ET on2 dancers actually stepping on 4 & 8

[AndrewS]

Hmm let me think.

Eddie Torres
Frankie Martinez
Tomas from SR
Yamulee
BASO
Juan Matos
Nelson Flores
Adolfo
James Cobo
Milton Cobo
Victor&Burju
Joel Masacote
Mouaze
Anne&Anichi
Fadi K
Irene miguel
TNT dance instructors
Guy Lawrance from mambata
Special Tee
Brian from salsaaddiction
A couple of instructors from Russia but they all used to count in Russian
many on1 instructors who teach on2 from time to time like suoer Mario or tamambo

From these instructors, I can only remember baso as an exception. as I already mentioned they count like one two threeee five six seveeeen.

Besides, this number of year thing pointless imo, as I've written else where. one can dance for 15 years and attended only 1 (one) instructors classes.

so, now i think i spent too much time for you. more than you deserve. write whatever you like, I dont care.

Ok, bit touchy, however that's an impressive list for such a short time dancing.

So the overlap I have with you is the following list:
Eddie Torres
Tomas from SR
Yamulee
BASO
Juan Matos
Adolfo
Milton Cobo
Victor&Burju
Supermario

None of them counted with a long ONE (how you described above) when I took classes with them. Maybe they have changed their counting style or maybe we just have a different perception of how they count.

I have heard a long Onnnnnnneee count in many on1 classes however.

 

[Salsacore]

i think this is an interesting topic and I was often confused about the timing, too.

In my experience, most British and US on2 teachers step on the 4& while calling "5" and step on the 8& while calling "1".

that's also my impression.

Mambologia: youtube.com/watch?v=sU3eKEQ0Tt0
I tried to dance all variations to this track but best for me feels: 2,3,4 - 6.5,7,8
there are also other tracks that make me want to step on 6.5 rather than 6 probably because of the deep conga. And in some tracks I feel like stepping on 8 instead of 8.5 while stepping on 4.5 works fine.
That would result in: 2,3,4.5 - 6,7,8

Not sure if there are differences between leaders and followers. Is anything wrong with me

 

[opm1s6]

I'm assuming Baso got it from Tomas, because I've seen him count it that way as well.

 

[olamalam]

I'm assuming Baso got it from Tomas, because I've seen him count it that way as well.

No, I've just checked the recording of Tomas's workshop in Marakkesh Festival which was last September. He is counting like I said. Maybe he is counting different in festivals.

As far as I know, Athoy introduced that from her previous dance experience.

 

[olamalam]

So why do you think they are counting like this? Is it in order to give the freedom to step at whatever count in the range: 4,4&,5 (8,8&,6)? I.e. what count your third step is on does not matter that much?

The thing I like about NY style is this freedom. You can create different effect according to when you slow down. While counting like oneeee, it actually includes 8 and 1 in it. Similarly fiveee includes 4 and 5. You can step on the first tap of double tap (4) or second tap of double tap (4&) or after the double tap (1). As smej said, 2-3 whatever 6-7 whatever.

Interesting! I guess this would imply that when on1 dancers switch to on2 they will use Palladium style timing instead of ET timing in social dancing (even if they are trying to learn ET in classes). This because the habit to have the have both feet on the ground during the pause (like in on1 and in on2 Palladium Style) is saved into their muscle memory?
Do you remember which instructor the DVD was from?

Exactly. I've written in some other threads that I benefitted from learning on2 before fixing my timing issues with on1. Some other people wrote that I took much longer time to get used to on2 timing. Also I sometimes notice some girls dance something like LA style on2 because of the muscle memory thing.

As far as I remember, the experiment was done with Tamambo's and Oliver Pineda's DVDs.

 

[Ron Obvious]

I tried to dance all variations to this track but best for me feels: 2,3,4 - 6.5,7,8
there are also other tracks that make me want to step on 6.5 rather than 6 probably because of the deep conga. And in some tracks I feel like stepping on 8 instead of 8.5 while stepping on 4.5 works fine.
That would result in: 2,3,4.5 - 6,7,8

Just a note to all you clave/conga obsessers: what if the people playing the rest of the instruments started thinking the same way? "If I play this guiro a bit ahead of time it will hit this and that note of the clave". It doesn't work that way, and that's why dancing *to* the clave doesn't mean dancing *on* the clave. There are other instruments in the game too, not just the clave and the conga (an dancer is really just an extension of a physical instrument).

But also the rhythm isn't necessarily just conceived in one instrument, and sometimes the rhythm can be passed over from instrument to another instrument, so you can't analyse music (or dance this way), you have to analyse all instruments together.

 

[Salsacore]

...you have to analyse all instruments together.

so what's the result of your analysis, is it different to mine?

 

[vit]

Interesting! I guess this would imply that when on1 dancers switch to on2 they will use Palladium style timing instead of ET timing in social dancing (even if they are trying to learn ET in classes). This because the habit to have the have both feet on the ground during the pause (like in on1 and in on2 Palladium Style) is saved into their muscle memory?

