Excessive vs Natural
- Thread starter cedan
- Start date
I think the argument for being “natural” is more multilayered than that.
First, I don’t like that the video is using kids as an example of what is forced/artificial vs natural. It’s in poor taste, IMO.
He knows that the kid from North Korea is coached to be that way. So it’s not the kid’s fault.
I would rather use adults as examples who have the luxury of choosing coaching or not (Keep in mind coaching is widely encouraged as a way to improve across all disciplines including the arts)
Look at Mariah Carey. Is she being forced/artificial with her gestures? Some may say yes. I only recognize her voice, which is out of this world. Her performance shouldn’t detract from her talent. In fact, I think some of those gestures enhance her overall performance.
Michael Jackson is excess to the extreme, mostly as a dancer. Why does he need to moonwalk on stage? What’s with the silver gloves? He doesn’t need to grab his crotch. He is both natural and also artificial, but we love him for it anyway.
Some singers don’t emote at all but are undeniably talented. Where do they fall on the spectrum of “natural” and “forced”? Maybe there’s a cultural influence that prohibits them frrom becoming too expressive. So is that also forced?
With dancing, the argument becomes “natural” vs “artificial styling”. Again, most of those artificial looking dancers are coached to be that way. Is it bad? Not necessarily.
Eddie Torres used to be wild and natural until he met his coach/mentor who taught him structure and forced him to change how he danced. Is his “structured/artificial” way of dancing worse than how he danced before he met his coach?
That’s not something that can be reliably judged.
I think this idea of being yourself is something that only the individual can decide what’s good for them.
With Salsa dancing, it’s very hard for people not born into the culture to be “natural”.
Let’s be real. For most of us, it isn’t natural at all.
I don’t consider doing figure 8’s with my rib cage while walking back and forth as a natural thing to do. Nor moving my shoulders back and forth 6-10 times per second. Nor moving my hips more than they need to do for general motor function. These are all artificial movements that allow us to fit the mold of a Salsa dancer a little better.
If I’m being totally natural, I would never do any of that ****.
But my natural has changed and I incorporate some of that. I think I am a better Salsa dancer because of it.
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This video was so off. I appreciate the argument he's trying to make, but the examples he uses are insane.
I’m not sure if he’s aware that South Korean kids have insane amounts of societal pressure placed upon them to conform and I wouldn’t be surprised if the young singer’s every move was under intense scrutiny.
A key difference and distinction is all of above is performative art compared to social dancing. In performative arts, it is expected to have additional elements that you say are artificial, staged, forced, unnatural, overboard etc. The artists who can pull it off while being comfortable in their skin, look natural or at home. Even when it is over the top. And there are artists who totally do not try to be too expressive or emote. At the end the crowds adore artists for their primary talent. Doesn’t matter how it is expressed.
Indeed be yourself and what you are comfortable in being. Some social dancers can be loud, some can be goofy, some will monkey around, some will be plain, etc. You can’t be what you are not. If you are naturally goofy it could make you stand out and be liked by others. Anytime you force something that’s not natural to you, it comes across contrived and artificially forced.
What do you mean it is not natural? I think most non-Latinos look very natural the way the dance. You don’t need to look like someone else. Just be yourself.
Some things become second nature when dancing. The ribcage upper body movement if you practice it well and it becomes a natural part of your movement, that is not unnatural.
In life a lot of our mannerisms are acquired and become second nature. A very few things are really natural uninfluenced by our surrounding. The way we talk, walk, etc is influenced by the surroundings.
That’s why Latinas from
By that I mean it’s not natural to learn how to coordinate the body to move that is applicable to Salsa. Even stepping you go ball heel, but that is the opposite of walking.
Intuitively it makes no sense.
Even though moving like a Latino is not required, it is generally understood that it is desirable to look a certain way rather than to just jiggle and gyrate, but getting there takes a long time.
Since I live in an area with very strong Latino presence, most Latinos when dancing look as funny and awkward as non-Latinos.
Only those who have taken an effort to dance regularly or train look natural when dancing.
I know we like to separate performative dancing with social dancing, but how distinct are the two?
In social dancing, are we not also performing to an extent?
