Does the teacher make the dancer?

[terence]

.

I believe, a lot of people can do salsa without a "teacher", well, it doesn't mean he doesn't need to learn, I am just saying, it's probably not necessary to go to any classes. .

Not if you want to remain in the same " rut " --- ANY art form needs a foundational approach,-- one cannot develop sound " anything " with little , or no understanding of concepts .

As for the " latino naturals and others " -- have danced with thousands of them-- and as a general rule, very limitied in their varietal capabilties ( and the guys even more so ) .

 

[Flex]

Not if you want to remain in the same " rut " --- ANY art form needs a foundational approach,-- one cannot develop sound " anything " with little , or no understanding of concepts .

yes indeed. All the great painters could actually draw before they went on to develop their own styles, however abstract....

As for the " latino naturals and others " -- have danced with thousands of them-- and as a general rule, very limitied in their varietal capabilties ( and the guys even more so ) .

Agree again - must be a good day! - and I am sooo fed up with ladies who introduce themselves as 'I am Latin American, I just dance' that these days I don't bother asking them to salsa unless I've first seen what they can do on the dance floor

 

[kkksss]

Not if you want to remain in the same " rut " --- ANY art form needs a foundational approach,-- one cannot develop sound " anything " with little , or no understanding of concepts .

As for the " latino naturals and others " -- have danced with thousands of them-- and as a general rule, very limitied in their varietal capabilties ( and the guys even more so ) .

Well I partly agree, but, not everyone who dance salsa is an artist, a social dancer is still miles away from an artist. Certainly if you put your bar high enough as an artist, then you need structured learning of everything from music to dance, I can't disagree on that. But for the average social dancers, I say, if you don't have major dysfunction of brain/body coordination, and you have some basic understanding of the music, then you can do it pretty well, of course, maybe in a few months time.

 

[terence]

I say, if you don't have major dysfunction of brain/body coordination,


and you have some basic understanding of the music, then you can do it pretty well, of course, maybe in a few months time.

I see you have never met most of my students !!!

As far as basic understanding of music-- many " teachers " do not have that .
The most complex part of dance, IS the music.

 

[Jolinia]

As for the " latino naturals and others " -- have danced with thousands of them-- and as a general rule, very limitied in their varietal capabilties ( and the guys even more so ) .

Agree again - must be a good day! - and I am sooo fed up with ladies who introduce themselves as 'I am Latin American, I just dance' that these days I don't bother asking them to salsa unless I've first seen what they can do on the dance floor

When I get the "I'm a Latino/a, so I'm a natural salser@" I usually reply "Well, I'm a Bavarian, but that doesn't make me a natural yodeler" :twisted:

 

[TheBear_CanDanceToo]

Actually, the professor/coach by their enthusiasm (!) could make the subject/training so interesting, a spark is fired in the student/athlete and even though he/she may be struggling, it is that enthusiasm, that passion, that takes then on to do greater things.

When teaching, this is one of our major objectives.

An absolute deadpan teacher/professor who could not being his/her subject alive for me... would lose me totally. Yes, there are some 'deadpan', unenthusiastic teachers/professors out there!

This is the curious part - because teachers that I perceive as being deadpan and unenthusiastic, still seem to get by much the same as the passionate enthusiastic ones. Maybe it's my perception - maybe their students actually do find them inspirational after all.

 

[SnowDancer]

When I get the "I'm a Latino/a, so I'm a natural salser@" I usually reply "Well, I'm a Bavarian, but that doesn't make me a natural yodeler" :twisted:

:bouncy:
But I would expect you to be a natural expert on beer. :cheers:

 

[DanceAffaire]

Well I partly agree, but, not everyone who dance salsa is an artist, a social dancer is still miles away from an artist. Certainly if you put your bar high enough as an artist, then you need structured learning of everything from music to dance, I can't disagree on that. But for the average social dancers, I say, if you don't have major dysfunction of brain/body coordination, and you have some basic understanding of the music, then you can do it pretty well, of course, maybe in a few months time.

