Feedback, criticism and judgement!

[dadada_486]

I'm someone who does a lot of activities other than dance and with those activities im always happy to receive criticism and feedback. With dance, I seem to do this less well. I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's the nature of dance and it just doesn't feel good when you're told a movement is wrong or that your rhythm is off. Of course I'm not talking about feedback from the follower complaining of discomfort. I would definitely respect that, but in the case where my dance is being criticised, I tend to be less receptive.

Prehaps it's also I feel like my ability is being questioned and leaders technically (even beginners) should always know what they are doing and why. When they are told they are not, their confidence takes a hit. Of course, it's a different story if it comes from an instructor or teacher. This is why sometimes I tend not to ask instructors and teachers to dance as it often feels like you are being put to the test, and that she is likely to criticise and judge, however well intentioned that is. That being said, I am starting to be a bit more receptive to this and now dance with a lot of advance followers and teachers. That pressure and awkwardness is ever present though and you just have to get around it. I wonder if anyone else relates to this?

That said, I understand feedback is often how you improve in partner dances. In fact many have said that you are more likely to improve with a dedicated partner who can give you constant feedback in what you are doing and how you are leading her. This is probably why ballroom dancers are able to prefect their skills so much. A reluctance to take feedback and criticism in the way I described above is probably why so many remain in "beginners hell" for so long. This was the case for me in the first and second years.

And lastly you have self-criticism and correction. One way to do that is to have yourself filmed. I have been dancing for four years and have yet to do this. I am quite camera-shy, and sometimes I rather not see myself dance! I think sometimes the psychology of dance and dancers could use some discussion. Perhaps understanding yourself would make you a better dancer.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I'm someone who does a lot of activities other than dance and with those activities im always happy to receive criticism and feedback. With dance, I seem to do this less well. I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's the nature of dance and it just doesn't feel good when you're told a movement is wrong or that your rhythm is off. Of course I'm not talking about feedback from the follower complaining of discomfort. I would definitely respect that, but in the case where my dance is being criticised, I tend to be less receptive.

Can you give specifics about what parts of your dancing are being criticized?

I find Salsa to be one of the more forgiving dances and a lot of things go by unnoticed when they should be addressed.

I've heard stories of tough Salsa instructors being hard on their students, but I've never encountered one. It seems most are laid back and only care about having fun.

Prehaps it's also I feel like my ability is being questioned and leaders technically (even beginners) should always know what they are doing and why. When they are told they are not, their confidence takes a hit. Of course, it's a different story if it comes from an instructor or teacher.

Comments like "you don't know what you're doing" are unhelpful and don't offer anything constructive. That's not criticism. It's pure garbage. It would be very easy for your confidence to take a hit if you heard this kind of comment. Nobody should be accepting comments like that.

Of course, it's a different story if it comes from an instructor or teacher.

You wouldn't be saying that if your teacher was tough with you. It doesn't happen very often in Salsa, but teachers in other disciplines (music for example) often verbally abuse their students and believe me, it's one of the worst feelings in the world to be criticized by your teacher. I made the mistake of accepting the criticism of my teacher when he was being verbally abusive when I was younger, and since then I have been very careful about selecting teachers and accepting their criticism.

In Salsa, we tend to get away with a lot of mistakes that should be corrected sooner. We aren't and so it becomes harder later on to accept criticism.

This is why sometimes I tend not to ask instructors and teachers to dance as it often feels like you are being put to the test, and that she is likely to criticise and judge, however well intentioned that is.

Many people avoid it but it's actually one of the best ways to improve quickly.

I think there is somewhat of a disconnect in reality when it comes to learning Salsa and not wanting to be criticized. Salsa is meant to be fun. Not taken seriously. That's why a lot of people who grew up with it balk at the idea of taking classes because it's no fun to be criticized over something that's not meant to be taken seriously.

But when you get into studio training, you bring in elements foreign to the dance and it morphs into something else. Hierarchies are established. People don't want to dance with beginners. You get performance teams. Competitions. Training syllabuses. The culture of bleeding sweat comes into the picture.

So you end up trying to please too many people, your instructors, your partner, studio trained dancers, and even those who grew up with it start criticizing.. and that's when criticism becomes a problem for your ego.

Unfortunately, I do not think there's an easy way to escape feeling bad when you're criticized. The best you can hope for is to shut off that part of your brain that associates criticism of your dancing as an assault to your self-identity. Learn to detach ego from your dancer identity and you'll be fine.