If you truly didn’t care about performing in front of people, you would dance at home alone (without social media presence) or with your significant other.
Okay, but what images are conjured up when a non-dancer thinks of Salsa dancing?
The first words that come to mind are “Latin, exotic, sexy, flamboyant, flashy”.
Some or all of those ideas may not immediately jive with a person’s self-image of themselves.
It would then not be natural to become a Salsa dancer until one can internalize those traits.
cedan
Changui
If we social dance a few years without taking complicated lessons, most Latinos would not be able to distinguish us (non Latinos) from them. The emotions the music brings are similar. Performers have to catch everyone's attention so they might have excessive dance moves that mostly fit into the song they are trying to dance on. Then the social dancers learn these moves and try to fit those complicated moves into a totally different song on the fly. I personally feel there is a disconnect, moves attempt to overshadow the music. The achievement of complications and excess overshadows the emotion the music could bring. There is an emotion, its probably premeditated emotion. That's my feeling, again I could be wrong.
No, I didn't, wrong association. So I asked Mod to delete it to avoid this misinterpretation.
I'm not sure. I agree with the general idea, but this is missing the factor of picking up (consciously or not) the movements of people around you. Say I spend those years dancing solo (hypothetically) to exactly the same songs in Havana, Cali, New York or at that dance school social in the German countryside. I think you'd have a good chance of guessing where I'd spent those years, ignoring factors like skin color, etc.
On that note, I wonder how much implicit teaching happens in those natural scenes. Some people are just great at copying movements without any control (mirror, video, teacher's corrections), some will end up just looking awkward because they're not. But if I go out with my friend group, and that one guy makes fun of my weird posture, that's kind of like a teacher's correction.
Partner dancing then adds a whole extra level of learning from those around you.
Solaro
Changui
Social dancing does have some performative elements simply because when someone wants to do something well the question of artistry and beauty always appears at one point. Also, when doing a social activity, especially one such as social dancing, the question of looking cool becomes important. But it's not the main and essential component of social dancing. To me, social dancers ("bailadores") are distinct from performance dancers ("bailarines") because they dance for themselves and solely for themselves, as in the connection and pleasure they get when dancing together to the music, the joy of being part of something greater than oneself, and taking part of a culture as a whole. Thinking of what the people are going to think of you when you're dancing actually often hinders or demolishes the feelings you want to feel during your dance.
Of course it's an archetype, it's more complex in reality especially nowadays with social network, globalization and dance tourism. A lot of non-pros learn dancing through schools, they get inspiration from superstars who blur this distinction, they watch a lot of videos where you usually see performers and not social dancers, and they think that in the hierarchy of social dancing they are the best because they think value comes from image and not what the people are truly feeling during the dance. They want to resemble those superstars and do similar stuff, going so far as to imitate like one would try to copy a **** actor during sex thinking it's the epitome of sexual prowess's.
In fact, as often I feel like s3x and dances are very much comparable, and in this instance I would say performance dancing is to dancing what p0rn is to sex: the aim is not the connection between the partners but the impact on an audience. You could learn some things from pr0n the same way you can learn from performance artists, but if you don't prioritize the connection with your partner you just become an awful social dancer/lover if you do so. At least that's how personally I view dancing: yes to looking good, and often looking good means working on basics, frame and other stuff that make dancing more pleasant. But it must be as a cherry on top of what's most important: the connection to your partner and to the music.
I remember Luis Duarte, a casino teacher I really like, saying in a video that in the olden days people could feel many intense things with just two basic steps in close position. That's the essence of (social) dancing. He would say that in the era of social network we think it's over, but in fact it should always be the real goal, even when learning more complex stuff. I really find that statement true. People tend to also forget that social dancing is supposed to be a popular activity, ea. something accessible to all means, body types, ages,... Salsa, just like every other activities under capitalist conditions, became an economy itself, and a very gentrified one. When Cubans started dancing casino after the communist revolution, they did so with very little means and that's how they invented most stuff people nowadays try to replicate. But unfortunately, social dancing in Western societies has become an activity reserved mostly for privileged people, able to pay hundreds and thousands of €/$ to go to festivals, congresses, take private classes, group classes, dress fancy (especially in on1/2 salsa) etc. That is also why I believe social dancers get their examples from dancing superstars. In those international events, everyone looks good, young and athletic. I won't say I don't enjoy those events, as any dancing events are fun, but they are to me the total opposite of what true social dancing is. In Cuba, Cubans can't even attend those salsa events! They're too expensive for the local population...
