ET on2 dancers actually stepping on 4 & 8

[salsology]

This weekend I took a really interesting musicality workshop. The instructor made a quite controversial statement. He said that almost all dancers (>90%) that claim that they dance Eddie Torres Style On2 are actually stepping on count 4 and 8 (instead of count 5 and 1) when social dancing. They start off by dancing 1-2-3, 5-6-7 and then slip into stepping 2-3-4 6-7-8. This would mean that they are actually dancing Palladium Style On2 and not ET On2.

One of my teachers also made this claim ( he is a proponent of Palladium Style - so may have a bias).
I've no idea what I actually do when social dancing other than hitting the 2-3, and 6-7. I've tried to work it out whether I'm dancing ET or POn2 but find this virtually impossible while dancing as I can't separate my counts from when my foot actually hits the ground. A bit like rubbing your tummy and head at same time ). Watching footage of myself I would say the majority of my steps usually fall closer to the 1 and 7, than then 4 and 8 but not always.

 

[Smejmoon]

Also when you foot touches the ground is not as important as when your weight shifts.

 

[vit]

Also when you foot touches the ground is not as important as when your weight shifts.

Agree with that

However, way you shift your weight is in direct relation with you style. So a rhythm QQS of shifting the weight is in a slight contradiction with being smooth. So it can happen that one of these quicks is a bit longer and slow is a bit shorter

As example, although entirely different dance - in ballroom there is a dance called slow foxtrot (rarely danced socially in my area, as it is quite demanding). Its basic steps (called feather step and three step) are also SQQSQQ ... However, it's extremely smooth dance, so it is impossible to dance it dead on the rhythm and still look like you are dancing slow foxtrot. So actual duration of each step depends on which figure is before and which figure is after etc ... although all basic figures have strictly defined rhythm (which is different in various figures)

 

[petteri]

When I look at this video, it seems like Milton does not really “break” every bar, but there long flowing parts of dance where break steps are practically missing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=311McqUBWI8

In some styles of salsa pretty long continuous sequences are danced without real break steps and after the while break steps are introduced again. I think that there are really figures which need break steps and figures which work better when danced without breaks. It seems to me like breaking and breakless figures often use bit different timing.

Then there are dances where break step is present practically all the time like this and timing is pretty constant throughout the dance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2vnDhXZc-I

 

[terence]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=311McqUBWI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2vnDhXZc-I

Looking at both, the 2nd one has much more "sabor ", and the partnership relationship seems much stronger . AND, it wasnt overloaded with "spins" .One of the best clips I,ve seen in a while .
As always, its personal choice ,to a greater or lesser degree .


The "breaks " they used in the 2nd clip seemed to define the music a little more ( both great songs, by the way..names ? ) .

 

[vit]

When I look at this video, it seems like Milton does not really “break” every bar, but there long flowing parts of dance where break steps are practically missing.

Well, main intention of "break" is to change a direction of the movement. So when moving smoothly you actually don't need a "real" break ... also, if you are spinning the girl a big part of the dance like Milton, do you need to break? Do you need any steps for that? However, all these things are a distraction from some salsa roots, as it was discussed extensively in another 100+ page thread, including this clip ... but it's a reality of international salsa scene ...

 

[petteri]

However, all these things are a distraction from some salsa roots, as it was discussed extensively in another 100+ page thread, including this clip ... but it's a reality of international salsa scene ...

How about keeping "I hate fake international salsa, spinning is from hell, latino sabor rules, let's bring dance back to roots" carbage in its own megathread? I am dead tired of it.

 

[petteri]

Well, main intention of "break" is to change a direction of the movement. So when moving smoothly you actually don't need a "real" break ... also, if you are spinning the girl a big part of the dance like Milton, do you need to break? Do you need any steps for that?

Good points. But have you noticed that Milton generally moves a lot even though there are some more static spinning sections.

 

[vit]

How about keeping "I hate fake international salsa, spinning is from hell, latino sabor rules, let's bring dance back to roots" carbage in its own megathread? I am dead tired of it.

Look, I'm also a part of 'international salsa scene', so I'm also doing this (just not as good as Milton and usually with less spinning), sometimes putting even something from ballroom etc. Some girls like it, some not (first group has more members in my venue than second). However, I'm aware that some of these things are distraction from Cuban / African roots - that's all.

 

[sweavo]

When dancing on 2 I rarely hit 1 or 5. I either pick the ponche (4, 8) where the bass pushes the harmony, or the second open tone of the conga (4&, 8&) which is a half-a-count before 1 and 5. Stepping on 1 and 5 feels flat and I only do this on the social floor if I'm dancing with someone who seems to counting strictly and who seems to be phased when I play with that beat. The key to both on 2 styles is beat 2 / 6 and the "1" or "5" step is least important structurally, so can be used for flavour or expression.

In my experience, most British and US on2 teachers step on the 4& while calling "5" and step on the 8& while calling "1".

 

[AndrewS]

Ok, maybe I should have written like "most of the on2 instructors that I've attended their classes" or etc if it really matters that much.

Toan counts like annnd 2-3 annnd 6-7 which also makes sense.

It matters because if people new to this site read this and see that you have over 2000 posts they might assume you are vastly experienced in dancing rather than just vastly experienced at posting on this forum.

 

[AndrewS]

Looking at both, the 2nd one has much more "sabor ", and the partnership relationship seems much stronger . AND, it wasnt overloaded with "spins" .One of the best clips I,ve seen in a while .
As always, its personal choice ,to a greater or lesser degree .