Well, not necessarily. I presume Oliver Pineda and Tamambo are not the only dancers dancing on1 in rhythm approximately 1-2-3& 5-6-7&. I'm also doing that and some other guys in my venue. So when dancing on2, this stays, like with above mentioned dancers, pretty much the same, just shifted one beat. Even in b/r rumba, where rhythm is 234 (like in palladium style mambo), feet actually touches the floor on 4, but weight transfer between 4 and 1 is very gradual (and there are also some steps named delayed walks, where step is actually taken between 4 and 1 for instance)

I personally think there is nothing wrong with this, as long as correct and fluid body movement is still there. If it isn't, then whole dance becomes very plain and steps look like dancer doesn't hear the rhythm. Also, I think that it isn't suitable for cuban style or even cross-body danced on cuban or similar music

 

[Smejmoon]

I personally think there is nothing wrong with this, as long as correct and fluid body movement is still there. If it isn't, then whole dance becomes very plain and steps look like dancer doesn't hear the rhythm. Also, I think that it isn't suitable for cuban style or even cross/body danced on cuban or similar music

Actually it more often than not is a problem. It creates disconnect between partners if they don't match these inconsistencies.

 

[vit]

Actually it more often than not is a problem. It creates disconnect between partners if they don't match these inconsistencies.

I agree that it can certainly be a problem, although if your connection with the partner is flexible enough, it probably won't be a problem as long as you are able to give her enough information about what you want to lead. In any case, I never got an objection that I'm out of rhythm from any girl - most girls seems to be taking this as a "musicality". I never force this timing to the girl - she is almost entirely free to have her own timing of steps and movement. It is possible to isolate this. As another fact, in b/r rumba it's frequently the case that movement of partners has some 'phase difference' (think about yo-yo)

 

[Smejmoon]

I agree that it can certainly be a problem, although if your connection with the partner is flexible enough, it probably won't be a problem as long as you are able to give her enough information about what you want to lead.

If flexible connection is a choice, then it's fine. If there is a need for flexible connection, because partners can't engage, it's not. I'll form a separate thread for this later. There is a substyle of ET2 where partners have really loose connection.

 

[vit]

I like that connection between the partners is "breathing" - I was taught that way in ballroom, so it is a kind of import from there and probably another distraction from salsa roots. But flexible and loose connection are different things for me. Connection can be flexible but still quite powerful. Anyway, as I said, I try to limit this to lyrical salsa song. For songs with exact rhythm, I prefer exact stepping (actually, I do the same in ballroom, where there are also songs with more exact or more lyrical rhythm/timing)

It would be interesting to hear other members' opinions.

 

[thepresenceon2]

This flexibility when it comes to timing seems to me an excuse to allow dancing off time?

 

[nowhiteshoes]

I tend to step on 4 or 4& and 8 or 8& when dancing on2 bu 1 and 5 when on1

 

[olamalam]

This flexibility when it comes to timing seems to me an excuse to allow dancing off time?

No, if you are doing it on purpose, it's not off time or excuse

 

[sweavo]

Not sure if there are differences between leaders and followers. Is anything wrong with me

For the full answer to that, you need to consult a medic, but what you describe in your post is what I call "listening to the music". Being inspired to step on different interpretations of the basic timing because of the texture of the rhythm is something I believe should be fundamental to dancing.

This flexibility when it comes to timing seems to me an excuse to allow dancing off time?

In Kurt Vonnegut's Bluebeard there's a scene that describes this situation. I'm paraphrasing because I read it half a decade ago and don't have a copy. But the protagonist, an abstract artist, shows character B his latest great work. It's a large canvas that he's painted completely blue. B asks what's so clever about that? What makes that art? In reply, the protagonist sketches a highly accurate and evocative portrait of B.

I think the point of that scene is that the blue is a choice, made by someone who had other options, and who had the perceptive skills to make the choice. Whereas if the viewer does not have an appreciation of the artist's internal landdscape (the subjective world of the artist's perception and imagination) then he might not be fully equipped to appreciate the output either.

In direct response to thepresenceon2's accusation. Some people wil use it as an excuse to dance off time. They will not know what dancing on time means, and if you accuse them of dancing off time then they will invoke this excuse. Some will use it as an artistic freedom to syncopate the 8 beats differently according to music and partner, and it will look good to you (the viewer). And some wlil use this freedom to create results that you the viewer will not be equipped to appreciate, and no matter how much they say they were on time, you won't agree.

 

[petteri]

There should be distinction between being on time throughout the dance and using the same timing all the time.

It is quite possible to use several timings during the dance and be well on time. In salsa it is just not quite as common as in some other partner dance forms.

 

[MMaatttt]

This flexibility when it comes to timing seems to me an excuse to allow dancing off time?

If the lead is also off time they are probably making excuses

 

[vit]

In direct response to thepresenceon2's accusation. Some people wil use it as an excuse to dance off time. They will not know what dancing on time means, and if you accuse them of dancing off time then they will invoke this excuse. Some will use it as an artistic freedom to syncopate the 8 beats differently according to music and partner, and it will look good to you (the viewer). And some wlil use this freedom to create results that you the viewer will not be equipped to appreciate, and no matter how much they say they were on time, you won't agree.

I was talking about this subject with various girls - of course those who can hear the rhythm well. Most of them can distinguish quite clearly between leader's interpretation of the music (playing with rhythm intentionally) or being out of time (where rhythm is actually playing with the leader). Surely, not all of them like leader doing that, and some of them like how some leaders doing that but don't like others (with me included in first or second group, depending on the girl). But as general rule - if the lady is good and experienced dancer, there are big chances she will like it (you see it on her face after you start dancing in a matter of seconds anyway)

 

[olamalam]

I'm doing a similar thing all the time in Turkey. Majority of the scene is on1 and they are somehow scared of on2. When I ask them to dance on2 or mention that we are dancing on2, they are paralysed and say ohh I cant follow on2. But I noticed that when I start on1 and change to on2 after a few bars without letting them know, then they can follow. This is probably because they trust my timing. Only sometimes they ask me if they are off time. I say, no worries, you are perfectly on time :tongue: