That's obvious. The point is - she was successful as a local teacher as well.
Festival and Travel Planner 2025
- Thread starter azana
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I feel there's also a cultural/environmental aspect. Many Russians I know seem to enjoy training hard and get plenty of inspiration from local teachers.
There are a lot of places where mediocrity in teaching is the norm and that is also reflected in the level of local dancing. But whether that's a problem with the locals or the teachers I don't know. Probably a bit of both but I know that without a sufficient pool of motivated local students, teachers cannot thrive.
By motivated locals I mean those who want to improve and gain a firm understanding of the fundamentals. As opposed to learning for fun. The former doesn't seem to exist in many places.
I recently heard a dancer in a video stating that east europeans have the mentality to work hard in dancing. There must be some truth in it, because I never met a bad follower from Ukraine for example: they all have good technique (but maybe ambitious people also are more likely to emigrate, while the ambitionless stay in their home town and so I don't meet them).
If you need to struggle to get a better life you will be more likely to become really good in what you are doing. If your parents are located in a rich country all you need to do is follow the normal path and you will have a good life - why be more ambitious? In economically weaker countries (e.g. eastern europe) you need to fight harder. At the next soccer world championship look at the northern european teams and the player's names: more than half of them obviously have an immigrant background - much more then percentage in the regarding population. Seems they trained harder.
I was careful not to generalise and say all 'Eastern Europeans'. Especially since I live in an Eastern European country and the dancing here as well as the mentality surrounding Latin dancing is pathetic. Hard work and dancing are two words that don't associate with the locals.
However in Moscow and St. Petersburg the level is high and there are many unknown gems just waiting to be discovered, plus many more in other cities in Russia.
That is not the case here. There are ZERO unknown gems. Mostly everyone is content with staying bad. Which makes sense since there are no good teachers. Also, the immigrant Cubans don't care to raise the level of the locals. Being exotic is their USP and to keep it like that, they must keep their dancing mystified.
Gotta understand that most of salsa schools are basically a daycare for adults. Similar like after school education for kids, it's often not about learning, but to keep them off streets, tvs, phones. Some exercising, socializing. Not everyone wants to work hard after working hard all day. Or become a couch potato. Dance class is a middle ground, and feels good. Almost like dancing.
I feel you, I see the same here. Most guys zero progress since I saw them pre-covid. I have a tensed relation to half of my former instructors: I got better since I left their dance school.
Of course l learned lots of later useful stuff there, but I would have never set the puzzle together if I had stayed there.This.
Sure, me too I went some years after work to dance school mostly for doing some sport and meet some people. But moving physically after a long day sitting in the office is not hard work, it's fun. I just wondered why I didn't make progress, but unless you're a pretty young girl nobody will give a sh*t about you making progress or not.
desconocida
Son
I guess there's a bit of a misunderstanding: I didn't imply that you need to feed any (existing or nonexisting, that's debatable) competition drive, I meant that social salsa is not challenging enough from a dance perspective. There are certainly very challenging aspects to it, but purely dance-wise, thought as a physical activity, it is fairly easy, you progress much faster than in many other dance forms and at least if understanding and copying movement comes easy to you, it is easier to replicate with less training than, say, ballet, contemporary, or even ballroom/latin.
I was first irritated about the "social dance is fairly easy". Beginner's hell in social dance is psychologically tough, so not many would subscribe to this description.
But I get what you mean: as a physical activity social dance is not comparable to "no pain no gain" sports. I never suffered from my social dance training, it's fun. As a teenager I did team sports and the coach tortured as until we were nearly puking. In some olympic sports you see them often collapsing after the finish line - me doing some shadow dancing at home is not the same league.
In contrary to social dance the show dancers throw each other around which is physically demanding, can cause injuries etc. A DJ me told years back he saw Tropical Gem doing one hour warm-up before shows - without this warm-up injuries would happen when doing the throws etc. Another pro couple told me that the lead suffered from back pain long time - they finally stopped the throwing elements completely because of that, realizing that shows can be impressing also without throwing. And I guess a russian ballet trainer is tougher than a salsa instructor.
So yes, maybe some youngsters are attracted to the Rocky Balboa hard training thing and like to train hard physically.
I would subscribe to the idea that Latin social dancing is fairly easy.
But learning how to move, understanding and implementing the mechanics behind latin dancing (irrespective of which style you dance), and then getting a good enough sample approval size that what I'm doing is something that one can aspire to, took me the better part of my adult life learning how to do.
This is coming from the perspective of someone who thinks this all somehow matters in the end. Since I've accepted the process of learning how to become a better dancer as a lifestyle choice.
But anyone who doesn't care to seek this level of granularity in their dancing probably thinks we're all weird anyway.
Purely social dancers spend hours upon hours honing their craft. Most of them are teachers themselves, doing eveything professionals do, but list dancing as their passion rather than their career. They wouldn't say social dancing is easy, especially if one aspire's to be a TOP social dancer that comes with all the perks associated with being at the top of the food chain.
I've seen professional ballet dancers struggle mightily with learning Latin street dance movement. I don't think they would say that Salsa dancing is easy, either. They're perfectionistss at heart, and so also want to be in top form when social dancing.
Anyone getting into high performance level territory probably thinks differently about social dancing. They probably think it's not as important as perfecting a piece of dance choreography. I would say not every social dancer can become a good performer, but a good performer can become a very good social dancer. But this is due to their work ethic and resolve rather than their chosen curriculum. Many social dancers don't have the drive to improve past a certain point.
Oh boy this is a long tangent.
But learning how to move, understanding and implementing the mechanics behind latin dancing (irrespective of which style you dance), and then getting a good enough sample approval size that what I'm doing is something that one can aspire to, took me the better part of my adult life learning how to do.
This is coming from the perspective of someone who thinks this all somehow matters in the end. Since I've accepted the process of learning how to become a better dancer as a lifestyle choice.
But anyone who doesn't care to seek this level of granularity in their dancing probably thinks we're all weird anyway.
Purely social dancers spend hours upon hours honing their craft. Most of them are teachers themselves, doing eveything professionals do, but list dancing as their passion rather than their career. They wouldn't say social dancing is easy, especially if one aspire's to be a TOP social dancer that comes with all the perks associated with being at the top of the food chain.
I've seen professional ballet dancers struggle mightily with learning Latin street dance movement. I don't think they would say that Salsa dancing is easy, either. They're perfectionistss at heart, and so also want to be in top form when social dancing.
Anyone getting into high performance level territory probably thinks differently about social dancing. They probably think it's not as important as perfecting a piece of dance choreography. I would say not every social dancer can become a good performer, but a good performer can become a very good social dancer. But this is due to their work ethic and resolve rather than their chosen curriculum. Many social dancers don't have the drive to improve past a certain point.
Oh boy this is a long tangent.
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I can feel that (without being a pro). Since two years I learn WCS, and despite all my effort and knowledge about how to learn well I have the eyes to see I am still no more than mediocre. It takes years to get really into the groove and have a good posture always, and I can imagine it takes long until a ballett dancer gets a grounded stepping in salsa.
Who said that? None of the social dancing is easy. You have to move yourself, along with the partner, while making sure you are not knocking others around you. Cognitively it is one of the most complex tasks. You have music, to which you have to move and also in response to a partner, while maintaining your balance, by throwing off your partner off balance, keeping a constant distance, etc. Sounds easy to you ?
As now is known to most social dancers, multiple research studies suggest that partner dancing is best activity to delay onset of dementia. Better than crossword or chess. You agitating against a misplaced notion in your mind. If it was easy why would there be such a high dropout rate in the beginner phase.
No pain no gain applies to social dancing too. Less physical but more psychological pain.
You are lucky or you didn’t train hard.
That’s on the coach who was literally abusing you. A dance coach can do that too. I have seen people quit classes because instructor is being tough.
Apples and oranges?
Performances are a dance sport. You have to be athletic and in good form. That’s why we say performing and social dancing are two different skills.
You can say social dancing requires endurance. Many performers don’t last on the social dance floor as long as hardcore social dancers.
Apples and oranges again.
Lure of being on performance team is to be in the stage and the being part of a social circle. It is not really attraction to hard training. Those who compete it is about gaining recognition. Hard training is a means to the goal.
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
Ah ok, so up to 75k for entertainment only. Fair enough. If many artists are local or get a fixed amount and buy their own airfare, that could fit in that budget. If there are a lot of international artists flying long distance, that could be tight.
I did not say this or any other congress is not profitable but if they did not have all those performers paying for performer passes the economics would not work at all. By my estimate, the performers are a larger share of the pass sales revenue than non-performer attendees if the congress is in the US.
European congresses have a few huge advantages. Many can access public spaces and claim cultural activity that lets them use the function space almost for free. They would have to pay for the cleanup crews and guarantee that there is no damage. That does not exist in the US. Nothing is free here - ever.
bailar y tocar
Son Montuno
On the topic as to why people join performance teams.
I know of a few people who very rarely social dance. For them dancing = performing. I know several people in badminton, bicycle racing and a few other sports that I know about that feel the same way. They have less interest in just doing the sport for its own sake. They want a competition in a league or a tournament or a presentation or an acknowledgement or a validation. Even people who play pick-up games only can at times be very competitive. For people like that, they only want to play with or against other advanced players at the highest level they can play at.
My take on people who are focused on competition in sports or who are focused on presentation in dance: they are perfectionists. The idea that one goes out and does something, improvises and it does not turn out well does not appeal to them.
That said, I have on rare occasion played badminton with very advanced players against other very advanced players. As I am only intermediate, those players could easily score consecutive points just by clobbering me. But they don't do that. They smash on the other advanced players and just hit normal shots if they even hit towards me at all. It is the badminton equivalent of an advanced dancer dancing with a beginner.
I know of a few people who very rarely social dance. For them dancing = performing. I know several people in badminton, bicycle racing and a few other sports that I know about that feel the same way. They have less interest in just doing the sport for its own sake. They want a competition in a league or a tournament or a presentation or an acknowledgement or a validation. Even people who play pick-up games only can at times be very competitive. For people like that, they only want to play with or against other advanced players at the highest level they can play at.
My take on people who are focused on competition in sports or who are focused on presentation in dance: they are perfectionists. The idea that one goes out and does something, improvises and it does not turn out well does not appeal to them.
That said, I have on rare occasion played badminton with very advanced players against other very advanced players. As I am only intermediate, those players could easily score consecutive points just by clobbering me. But they don't do that. They smash on the other advanced players and just hit normal shots if they even hit towards me at all. It is the badminton equivalent of an advanced dancer dancing with a beginner.
I was always curious how someone can learn both WCS movement with Salsa movement without mixing the two together. It seems impossible that they would not influence the other (moreso WCS movement influencing Salsa than the other way around)
Salsa has a natural swing/bounce while WCS seems very levelled on the z-axis (no up and down movement)
I don't think it's like that for all styles of salsa and wcs
I guess experienced eyes can always see a dancer's background, same as one can normally see if someone dances more salsa or bachata. I wouldn't mind if somebody would tell me he recognizes the salsero in me - I am salsero. Some things familiar I handle well in WCS (leading turns), but even then after a while I found out in detail it has to be done differently. Things unfamiliar I have to learn step by step like a dumb dance newbie.
The brain needs to rely on enough (muscle) memory, and that takes a long time to build. It's confusing to start two things from scratch in parallel. In my twens I learned both french and spanish and had big problems to separate it while speaking. Years later it was no more a problem: the brain somehow stores it in different places and knows to distinguish. In salsa I run on muscle memory so WCS doesn't interfere. But the very few occasions where a salsa floor and a WCS floor were next to each other at the same event, I had big problems to switch from salsa to WCS. I needed to count and still had trouble to find the groove. Recently for the first time that worked better - after two years.