A reluctance to take feedback and criticism in the way I described above is probably why so many remain in "beginners hell" for so long. This was the case for me in the first and second years.

You nailed it. Beginner's hell is the constant feeling of incompetence. We are already hard on ourselves so any additional outside criticism is seen as destructive and avoided at all costs.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Although I don't condone constant criticism by teachers, having someone point out your mistakes early and constantly can be beneficial.

I was speaking to a dancer friend about this recently. I never took her for someone who cared to take classes in dancing since she's already better than most people around here and is the type that says that taking classes in Salsa is pointless.

However, she mentioned to me that she recently took up Ballet with a strict Ukrainian teacher. This teacher told her things in a very direct manner and it was a shock to her, but she took it as a personal challenge. She said she wouldn't have been able to handle that kind of abuse but since she's used to it at work, she's learned to become resilient.

I found it very interesting because the moment she said her teacher was criticizing her constantly, I immediately thought how I'd never put myself in that situation with dancing. Maybe it's because I've experienced that already with previous teachers and found it unhelpful for what I wanted to accomplish.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[GentleDancer]

I'm someone who does a lot of activities other than dance and with those activities im always happy to receive criticism and feedback. With dance, I seem to do this less well. I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's the nature of dance and it just doesn't feel good when you're told a movement is wrong or that your rhythm is off.

If you refer to sports: it's normal for athletes to fight and have a serious, concentrated face - that's prone for working on your abilities. While dancing is thought to be fun, therefor critics can kill your fun rapidly. Also partner dance is a man/woman interaction - with all that includes. As a male you are programmed to try to impress the females - getting criticized is not what you are aiming for in that interaction. So social dancing is way more complex than training sports with your buddies.

This is why sometimes I tend not to ask instructors and teachers to dance as it often feels like you are being put to the test, and that she is likely to criticise and judge, however well intentioned that is. That being said, I am starting to be a bit more receptive to this and now dance with a lot of advance followers and teachers. That pressure and awkwardness is ever present though and you just have to get around it. I wonder if anyone else relates to this?

I know that awkwardness very well. I never felt relaxed dancing with a teacher, it's an exam situation. As a plus you get criticized by the opposite gender instead of getting approval. It was always too much of critics and I got just confused with it - too much information.

One way to do that is to have yourself filmed. I have been dancing for four years and have yet to do this. I am quite camera-shy, and sometimes I rather not see myself dance! I think sometimes the psychology of dance and dancers could use some discussion. Perhaps understanding yourself would make you a better dancer.

But definitely it helps the most. Get filmed with your mobile, so only you have the video - knowing that helps while looking it. I don't know your skill level, but with four years experience you will see where you can improve.

 

[Smiley79]

Of course depending on the content (way the feedback / "criticism") is provided make the "information useful or not. As mentioned, vague stuff is overall useless: ("it's not good; could be better; you don't know what you are doing; don't put the hand in her face; you have to do it faster, etc. Even "just watch me").

More "constructive" criticism gives clear (specific) guidance: ("raise the arm in an 90 degree 'L' position on turns - not at a 45 degree angle; lead with the energy from the back hand; the move (showing) is done on 1-2. It's additionally very useful to identify what the student is doing correctly; allows them to focus on what needs improvement. When students adapt and do things slightly differently, educating on the creative bounds while keeping the techniques effective help expand their creativity and freedom from monkey patterning. Even having the student switch roles so they can feel what they may be doing creates physical/visceral/practical memory which is more permanent than abstract/theoretical/intellectual memory.

Not everyone "needs" this level of detail (and has different learning styles) however it won't hurt anyone and ensures all the students are at the same pace. In H2H, this was essential to teach. Additionally it helps to clearly instill a sense of competence and maintains retention.

However, we want to recognize that the student has just an equal role to be proactive learners. I question my clients and others in H2H "how committed are you to X?" If one is an avid/passionate/hardcore, then they will learn and work at it until they are highly proficient and adaptable. It allows me to know how much energy I will invest in an individual. From a pragmatic standpoint, its a waste to spend the same amount of energy when the chances of them staying is not good. Different strokes for different folks.

Unless someone is Antisocial, or Narcisstic, people are always self-critical. Being totally honest with yourself about your intentions on the "why"/purpose one does something helps with the dissonance one experiences in their journey. It creates a more linear path to acheiving their own level of self-actualization by divesting their resources toward what is more fulfilling. Not everyone wants or needs the same level of intensity and proficiency. However, not many people are realistic leading to failure.