The "breaks " they used in the 2nd clip seemed to define the music a little more ( both great songs, by the way..names ? ) .

The first song is Via by Al Delory (which is an instrumental version of an Italian rock song by Claudio Baglioni. It's amazing how different the two versions sound and impressive that DJs or Delory could see it working for salsa)

 

[olamalam]

It matters because if people new to this site read this and see that you have over 2000 posts they might assume you are vastly experienced in dancing rather than just vastly experienced at posting on this forum.

It's easy to find out about my experience on this forum. they can have a look at "criticise olamalam" thread. They can see various videos from my first day (2 years back) to today.

besides, there's no need to have vast experience to comment about how instructors count while teaching. only one class with that instructor is enough. I've been to quite a lot congresses in my short salsa life and experienced as many instructors as I could. Apart from Oliver Pineda, I've met the ones on my list.
How many years of experience do I need to tell how they count?

 

[DaveFUK]

In my experience, most British and US on2 teachers step on the 4& while calling "5" and step on the 8& while calling "1".

Yes, we'll almost. In my experience the teachers/dancers that don't are those that learnt to dance on1 and then self taught themselves on2.

It's just easier to count 1, 23, 5, 67 then 8& 23, 4& 67

 

[sweavo]

When I was teaching on ET2 last night (usually I teach on 1) I just made a conga sound:

1 2 3 - kuku - 6 7 - kuku - 2 3 - kuku - 6 7 ...

It's my policy to relate the steps to the percussion early and often. Also neatly avoids any conflict with peeps who assume the dancer's count is the same as the musician's.

 

[terence]

The first song is Via by Al Delory (which is an instrumental version of an Italian rock song by Claudio Baglioni. It's amazing how different the two versions sound and impressive that DJs or Delory could see it working for salsa)

Thats why I would not have heard it before . And now i know the other one is by larry Harlow ( thanks to Chris ) .

 

[AndrewS]

It's easy to find out about my experience on this forum. they can have a look at "criticise olamalam" thread. They can see various videos from my first day (2 years back) to today.

besides, there's no need to have vast experience to comment about how instructors count while teaching. only one class with that instructor is enough. I've been to quite a lot congresses in my short salsa life and experienced as many instructors as I could. Apart from Oliver Pineda, I've met the ones on my list.
How many years of experience do I need to tell how they count?

You don't need years of experience to tell how they count - obviously. The point about years of experience is that you would have had more time to experience more different teachers. Your sample size is, what, 10 different on2 teachers? And yet you generalise from that to "most" teachers.

 

[olamalam]

You don't need years of experience to tell how they count - obviously. The point about years of experience is that you would have had more time to experience more different teachers. Your sample size is, what, 10 different on2 teachers? And yet you generalise from that to "most" teachers.

Hmm let me think.

Eddie Torres
Frankie Martinez
Tomas from SR
Yamulee
BASO
Juan Matos
Nelson Flores
Adolfo
James Cobo
Milton Cobo
Victor&Burju
Joel Masacote
Mouaze
Anne&Anichi
Fadi K
Irene miguel
TNT dance instructors
Guy Lawrance from mambata
Special Tee
Brian from salsaaddiction
A couple of instructors from Russia but they all used to count in Russian
many on1 instructors who teach on2 from time to time like super Mario or tamambo

Edit: ohh I've forgotten Enoch and my love Yoana from YE Mambo.

From these instructors, I can only remember baso as an exception. as I already mentioned they count like one two threeee five six seveeeen.

Besides, this number of year thing pointless imo, as I've written else where. one can dance for 15 years and attended only 1 (one) instructors classes.

so, now i think i spent too much time for you. more than you deserve. write whatever you like, I dont care.

 

[sweavo]

* hears the THOK of bat on ball *

 

[1887]

Most of the on2 instructors count like onnneee two three fiiiveee six seven* Actually in the music one and five are not longer than the other beats so why they count like that?
To give you the freedom to play with it. As long as you hit 2-3 and 6-7, it's not really matter if you step at the beginning or end of the onnneee or fiiiveee. For me it's more natural to step on 1&5 since I'm used to step just after the double tap of tumbao**. but it's also valid to step on the first tap of the double tap which means 4&8.

can you please paste the youtube links where you saw that dancers step on 4&8?

* BASO in NY count like one two threeee five six seveeeeen, which means more or less the same thing.
** Tumbao rhythm: 2 - 4,4& - 6 - 8,8&

So why do you think they are counting like this? Is it in order to give the freedom to step at whatever count in the range: 4,4&,5 (8,8&,6)? I.e. what count your third step is on does not matter that much?

TCT, there are tons of threads that we've discussed differences between on1-on2. Feel free to reopen one of them

In of them, there was an opinion as far as I remember it was stg like, even if two styles are "noticably" different, people might dance with both timing very similarly. Because when you dance to a certain style million times, the way you move is saved to your muscle memory. therefore, even if you break on the first or second beat, you move similarly. Vit made an experiment to proove this point by running the same DVD at the same time, same instructor, same routine, different timings. When the sound is off, not surprisingly they were moving almost the same.

Interesting! I guess this would imply that when on1 dancers switch to on2 they will use Palladium style timing instead of ET timing in social dancing (even if they are trying to learn ET in classes). This because the habit to have the have both feet on the ground during the pause (like in on1 and in on2 Palladium Style) is saved into their muscle memory?
Do you remember which instructor the DVD was from?

Ohh and welcome to salsaforums

Thank you