Locally I know one follower who does both really well, but on celeb level I heard of nobody. One WCS celeb (Leo Lorenzo) is also doing bachata on high level, but despite his artistic moves I can see his feet are not grounded enough in bachata - no critic, just an observation. It's hard to do two dances on the highest level. Also for salsa / bachata(sensual) only a handful can do it (Sara Panero to name one, or DeJon&Clo).
I've danced with Tatiana, she's really good. I went to bachata festival (15 minutes by bicycle) paid and danced couple dances with Gatica. Wow dances each of them, I left right after.
Ataca y La Alemana are great salsa dancers. There is kizomba star who sometimes asks me for salsa in festivals, I forgot name, but amazing dancer. Singaporean wcs, bachata stars are all great in salsa. Troy from Troy and Jorjet puts salsa videos from southern US in YouTube all the time. Both dance great.
Basically there are many pros in other dances who are great salsa dancers, they just barely go to events where they are not paid, so you might not know of them. Also you might not notice until you talk to them, since they will fit in.
Only thing how I can tell WCS dancer is wrist actions. I feel the difference. And they don't know songs too deep.
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You said you arrived at that festival, grabbed Gatica for a few dances and left again? That's the snobbiest thing I ever heard.
Only on SBK festivals they could walk over to that other dance. But WCS pros are outside the SBK circle, so it's very rare they come in touch. I know only two festivals with both, and this is switching back to the threads theme:
Each february there is Euro Dance Festival at the german-french border. It's fun to go from room to room if you know several dances at least somewhat. The next edition for the first time has salsa social until 3 a.m. on weekend (instead of shutting down at 0.30 a.m.), so I hope it will draw a new crowd. For Salsa come teaching Samuel Funflow and Luis Vazquez, and I'm sure Samuel will go explore the other dances.
Each august there is SWOB festival on the french atlantic coast with WCS and Salsa together: I saw photos from Jacopo&Linda talking with WCS stars Jakub&Emeline. From videos posted it seems it's more the followers trying the other dance, because obviously for leading the gap is harder to overcome.
I danced salsa for a long time before dancing WCS. Therefore haven’t experienced it impacting my salsa. First time I danced WCS at a social it was reluctantly after very first lesson. While dancing a follower asked if I was a salsa dancer. I didn’t take that as a compliment. However I never been asked again. Initially I was conscious not to let me salsa impact or wrongly influence my WCS.
But influences can be positive too. I have mentioned it before. Several of my salsa follower friends took to WCS very seriously for 2-3 years. Long before I did and after they had either slowed down or stopped. Their connection in salsa definitely improved after they started WCS. The connection felt much better. At salsa congresses I danced with a few followers who were really good. After the dance I asked if they danced WCS and answer was yes. Sometimes you can feel it.
There is no hip movement in WCS. In all dances you have to push off the ground. It improves your stepping and how the partner feels you.
WCS allows a lot of leeway to style your dance. I have used some of salsa’s upper body movement in WCS and followers have loved it. Most WCS leaders dance with near static upper body or less fluidity in upper body. I dial down the upper body movement by about 50% to 75% compared to salsa. Yeah, no Cuban motion. Keep that at zero.
Most important is keeping the rhythm. Here is where most salsa dancers get confused when dancing WCS initially. You can mix Q and S as you wish. Certain moves like sugar-push and whip have defined Q and S structure. In that too you can get creative. The magic of WCS is you can choose between any sequence of triple steps, slow steps and quick steps. You can also express the triple step rhythm without physically stepping triple steps with your feet. It is difficult to explain in writing how it happens. We do that in cha cha don’t we?
Which WCS moment influences salsa?
WCS has its swing too. As does Tango (most dancing long time don’t have it but most followers feel good when leader is walking with tango swing). To me the swing results from quality of step, associated weight change, and certain disassociation between upper body and lower body starting at hip. Again harder to explain in writing compared to showing it irl.
I don’t consider salsa or WCS bouncy. Lindy hop or jive are bouncing if we have to use than term.