Well if you truly think so, you should spend an hour in the class I go to! There are leads that lack everything at the same time: brain/body coordination, musicality and even the basic ability to count and stay on time this way. I understand thats hard for a lead but there are obviously people in this world who are naturally more gifted for one activity than for the other. And I am perfectly sure there is a reason why some people go flyfishing while others go to dance!

There is such a thing as talent existing and the gifted one's are most of the time the one's who practice a lot as practicing is a joy for them and not a dreaded "must".

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one? My teacher lets everyone go on in walking through the different levels, regardless of the student being able to keep up or not. As I am now on the slow side of class it is my own decision to downgrade and repeat the last level or move on... Right now I am indecisive if I will repeat or take up footwork classes at another school to become faster on my feet.

 

[smiling28]

Well I partly agree, but, not everyone who dance salsa is an artist, a social dancer is still miles away from an artist. Certainly if you put your bar high enough as an artist, then you need structured learning of everything from music to dance, I can't disagree on that. But for the average social dancers, I say, if you don't have major dysfunction of brain/body coordination, and you have some basic understanding of the music, then you can do it pretty well, of course, maybe in a few months time.

Well if you truly think so, you should spend an hour in the class I go to! There are leads that lack everything at the same time: brain/body coordination, musicality and even the basic ability to count and stay on time this way. I understand thats hard for a lead but there are obviously people in this world who are naturally more gifted for one activity than for the other. And I am perfectly sure there is a reason why some people go flyfishing while others go to dance!

There is such a thing as talent existing and the gifted one's are most of the time the one's who practice a lot as practicing is a joy for them and not a dreaded "must".

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one? My teacher lets everyone go on in walking through the different levels, regardless of the student being able to keep up or not. As I am now on the slow side of class it is my own decision to downgrade and repeat the last level or move on... Right now I am indecisive if I will repeat or take up footwork classes at another school to become faster on my feet.

Would your school perhaps let you move on BUT also help with a lower class already completed (perhaps for free if they need guys or at massive discount)?

Best of both worlds. Or if you had to choose one (moving on or repeating) I would actually recommend repeating. Like watching a movie multiple times, AMAZING what you notice the third, fourth and fiftieth time (dirty dancing movie ha ha). Same with classes. You can focus on so much more!

All the best

*I still feel advancing out of your comfort zone at the same time can be good too so that you are challenged PLUS focusing on improving in the lower class. You do the more advanced class to understand WHY it is so important to master the basics then keep focusing on the fundamentals

 

[smiling28]

Well I partly agree, but, not everyone who dance salsa is an artist, a social dancer is still miles away from an artist. Certainly if you put your bar high enough as an artist, then you need structured learning of everything from music to dance, I can't disagree on that. But for the average social dancers, I say, if you don't have major dysfunction of brain/body coordination, and you have some basic understanding of the music, then you can do it pretty well, of course, maybe in a few months time.

Well if you truly think so, you should spend an hour in the class I go to! There are leads that lack everything at the same time: brain/body coordination, musicality and even the basic ability to count and stay on time this way. I understand thats hard for a lead but there are obviously people in this world who are naturally more gifted for one activity than for the other. And I am perfectly sure there is a reason why some people go flyfishing while others go to dance!

There is such a thing as talent existing and the gifted one's are most of the time the one's who practice a lot as practicing is a joy for them and not a dreaded "must".

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one? My teacher lets everyone go on in walking through the different levels, regardless of the student being able to keep up or not. As I am now on the slow side of class it is my own decision to downgrade and repeat the last level or move on... Right now I am indecisive if I will repeat or take up footwork classes at another school to become faster on my feet.

Would your school perhaps let you move on BUT also help with a lower class already completed (perhaps for free if they need guys or at massive discount)?