Solaro
Changui
Knowing a little about the musical industry of South Korea I find the author of the video completely delusional. There's nothing natural in the way most South Korean teachers teach music to kids especially to such a level - and there has been many investigations on the cruel and inhumane conditions of k-pop artists' training.
Learning gestures and "fake emotions" can be detrimental but also liberating depending on how it's lived by in the individual and the context itself. You can't do whatever you want if you're learning a traditional dance for example. Some music, some cultural contexts and some dances require a very rigid framework and therefore a very thorough training to fit the mold of what's expected. Only once can the individual express his or her singularity. Look at Greek tragedy: it's very restrictive rules allowed for one of the most democratic and rich cultural inventions of all time.
The onus on looking natural, on the individual being free from any social pressure and on the kid being able to be its authentic self is a byproduct of Western post-68 culture, on libertarian values that have also been kind of assimilated by consumerism to make individuals consume more. Since human beings are social beings, nature and culture are intimately intertwined... So in order to have a proper idea one would have to define what they mean by "natural" or "artificial".
In the case of dancing, I don't think these are the right concepts to use. I think when people say "natural dancers" they usually either mean people who have it easy, or people who look elegant/fluid while dancing. In the first definition, it's really mostly thanks to having learned dancing from a young age or being raised in a culture where (social) dancing is more common. African cultures tend to have polycentric dances and polyrhythmic music with a lot of percussive elements: of course it will make it easier for the members of such cultures to learn certain types of dances or naturally grasp certain types of rythms! Nothing to do with nature if by nature one means "in the blood".
As for the second definition, I think that's where it becomes interesting. Because I truly believe great artists usually develop a second nature through artifices. Writing literature is not the same as writing basic stuff: it's a new language in one's language, and it has it's codes, techniques, framework one needs to learn to become good and eventually unique. Dancing is the same, and people who are not "natural" in the sense of the first definition often tend to not look natural in the second sense simply because it's extremely rare to find good teachers who use a strong technical framework to teach how to look and feel natural (and not technical). So you usually end up with either very scholar/technical dancers who look a bit awkward, or very talented "natural" dancers completely unable to explain why and how they look so effortlessly good (good for them but not good for people like me who can't just learn through imitation).
Thanks for saying, it's a good reminder. I remember reading a comment just recently (reddit?) where someone was suggesting a handicapped dancer should look for a different hobby instead of inconveniencing them at some festival
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Agreed completely. But ultimately dancers do what they want. If they're not dancing in closed position it might be because no one has ever shown them that's a viable option, but it's more likely that such a concept is of no interest to them.
I don't think the above stands up to scrutiny. In the UK and most if not all other countries, the majority of salsa dancing is on a regional level. It's not free but it's not an expensive activity like the congress scene is.
Also the idea that Cubans don't or didn't used to dress up to dance is absurd. The opposite is true, whether regarding Cubans in Cuba or abroad.
As for Cubans not being able to afford to attend events in Cuba: as I understand it, events for foreigners are very expensive by local standards. That's actually good as it means money is entering the local economy from abroad. At the same time, bars, discos or other venues will give locals an opportunity to dance salsa for a price they can afford (e.g. no cover) if there is demand. Although in recent years it seems local tastes are more for reggaeton than salsa.
And local dance and music academies are primarily designed to teach the locals, not tourists, so the idea that Cubans are missing anything by not being able to afford to go to a class full of pasty, ageing Europeans learning guaguancó etc is ridiculous. (No offence to anyone.)
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
This part is a bit confused too. If someone wants to earn a living from salsa they need to be able to perform as well as social dance. But in both linear and Cuban style, performances and social dancing are distinct concepts. And, for the most part, it's the vids of social dancing that go viral, not the vids of performances.
Does the constant filming of social dance have a potential negative impact? Yes, indeed this has been stated by a number of posters on here.
