elbow height

B

ba-salsero

Changui
I'm a beginner and happened to dance with a woman that was more advanced. She was quite set on correcting my right elbow height in closed position. Unconsciously I had let it droop down, and she was insistent on bringing my right arm back up to pretty much parallel with the floor.

How important is that? If I let gravity take over completely, my right elbow tends to point down at about 45 degrees. But keeping it completely level took some concentration. It felt like my shoulder was fatiguing as well.

I had been taught that that the arms on that side should be "connected" (i.e. elbows touching), but does the angle matter?
 
Upper arm parallel with the floor (in the closed hold) is used in competitive ballroom standard, not in social salsa
However, position of the arm depends of the height of the lady
 
ba-salsero said:
I'm a beginner and happened to dance with a woman that was more advanced. She was quite set on correcting my right elbow height in closed position. Unconsciously I had let it droop down, and she was insistent on bringing my right arm back up to pretty much parallel with the floor.

How important is that? If I let gravity take over completely, my right elbow tends to point down at about 45 degrees. But keeping it completely level took some concentration. It felt like my shoulder was fatiguing as well.

I had been taught that that the arms on that side should be "connected" (i.e. elbows touching), but does the angle matter?
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Sounds typical of someone who has been B/room schooled.
And, yes.. the Hold in Cuban style particularly ( altho I teach this for all styles ) does have the forearm/elbow touching. This makes for a more compact frame, and gives much more control .
 
vit said:
However, position of the arm depends of the height of the lady
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Not really. Im only 5.8in, and have danced with many taller ladies... never had a problem with a cuban style frame/hold . They invariably lower the arm to my position .
 
Of course you didn't have problems, but this angle would be slightly different for each lady I suppose (although I never measured it)
 
ba-salsero said:
I'm a beginner and happened to dance with a woman that was more advanced. She was quite set on correcting my right elbow height in closed position. Unconsciously I had let it droop down, and she was insistent on bringing my right arm back up to pretty much parallel with the floor.

How important is that? If I let gravity take over completely, my right elbow tends to point down at about 45 degrees. But keeping it completely level took some concentration. It felt like my shoulder was fatiguing as well.

I had been taught that that the arms on that side should be "connected" (i.e. elbows touching), but does the angle matter?
Click to expand...
Which style of salsa are you learning? As Terence mentioned, that hold is typical of casino (Cuban salsa), and Cuban Son.

Salsa is a street/ethnic dance, whether danced in LA on1, PR on2, or ET on2 - it is not a ballroom dance and that sort of frame has no place in it.

However, you would raise the arm that high to give her a turn. I suggest you watch videos in Youtube from Oliver Pineda, Frankie Martinez, Peter Fige, etc and pay attention to their frame (or lack of) and holds.
 
Hmm I don't have any ballroom training and I keep mine relatively parallel to the floor. Gives the frame a more stable feel IMO.
 
Myst said:
Salsa is a street/ethnic dance, whether danced in LA on1, PR on2, or ET on2 - it is not a ballroom dance and that sort of frame has no place in it.

.
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Unfortunately, that "hold ", BR that is, is all too common .
LA style, does tend to be more towards the open style frame, for which it is suited.
 
Personally I prefer my right arm parallel to the ground - it feels far more secure and I feel I have far better control. If you watch videos of NY style dancers most do this in closed position. Oliver Pineda certainly does, as does Eddie Torres.

Performing a move like the natural top or 360 is always better with this kind of frame also. (In the US it's called the 180)
 
Jag75 said:
You drop the elbow, you lose the frame, and consequently, you lose control.
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Agreed, dropping the right elbow would break the frame, and that is exactly the goal if you want to dance mambo with more authenticity instead of Dirty Dancing with Patrick Swayze. Oliver Pineda is a great example, he made his name competing in salsa tournaments which treat dance as a sport or acrobatics. I am not saying this is wrong or bad to emulate in a social dance setting - it is merely an aesthetic choice. I admire Oliver (I own most of his instructional DVD's), but personally prefer the more raw and pure styles of Frankie Martinez or Mouaze Konate (notice they don't use that ballroom frame).

Regarding the need for a frame to execute a 180, I disagree completely. I've seen Frankie do not one, but chain consecutive 180's very smoothly while connecting only with the right hand on the follow's lower back and even leaving his left hand floating in the air - obviously with no frame whatsoever. His advanced students do the same thing flawlessly.
 
Myst said:
Regarding the need for a frame to execute a 180, I disagree completely. I've seen Frankie do not one, but chain consecutive 180's very smoothly while connecting only with the right hand on the follow's lower back and even leaving his left hand floating in the air - obviously with no frame whatsoever. His advanced students do the same thing flawlessly.
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It is very hard for a beginner to lead something like that without the frame though. The hand on the back is great if you can do it, but I can't. Having you arm in frame at a 45 degree angle however, would be a very poor lead for such a move from my personal experience, but that is coming from a WCS background, where Whips, which are basically like a 360 but in the opposite direction, are as common as a CBL is in LA Salsa.
 
Are we talking about upper arm or forearm here ? I understood it was about upper arm, as elbow height was mentioned (compared to shoulder I suppose)
Maybe those snapshots can come handy for observing the position of it, which is certainly not parallel to the ground neither for Oliver nor for Jag (it's basic CBL, not 360)

http://www.salsaforums.com/threads/clip-of-me-dancing-with-my-gf.24152/page-2

As about cbl360, yes, it can be executed with more or less connection and with hand higher on the shoulder blade or lower at the waist of the follower or even slide it a bit along forearm of the follower etc all of them working if executed well. Yes, if going far apart in the middle of it, right arm can be almost stretched so upper arm would come close to being horizontal, but just for short moment. But even if we are talking about frame, it is not rigid ballroom type frame here, it's elastic (although even in ballroom it is actually not that rigid as it looks like)
 
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Jag75 said:
Personally I prefer my right arm parallel to the ground - it feels far more secure and I feel I have far better control. If you watch videos of NY style dancers most do this in closed position. Oliver Pineda certainly does, as does Eddie Torres.

Performing a move like the natural top or 360 is always better with this kind of frame also. (In the US it's called the 180)
Click to expand...

Personally, I was adressing the mans left arm/hand, the "weak " side of the frame .. Right hand ? im okay with that .
 
Interesting, Myst, I'll check out some vids of Frankie Martinez - just when you think you're sure of something in dance your allusions can be shattered. I'm ok accepting differences with the right arm in terms of position as long as some kind of frame is maintained.
 
As somebody wrote recently, Frankie seems to be explaining that salsa (or NY style at least) is "frameless" dance. Now I didn't dance with him, but from videos it looks like his connection with the partner is mostly quite light and relaxed, yet he is still able to be a great leader with maybe slightly different style than other dancers, which may be due to his dancing and non-dancing history. Maybe that's the reason why he isn't my idol, as I was taught about great importance of the frame in my ballroom days. But now after I learned some WCS, it makes much more sense to me

So now, my opinion is that position of the arms isn't necessarily an indication of a good or bad frame in terms of "quality" and not just visual appearance (later is needed in competitive ballroom in order for the couple to appear having "bigger shape", while in the first half of XX century, that frame was considerably narrower). For me, it's mostly related to body and not that much to arms. Last thing I want from the follower (be it salsa or b/room or whatever) is having big shaped nice looking but stiff frame, "attached" to the limp body. But leading with (mostly) relaxed arms can still be quite effective. For instance, in WCS we once practiced leading the partner without any touching (with "invisible rope") with one american teacher and it worked unbelievable well, considering that half of the people in the class were absolute beginners
 
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