Best of both worlds. Or if you had to choose one (moving on or repeating) I would actually recommend repeating. Like watching a movie multiple times, AMAZING what you notice the third, fourth and fiftieth time (dirty dancing movie ha ha). Same with classes. You can focus on so much more!

All the best

*I still feel advancing out of your comfort zone at the same time can be good too so that you are challenged PLUS focusing on improving in the lower class. You do the more advanced class to understand WHY it is so important to master the basics then keep focusing on the fundamentals

 

[smiling28]

Well I partly agree, but, not everyone who dance salsa is an artist, a social dancer is still miles away from an artist. Certainly if you put your bar high enough as an artist, then you need structured learning of everything from music to dance, I can't disagree on that. But for the average social dancers, I say, if you don't have major dysfunction of brain/body coordination, and you have some basic understanding of the music, then you can do it pretty well, of course, maybe in a few months time.

Well if you truly think so, you should spend an hour in the class I go to! There are leads that lack everything at the same time: brain/body coordination, musicality and even the basic ability to count and stay on time this way. I understand thats hard for a lead but there are obviously people in this world who are naturally more gifted for one activity than for the other. And I am perfectly sure there is a reason why some people go flyfishing while others go to dance!

There is such a thing as talent existing and the gifted one's are most of the time the one's who practice a lot as practicing is a joy for them and not a dreaded "must".

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one? My teacher lets everyone go on in walking through the different levels, regardless of the student being able to keep up or not. As I am now on the slow side of class it is my own decision to downgrade and repeat the last level or move on... Right now I am indecisive if I will repeat or take up footwork classes at another school to become faster on my feet.

Would your school perhaps let you move on BUT also help with a lower class already completed (perhaps for free if they need guys or at massive discount)?

Best of both worlds. Or if you had to choose one (moving on or repeating) I would actually recommend repeating. Like watching a movie multiple times, AMAZING what you notice the third, fourth and fiftieth time (dirty dancing movie ha ha). Same with classes. You can focus on so much more!

All the best

*I still feel advancing out of your comfort zone at the same time can be good too so that you are challenged PLUS focusing on improving in the lower class. You do the more advanced class to understand WHY it is so important to master the basics then keep focusing on the fundamentals

 

[Jolinia]

When I get the "I'm a Latino/a, so I'm a natural salser@" I usually reply "Well, I'm a Bavarian, but that doesn't make me a natural yodeler" :twisted:

:bouncy:
But I would expect you to be a natural expert on beer. :cheers:

Of course I am :cheers:

Actually I don't even like beer, I'm more of a wine person.

 

[terence]

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one?

YES!!-- - totally---

why would i permit someone to add more info. to an insecure foundation ?

 

[smiling28]

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one?

YES!!-- - totally---

why would i permit someone to add more info. to an insecure foundation ?

Completely understand and agree normally if the person will repeat. However, with respect for discussion sake. What is better:

Say the person is not dangerous but not competent in the techniques for that particular level:

a) Person is not allowed to move on thus quits. Bad skills probably worsen for social dancing or person stops dancing altogether.

b) Person moves on and still keeps dancing. Thus more likely to then improve, keep dancing and perhaps see the purpose in improving the fundamentals. Assuming you address the issues. Weakness, partners in the class may be affected but the Instructor could still teach proper level and up to student to keep up. Partners could learn to be UNDERSTANDING when with this particular individual. UNDERSTANDING and PATIENCE are two VERY important fundamentals of dancing.

Assuming the person is safe to dance with.

What do you think?

 

[catarina]

My partner and I spend a great deal of time and effort planning our classes and trying to ensure that they're as good as they can be in terms of technique and of course, fun.
Whilst I know we are well thought of and are gaining a real reputation in our area for being good technique based teachers, I find myself wondering how much difference it really makes to our students.
With regard to tehnical input, there might be some particular concept that will make a particular move work well, and we'll discuss and demonstrate at length but there are always some folk who watch, listen, nod, and then carry on exactly as they were! Quite simply, they're never gonna get it, or so it seems.
Then, at the other extreme are the dancers I've come across who have never have had such technical input, never had any private lessons, but still can really cut the mustard with their technique on the dance floor.