 

[dress4dance]

If it's Social dance inviroment criticism won't help but definitely discourage a person. Unless it is proposed as a suggestion or a tip from your teacher. If it is more into DanceSport and competition direction, criticism can be a great kick for improvement. Depending on every persons goals and reasons to be in the dance studio.

 

[NPEADS]

Its natural for follows to point out leads mistakes. Unfortunately its hard to say where the miscommunication came from. Even if you fix according to the follow it may not work. Dance connection is emotional. Followers ability to trust the leader and leaders ability to earn that trust is more important than technique.

I think it makes sense to learn a few very limited moves and practice them over with either a lot of people or a few ones that you feel feel comfortable with may work.

I went through a time where some girls would criticize me and I took a private lesson with a good female instructor. She told me she did not find any issue with my lead. Its also how soft your lead it and when and how to start it. Sometimes just doing a few basics and easy beginner moves with a partner can create better connections.

The best way to grow is to find a mentor. Criticism is hard to take. Not everyone has the ability to criticize in a way to suggest real improvements.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Not everyone has the ability to criticize in a way to suggest real improvements.

This. This is why I always listen to what followers have to say about other leaders and try to be mindful of those things.

When I'm sitting and watching others dance, followers will come to me and tell me things they don't like in other leads. They will point out exactly who is doing what and what they don't like about their leading. This type of feedback is good since it tells me what qualities are undesirable.

By far, the number one criticism is roughness. Grabbing hands, dragging, forcibly contorting limbs in awkward positions. I'm always mindful of the importance of being light.

I'd say the second most frequent type criticism I hear is about leading off rhythm or off time.

 

[NPEADS]

This. This is why I always listen to what followers have to say about other leaders and try to be mindful of those things.

When I'm sitting and watching others dance, followers will come to me and tell me things they don't like in other leads. They will point out exactly who is doing what and what they don't like about their leading. This type of feedback is good since it tells me what qualities are undesirable.

By far, the number one criticism is roughness. Grabbing hands, dragging, forcibly contorting limbs in awkward positions. I'm always mindful of the importance of being light.

I'd say the second most frequent type criticism I hear is about leading off rhythm or off time.

I feel behavior, friendship etc are equally important.
IF follows are sharing their stories with you, you are a very advanced lead.

 

[Sabrosura]

By far, the number one criticism is roughness. Grabbing hands, dragging, forcibly contorting limbs in awkward positions. I'm always mindful of the importance of being light.

How this isn't common knowledge by now is mind-boggling, given how frequently follows complain about lead roughness.

In some scenes I've been in (generally lower average level), the majority of the leads are rough. In "typical" scenes, a good chunk of leads are rough.

And in some rare ones -- like Paris -- the majority of leads are light.

I think the lead roughness problem has two key causes:

1) Many leads (including experienced ones) have no idea how rough they actually are -- unless follows tell them (and the more experienced the lead, the less follows are inclined to tell him this -- I had a whole discussion with one of the top leads in Paris about diplomatic ways in which I can tell very experienced leads to be lighter, he suggested some very good lines which I am in the process of testing out when I dance with these guys)

2) There is this persistent myth that inexperienced/unskilled follows need & should get more force to be led; to any leads reading this, memorize this and repeat it over and over before you go dancing:
You can give an extra-clear lead to a beginner follow *without* using more force.

This topic might deserve its own thread so I'll stop here

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I would also say in some cultures, it's more important that the male dancer shows confidence and experience while leading.

I've lost count the number of times where the rough leaders are more often praised and rewarded with repeat dances. I suspect they don't travel outside of their scene very much and remain oblivious to any of their shortcomings. A few foreigners coming into their scene likely won't change anything.

 

[GentleDancer]

How this isn't common knowledge by now is mind-boggling, given how frequently follows complain about lead roughness.

Due to diplomacy it's nearly never spoken out, neither in classes or in social. It's part of the human condition to not speak out your thoughts most of the time, because it causes more trouble than benefits.

The only good place for this are private lessons. If I pay you for criticizing me, you will do
(This editor is also honest: it was constantly criticizing my spelling of "criticising" so I finally changed it to American spelling.)

Even if you tell them: beginner leads have few control over their movements. And later it's hard to tell them.

Men also underestimate the fact they are normally weighing much more. If a man weighing 20 kg more leads me, it can easily feel rough. The first times I got leaded by a man was a crucial experience.

I had a whole discussion with one of the top leads in Paris about diplomatic ways in which I can tell very experienced leads to be lighter, he suggested some very good lines which I am in the process of testing out when I dance with these guys

I'm already fearing the day I meet you.
But chances are we men do not understand diplomatic subcontext.