And if we are talking of differences between social dancing and performance dancing, and the reality of dancing in Latin America, then the salsa scene in Cali, Colombia must contradict everything above.
DJ Yuca
Son Montuno
Weirdly, k pop is very popular in Colombia, and many young girls and women love it. (I don't think I've heard of any males or anyone past mid-20s being into it.) I suspect the k pop fans are probably not in the majority of Colombians who, to a greater or lesser extent, enjoy salsa music and dance,
Solaro
Changui
The idea behind was not to promote closed position but to explain that from simple things can come very deep and beautiful/intense feelings, as long as what's prioritized is the connection with the partner and the music.
I didn't say it was a general rule with no exceptions but a tendency provoked by the fact that social dancing (latin dances in general) have undergone the usual processes in capitalist economies: comodification, globalization and so on. Thank god there are still local scenes and people trying to create communities with barely any financial goals in mind (the same could be said on a higher level when talking about football clubs).
I have never said that Cubans don't dress up to dance. I am very much aware of the sociological fact that popular cultures have their aesthetics and popular classes, especially in some cultures, have their ways of dressing up in certain occasions (going to church for example). This is, however, not the same as our great dancing stars wearing fancy clothes most people can't afford including in Western societies (Hermes belts, luxurious costumes, etc.). It should also only be on special occasions, not regular social dancing events (in Cuba, used to be in the family, in local clubs, in boarding schools). On1 and especially on2 salsa events tend to be regarded as arrogant and fancy in my dance scene (heard that from both people dancing Cuban and people dancing on1/on2...) because of all that I've listed - the onus on performance, rigid technique, the beauty factor, the dress-to-impress mentality etc.
You don't seem to grasp the logics of mass tourism in a capitalist world, or the fact that this kind of neo-imperialist mentality makes it often harder for locals especially in such a precarious economy as Cuba's since the end of the USSR. Sure tourism brings money. You know what also brings money (and is often referred to in timba songs)? The massive, tragic and disturbing prostitution economy that plagues Cuba. Yes, a lot of women gained financial independence through prostitution with Westerners. Is prostitution a good thing for these women and Cuban society? I don't think so personally. It only is if you only look at the pure financial aspect of it (ea. the dollars coming in). Also, one would have to really investigate to see if such money (from dance tourism) really goes to local Cubans. I'm sure a lot of it is concentrated in the hands of a few individuals.
Thinking in terms of "demands" is not taking into account the fact that the "demands" are also stimulated by many factors including the possibilities themselves. If most dance bars are for tourists, you will see quickly the disappearance of organic, local cultures, in this instance dance culture. Again, some places still exist (where often tourists don't go), but these are not the venues where you'll see great timba groups play or great performers perform, and they often struggle to survive due to lack of public support and lack of money coming from consumers (who are struggling in Cuba). So the result is that, as some observers have commented, you've got a Cuban invention in Cubans' very own country that can only be enjoyed by rich foreigners (and the local teachers/performers). How unfair is that? How disgusting is that?
Casino, salsa, timba, whatever, none of that would have existed if the conditions had been like today's. Casino dancing owes it's complexity to the thousands of anonymous social dancers dancing all over Cuba since the 70s. Timba's rich musical complexity (the most complex dancing music ever in my opinion) owes everything to the communist policies of massively funding higher education and to the genius of the people (the huge impact of rumba and African polyrhythms on its evolution). It's really sad that the best the culture has to offer is now a luxurious product for foreign (and usually wealthy) dance/music-goers.
As for reggaeton being more popular (with the rise of reparto style) I guess you might be right there, but it's always hard to know where it comes from. I mean, after the communist revolution, casino dancing and son music vanished at one point in favor of people listening to Western music like the Beatles. It came back thanks to the salseros who gave some nice concerts in Cuba (and the Buena Ventura Social Club boom I guess). In Cuba, rumba and casino are still fairly popular from what I gathered, although not as much as before, but considering the crisis and the disappearances of a lot of places where people could gather to listen to music and dance, it's already quite extraordinary. Also, Havana D Primera still regularly ranks as most favourite Cuban artist IN CUBA...
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