(Just for the record, I know connection is important too but we can deal with that in another thread)

I know for my part, (and I get the impression Flex is the same) I've learnt loads of moves and patterns from assorted teachers over the years, but I've mostly figured out for myself the skills needed to make them actually work on the dance floor.

So. Does the teacher make the dancer, or does the dancer make themself?

Please discuss....

It seems like others have already commented on the importance of the fit between the student & the teacher--what the student is seeking from class and how the teacher delivers the content. I have taken virtually all of my classes from a teacher who does patterns, styling, and technical teaching in addition to musicality and history of the music & dance sprinkled into side conversations. This has made a tremendous difference for me. I have noticed though, that the advanced class I go to is now almost always girls. There are about 5 core girls and a handful of guys who drop in and out. I feel like the technical aspects that the instructor takes to styling and patterns is too much for some guys & they get impatient. I feel like because this manner of teaching may not be as common, it is viewed as too boring, slow or focused on the tiny details. I can see though, that the gals who go to the class all have a certain level of technicality in their dancing (I'm no professional and have no ballroom experience!), plus we're all really punctual dancers!
From my experience, we have self-selected ourselves to be under the teaching of an instructor who will further our goals. We appreciate the manner of teaching, the style of moves/patterns done in class, and the social dancing suggestions/etiquette. Similarly, folks who just want a fun breezy kind of class without too much meat, they'll find a teacher who jives with that and will progress as much or as little as they believe they can or want to, without any pressure from their teacher if my theory holds true. The technical teachers won't see too much of them, as they'll probably head off to another instructor after a few classes in search of a less serious/particular/etc teacher.

It's late, i'm tired from dancing. i may be rambling at this point.

 

[smiling28]

My partner and I spend a great deal of time and effort planning our classes and trying to ensure that they're as good as they can be in terms of technique and of course, fun.
Whilst I know we are well thought of and are gaining a real reputation in our area for being good technique based teachers, I find myself wondering how much difference it really makes to our students.
With regard to tehnical input, there might be some particular concept that will make a particular move work well, and we'll discuss and demonstrate at length but there are always some folk who watch, listen, nod, and then carry on exactly as they were! Quite simply, they're never gonna get it, or so it seems.
Then, at the other extreme are the dancers I've come across who have never have had such technical input, never had any private lessons, but still can really cut the mustard with their technique on the dance floor.

(Just for the record, I know connection is important too but we can deal with that in another thread)

I know for my part, (and I get the impression Flex is the same) I've learnt loads of moves and patterns from assorted teachers over the years, but I've mostly figured out for myself the skills needed to make them actually work on the dance floor.

So. Does the teacher make the dancer, or does the dancer make themself?

Please discuss....

It seems like others have already commented on the importance of the fit between the student & the teacher--what the student is seeking from class and how the teacher delivers the content. I have taken virtually all of my classes from a teacher who does patterns, styling, and technical teaching in addition to musicality and history of the music & dance sprinkled into side conversations. This has made a tremendous difference for me. I have noticed though, that the advanced class I go to is now almost always girls. There are about 5 core girls and a handful of guys who drop in and out. I feel like the technical aspects that the instructor takes to styling and patterns is too much for some guys & they get impatient. I feel like because this manner of teaching may not be as common, it is viewed as too boring, slow or focused on the tiny details. I can see though, that the gals who go to the class all have a certain level of technicality in their dancing (I'm no professional and have no ballroom experience!), plus we're all really punctual dancers!
From my experience, we have self-selected ourselves to be under the teaching of an instructor who will further our goals. We appreciate the manner of teaching, the style of moves/patterns done in class, and the social dancing suggestions/etiquette. Similarly, folks who just want a fun breezy kind of class without too much meat, they'll find a teacher who jives with that and will progress as much or as little as they believe they can or want to, without any pressure from their teacher if my theory holds true. The technical teachers won't see too much of them, as they'll probably head off to another instructor after a few classes in search of a less serious/particular/etc teacher.

