wrong. May be you are putting more force with arms or arm leading. Given you are taking so many classes, it is easy to discuss this specific issue with your regular instructor either before the class or after.

Try following in the class. You will get a feel of how different beginnet leaders lead and what they do wrong.

Do your class give time to dance two or three songs after the class? Ask a few followers to dance after the song and give you feedback. If they are not beginners, the better.

We dance the combo learned in class to a few songs.
 
We dance the combo learned in class to a few songs.
Thr is the problem imo. Becaus ethe follows will go on auto pilot and you do t really learn to lead. I had the problem for 2 years tbh. Unfortunately it gives you a false sense of your leading ability. Socially, people learn at different schools with micro differences in the lead or follow. If you do it with people from your own clas, it becomes choreographed, not lead follow.
D3finitely keep nit simple. Start with your most basic figures, and only do the more complex ones much later jn the song, after r you have had the feel.out process. You might not even get to that point int he dance (to do your complex stuff) but it's better to keep it simpler Ryan to expose yourself too much (I don't follow my own advice).
 
Given you are taking so many classes

Maybe that is the problem.

Taking so many classes at once you can't hardly get your facts straight.

Taking a lot of classes when you can't yet judge your own ability to assimilate learnings is a fool's errand.

A month is nothing. But I remember after 4 weeks I was already going social dancing and enjoying it. But I was also enjoying classes and felt a lot of congruence between the two settings. Having a good initial introduction to partner dancing was crucial.

But I also knew a lot of people who couldn't yet have good dancers a month in. It's like no matter what they tried it just didn't click.

Encouragement also plays a big role. Being left in the middle of a dance as a month old beginner is traumatic. Some people turn that into rage fuel and get better quickly. It seemed like all of my teachers had a traumatic experience. Hearing those stories also helped me reinforce my resolve to power through beginner hell.
 
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Thr is the problem imo. Becaus ethe follows will go on auto pilot and you do t really learn to lead. I had the problem for 2 years tbh. Unfortunately it gives you a false sense of your leading ability. Socially, people learn at different schools with micro differences in the lead or follow. If you do it with people from your own clas, it becomes choreographed, not lead follow.
D3finitely keep nit simple. Start with your most basic figures, and only do the more complex ones much later jn the song, after r you have had the feel.out process. You might not even get to that point int he dance (to do your complex stuff) but it's better to keep it simpler Ryan to expose yourself too much (I don't follow my own advice).
Thr is the problem imo. Becaus ethe follows will go on auto pilot and you do t really learn to lead. I had the problem for 2 years tbh. Unfortunately it gives you a false sense of your leading ability. Socially, people learn at different schools with micro differences in the lead or follow. If you do it with people from your own clas, it becomes choreographed, not lead follow.
D3finitely keep nit simple. Start with your most basic figures, and only do the more complex ones much later jn the song, after r you have had the feel.out process. You might not even get to that point int he dance (to do your complex stuff) but it's better to keep it simpler Ryan to expose yourself too much (I don't follow my own advice).
Yeah makes sense. I have been following this advice and have been seeing good results. I start with simpler moves and then once the follower feels comfortable move on to more complex stuff. Sometimes I run through most of my database and I’m left reaching for moves at the end but often I don’t even get through my entire arsenal.

In regards to classes, I said we do go over a combo but I think the some instructors at my dance studio have started to make class more narrowly focused on a specific technique.

When I started a month ago, it was just like yeah doing this combo with some different moves at beginning of class. Now, what some instructors do is during the class they just focus on one specific like left turns, right turns, enchuflas, copas etc. Then we go over a combo primarily based around the specific move we focused on.

I think this has been pretty effective. For example, I wasn’t really that comfortable with left turns because I didn’t really get how to do clean prep and signal mechanics. Now, I can do left turns for the follower much more naturally and my follower satisfaction in social dancing has shot up just by incorporating left turns rather than just right turns.

Maybe I just need to focus on the core moves I know know and just keep extending my arsenal by finding variations?
 
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