2) There is this persistent myth that inexperienced/unskilled follows need & should get more force to be led; to any leads reading this, memorize this and repeat it over and over before you go dancing:
You can give an extra-clear lead to a beginner follow *without* using more force.

Yes.
But there is also a persistent myth that you can lead well every beginner follow, mostly maintained by followers.

I would also say in some cultures, it's more important that the male dancer shows confidence and experience while leading.

I've lost count the number of times where the rough leaders are more often praised and rewarded with repeat dances. I suspect they don't travel outside of their scene very much and remain oblivious to any of their shortcomings. A few foreigners coming into their scene likely won't change anything.

If he's a socially high-ranked male, e.g. a celeb, there will be always followers to fight over him. Even when they do not really enjoy the dance they will enjoy being near to him or being on videos with him. That's normal mammal behaviour. But by getting older some of them learn that rough guys may appear appealing but may not be the best choice.

 

[Offbeat]

Due to diplomacy it's nearly never spoken out, neither in classes or in social. It's part of the human condition to not speak out your thoughts most of the time, because it causes more trouble than benefits.

The only good place for this are private lessons. If I pay you for criticizing me, you will do
(This editor is also honest: it was constantly criticizing my spelling of "criticising" so I finally changed it to American spelling.)

Even if you tell them: beginner leads have few control over their movements. And later it's hard to tell them.

Men also underestimate the fact they are normally weighing much more. If a man weighing 20 kg more leads me, it can easily feel rough. The first times I got leaded by a man was a crucial experience.



I'm already fearing the day I meet you.
But chances are we men do not understand diplomatic subcontext.



Yes.
But there is also a persistent myth that you can lead well every beginner follow, mostly maintained by followers.



If he's a socially high-ranked male, e.g. a celeb, there will be always followers to fight over him. Even when they do not really enjoy the dance they will enjoy being near to him or being on videos with him. That's normal mammal behaviour. But by getting older some of them learn that rough guys may appear appealing but may not be the best choice.

Most of what you wrote, I agree but it goes both ways. Giving critical feedback is an art. Receiving it is also an art. For examples I have seen many in USA turned off by instructors who are tough love kind. But all over Asia, they don't mind that type of thing. In my experience I found American female dancers to be most turned off by female instructors giving straight talk critic of their dance habits and telling like it is. Men too with same female instructor, but not as much as women.

I don't think there is a guy out there that says or thinks "I want to be rough lead". Everyone aspires to be smooth.

Mostly it is instructors fault. They should be able to spot rough leads in a group class and correct them. Without calling them out. One way to do it in a few seconds is to show them what it feels and how it should feel. Sometimes I used to play a role of follower in a class. I used that often and it was always well received. and appreciated (unless they were lying). Beginners are not self aware and it helps them to experience the difference than just to be told you are doing xyz rough/wrong/overtly strongly/ or bobbing up/down, etc. Instead if you let them feel the difference it makes a lot of difference. After dancers are experienced, it also depends on who is giving them the feedback (not talking about instructors).

Many times leaders telling followers what they should do or followers telling the leaders what they should do can be flat out wrong. Diagnosis may be correct but not the prescription.

There are other times that the leader or the follower themselves might be doing something incorrect and be totally unaware of it, but they feel it is others who are not doing it right. For example a follower or a leader might be too stiff (rigid frame) or too loosey goosey (lack of frame), both types require adjustments from their partners. But the culprit will feel otherwise.

People often equate been diplomatic is to couch things in both non-offensive and sweeten it in some kind of coded language that doesn't appear like a feedback. There is a difference between critic, criticism, and advise. A social dance floor is not a place for any of those three.

But you can always give a non-offensive feedback. E.g. "I am getting off-balance" than saying "you are throwing me off balance" is what I consider a non-offensive feedback that is not diplomatic in my book. Diplomatic of the same would be "May be it is me, I can't keep balance when we do this, can you try doing this way to help me", or some variation. What other person hears is that they are not at fault. If you tell someone, esp a leader "I am getting off-balance", most will get the message that they might be throwing follower off-balance. There are always exceptions and knuckle heads. We are not talking about those. Leaders with average emotional intelligence will get it. But saying "you are throwing me off-balance" will put the other partner on defensive (as well comes across as an unintended accusation or a judgement being made on them) and make it worse as they try to compensate for it (when they may not have tools to correct it at that instance).