It's late, i'm tired from dancing. i may be rambling at this point.

Nice. I understand! Lucky you and I want to go to your classes

*my advanced classes have seriously 75% men (groan) but following is fun too ha ha

 

[terence]

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one?

YES!!-- - totally---

why would i permit someone to add more info. to an insecure foundation ?

Completely understand and agree normally if the person will repeat. However, with respect for discussion sake. What is better:

Say the person is not dangerous but not competent in the techniques for that particular level:

a) Person is not allowed to move on thus quits. Bad skills probably worsen for social dancing or person stops dancing altogether.

b) Person moves on and still keeps dancing. Thus more likely to then improve, keep dancing and perhaps see the purpose in improving the fundamentals. Assuming you address the issues. Weakness, partners in the class may be affected but the Instructor could still teach proper level and up to student to keep up. Partners could learn to be UNDERSTANDING when with this particular individual. UNDERSTANDING and PATIENCE are two VERY important fundamentals of dancing.

Assuming the person is safe to dance with.

What do you think?

As a teacher of long standing ( getting tired ) I always have to consider the effect it will have on other students--- and believe me-- they will tell you !!

 

[Flex]

This thing about not letting students move up before the instructor thinks they are ready....

I think the teacher should certainly discourage this and it's in the student's own interest not to over-reach. It's also very much in the interests of the students in the higher class, who may be hampered, and those in the lower class, who are benefiting from one of the better students in their class...

It's much easier to enforce if the students are part of a structured course paid in advance. Much harder with the usual drop-in classes in salsa where there may also be newcomers and it's harder to justify a refusal. Until, that is, the student in question has shown that s/he is not up to the higher level.

While good teachers adapt a class to the level of the student's they've got during a drop-in session, I certainly don't think they should lower the level of what is taught in that class just because a student has promoted him / herself beyond their capability. We had that thread about 'should teachers dumb down the advanced class' and my answer is always: definitely not. (Better to announce that it will now be an intermediate class). Commercially not good to alienate your group's best dancers just to accommodate one or two substandard ones at that level.

 

[KP-salsa]

Which brings me to another question: Does a teacher have the responsibility to stop a student from changing to the next level if he did not master the current one?

Yes, yes and yes again.

Too many teachers let anyone pay their extra money and painfully work through a class that's too high a level for them. This has several bad effects: if they're insensitive the person thinks they're at the ability of the higher classes because they take classes at that level, they don't spend enough time honing the basics which will ultimately make the higher level class much easier and it also holds up and frustrates (and sometimes actually hurts) the leaders and followers in the higher class who are actually at the level.

Obviously you're not going to be able to do your travelling turns and double spins BEFORE you're taught them, but a sensitive teacher should be able to assess their pupils and feel when they're ready to move up to the next class if they're at the level they can use the new knowledge, preferably before they get bored. My take is that if they're bored when unable to grasp the basics then they won't stick with the dance long anyway and there are plenty of other classes around willing to let them struggle through higher levels simply by paying their money.

It's hard (very hard I imagine) to tell someone that they can't go into the class that all their friends are in but that person might (for example) be much better concentrating on a proper frame and single turn and doing more social dancing than confusing themselves with pivot turns and multiple spins.

 

[KP-salsa]

It's much easier to enforce if the students are part of a structured course paid in advance. Much harder with the usual drop-in classes in salsa where there may also be newcomers and it's harder to justify a refusal. Until, that is, the student in question has shown that s/he is not up to the higher level.

It's also easier if the student pays a set fee for the evening rather than per class. That way you can say their fee is for their level class and they can help out in lower classes for free but you can reserve the right to refuse entry to classes you feel are out of their depth.

Well, maybe not easier, but it at least help with the reasoning.