We forget how complex we are. Most of us lack art of either giving or receiving a feedback, or both.

 

[Sabrosura]

Yes.
But there is also a persistent myth that you can lead well every beginner follow, mostly maintained by followers.

The key is not to try to lead beyond what a beginner/inexperienced/unskilled follow can do.
And if even with the clearest lead she doesn't get it, then stick to just super basic things -- but for the love of salsa, do NOT add more force to try to get her to do something (this is not coming just from me but also one of the best leads I know, who I have discussed this with).

Besides teaching such follows (and the next lead they will dance with) bad habits, when a lead adds force like that, he also runs the risk of calibrating his lead towards rougher than needed/rougher than his usual leading, for his next dance, without realizing -- I have lost count of how many leads have told me this had just happened after I asked them to lead more lightly.

(This is not directed at you btw but at lurkers who might be reading this )

 

[GentleDancer]

And if even with the clearest lead she doesn't get it, then stick to just super basic things

That's an interesting point, but I will open a new thread for this.

Besides teaching such follows (and the next lead they will dance with) bad habits, when a lead adds force like that, he also runs the risk of calibrating his lead towards rougher than needed/rougher than his usual leading, for his next dance, without realizing -- I have lost count of how many leads have told me this had just happened after I asked them to lead more lightly.

Yes, the re-calibrating is an issue, this can happen to every lead, even professionals. In social an experienced lead will always start with easy things like single-turn / CBL, so he gets (again) a feel for her. This may take half a minute slowly increasing. When I do this I often see a glimpse of relief in my followers eyes.

It's worse in classes where you are expected to just dance the new learned moves. Changing partners sometimes is hectically every minute so you have no time for re-calibrating by doing single-turns and CBL. One of the reasons many classes are not fun.

 

[NPEADS]

2) There is this persistent myth that inexperienced/unskilled follows need & should get more force to be led; to any leads reading this, memorize this and repeat it over and over before you go dancing:
You can give an extra-clear lead to a beginner follow *without* using more force.

This topic might deserve its own thread so I'll stop here

If the issue is roughness that should be communicated.
Roughness comes from people's overuse of tension. Dance teachers teach us how tension helps to build connections and how spaghetti arms are bad. They forget to tell us we should use the least amount of tension (1/10, not 0/10).

This tension can come from either side. Our natural tendency is to match the other persons tension.

Many new dancers come to dance with soft/spaghetti arms and teachers (and fellow leads ) show them how to use tension. They overdo it.

For me I would rather dance with a girl with Spaghetti arms than a girl who is applying too much tension.

Dance cues are 90% emotional, 10% physical.

I usually try to lower the tension as much as possible so that other person tries to match it. IF they ups the tension in response, the dance does not go well. But 95% girls intuitively lowers the tension.

 

[Offbeat]

If the issue is roughness that should be communicated.
Roughness comes from people's overuse of tension. Dance teachers teach us how tension helps to build connections and how spaghetti arms are bad. They forget to tell us we should use the least amount of tension (1/10, not 0/10).

Those teachers are mistaking tone for tension

This tension can come from either side. Our natural tendency is to match the other persons tension.

Correct. But that’s a wrong reaction.

I usually try to lower the tension as much as possible so that other person tries to match it.

You mean if the other person is applying unnecessary more tension. You are right. Trying to match unnecessary more tension is futile.

 

[Smiley79]

When I'm sitting and watching others dance, followers will come to me and tell me things they don't like in other leads. They will point out exactly who is doing what and what they don't like about their leading.

Interesting... I've never had followers tell me stuff like that except for one partner I've danced with for a while.

2) There is this persistent myth that inexperienced/unskilled follows need & should get more force to be led; to any leads reading this, memorize this and repeat it over and over before you go dancing:
You can give an extra-clear lead to a beginner follow *without* using more force.

This is where having a solid frame is essential; something I still work on developing. Force I've experienced comes more when you are moving in separate components (arms, legs, head, torso) vs moving the whole body as one. Something that I'm again still growing on moving together; goes against my previous training where you lean to isolate every part of your body as needed to control the target. When I can feel I have a solid frame and core, it's much easier to lead (even with bad follows). Work in progress for me...

Due to diplomacy it's nearly never spoken out, neither in classes or in social. It's part of the human condition to not speak out your thoughts most of the time, because it causes more trouble than benefits.

IDK man.. You see and overhear stuff; body language/expressions can tell you a lot....

 

[Bostontraitor]

Don't give anyone feedbacks or tips in social dancing. Unless she askes for it.