Does the teacher make the dancer?

T

TheBear_CanDanceToo

My partner and I spend a great deal of time and effort planning our classes and trying to ensure that they're as good as they can be in terms of technique and of course, fun.
Whilst I know we are well thought of and are gaining a real reputation in our area for being good technique based teachers, I find myself wondering how much difference it really makes to our students.
With regard to tehnical input, there might be some particular concept that will make a particular move work well, and we'll discuss and demonstrate at length but there are always some folk who watch, listen, nod, and then carry on exactly as they were! Quite simply, they're never gonna get it, or so it seems.
Then, at the other extreme are the dancers I've come across who have never have had such technical input, never had any private lessons, but still can really cut the mustard with their technique on the dance floor.

(Just for the record, I know connection is important too but we can deal with that in another thread)

I know for my part, (and I get the impression Flex is the same) I've learnt loads of moves and patterns from assorted teachers over the years, but I've mostly figured out for myself the skills needed to make them actually work on the dance floor.

So. Does the teacher make the dancer, or does the dancer make themself?

Please discuss....
 
TheBear_CanDanceToo said:
..... dancers I've come across who have never have had such technical input, never had any private lessons, but still can really cut the mustard with their technique on the dance floor.....

So. Does the teacher make the dancer, or does the dancer make themself?

Please discuss....
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You knew I couldn't resist.

The dancers make themselves, within their own limits and motivation. But the teachers can help, accelerate or (as in the thread on ballroom teachers) maybe frustrate or set back this process.

Some people, though maybe not as many as think they are, are naturals who take to dance immediately. They usually have good shape and posture and they probably have other physical experience that helps with co-ordination, balance, and precise muscular control. A teacher can simply help them to develop as fast as they can. And also to help them avoid bad habits at the outset.

For the rest of us, a teacher can help to get basic technique right; to coax and encourage and build confidence; to provide a structured class, even a routine, with this in mind; to make it fun; to help partners cooperate rather than get frustrated with each other; to enlarge our repertoire without making the challenge insuperable. A teacher can also provide those occasional real insights or corrections that make a huge difference, produce a real sense of achievement.

Maybe it's easier to answer your question by posing another:

Without a good teacher, would dancers be able to make themselves nearly so well from just watching and trying?
 
Well, if I ever get to a standard were I can feel pleased with myself I won't be giving my teachers all the credit, I'll possibly share 50% between teachers who have been the most help, some will get more than others and some won't get any at all but I'll claim the other 50% credit for myself ;).


So, it's half and half IMO :D



teach-and-learn.jpg
 
"These latin rhythms are filled with fire and soul. I help dancers to tap into that energy and become the best dancers they can be." Eddie Torres
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This sums it up for me.

In my experience, a good teacher could teach a complex move and the student thinks it is easy; a 'so so' teacher could teach a simple move and the student thinks it is the most difficult think on earth!

Without good teachers, it would probably take a good student longer to get where they are going; with a good teacher, they could possibly bypass hours and hours of training by learning the technique that works, in minutes/hours.

If his story is to be believed, this is what happened with Francisco Vazquez - he watched and watched and watched (people, movies, whatever), practised, practised, practised and after months, he had something. Others go to his classes now and learn the moves in a matter of minutes/hours, foregoing a lot of the movies and people Francisco would have watched (and all the nights out too!).

Similarly with Edie - my understanding is, she took her classes, danced her heart out and developed her technique/dancing. When she does her boot camps or workshops, she shares information that may have taken her months to learn/discover in the relatively short space of time of her boot camps/workshops reducing the amount of time a student need, to get to a better level. (The caveat is also on the ability/commitment of the student, of course ;))
 
I would say it's the dancer who makes himself, but a good teacher makes his journey much easier.

Teachers who put much emphasis on technique offer their students to learn good dancing technique to become great dancers but it is up to the student to use it. I currently take classes with teachers who put a LOT of emphasis on technique from the first class. At the school there are some great dancers who haven't been dancing long. They are great because they want to be and practice, practice, practice. The teachers give them the tools. But still a lot of their students don't practice what they learn in class and don't use it on the dancefloor and thus stay in the intermediate level forever.

On the other hand, where I first learnt salsa dancing, the emphasis was on turn patterns. Not a word about balance, momentum, spinning technique, or connection. "Advanced" meant knowing longer and more complicated turn patterns. The result was a lot of dancers who knew many turn patterns but couldn't lead (or follow), were off-time etc. The ones who wanted to become great dancers, invested a lot of time figuring things out for themselves or eventually switched schools.

Nowadays when I learn a basic technique I often think, why didn't I learn this to begin with? Why am I learning this now, after I have been dancing this move for two years? It is so much harder for me to unlearn bad technique that I acquired because I was never taught the right technique and tried to figure it out for myself instead of having been taught the right technique from the beginning. But it is my ambition to learn it right, because I want to improve. I could just as well stay with my bad technique and be a happy intermediate dancer for the next 10 years.

My 2 cents.
 
TheBear_CanDanceToo said:
Flex said:
...snip...
Without a good teacher, would dancers be able to make themselves nearly so well from just watching and trying?
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This is exactly my point - I think some do!
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Well, I wouldn't exclude the possibility, and we've just had the putative example of Frankie Vazquez.

But now I'm thinking back, I can't say that I have actually come across one of these natural self-taught geniuses. But then, if they don't go to classes, and had no prior experience, I'm less likely to have come across them...

But then, I'd just love to believe in unicorns!
 
TheBear_CanDanceToo said:
Flex said:
...snip...
Without a good teacher, would dancers be able to make themselves nearly so well from just watching and trying?
Click to expand...
This is exactly my point - I think some do!
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Me too! Just takes them a bit longer! :lol: (I wonder how much training Fred Astaire had :lol: )

TheBear_CanDanceToo said:
Flex said:
...[snip]...
But then, I'd just love to believe in unicorns!
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What! :shock: You don't believe in unicorns!?!?! :shock:
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Snap! I believe in unicorns too! :lol:
 
Pacion said:
Me too! Just takes them a bit longer! :lol: (I wonder how much training Fred Astaire had :lol: )
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Ah, yes. Probably a good deal of it!

On the other hand, there is that amazing sequence of him dancing with a hatstand. So maybe he WAS self-taught.

Now there are fewer hatstands around we aren't seeing so many self-taught geniuses, maybe...???
 
Actually, I always smile when I see the "mini-mees" that so many teachers produce. I know it's unintentional (at least, I hope it's unintentional and not some kind of plan for world domination :shock: ), but I can see from classes how it happens, it's because the teachers incorporate very distinctive styling into moves without pointing out that this is styling and imply that this is the move and the way it's led. To my mind, moves should be taught pure and simple and then either left to develop their own style or at least given a range of options.

The Bear doesn't do this (when he teaches styling within a move / routine he does point out that this is optional and can be done different ways) but there's one teacher in our area, however, who does a very distinctive hop at the start of his cross body leads and every single one of his pupils does it too - and it drives me spare watching it (mainly because I think it looks terrible, but also because it's like a big neon badge that says "I go to *****'s class").

My other teacher also does this from time to time (not the hop, but confusing styling with the move itself, he does say it's styling but then kind of insists that you do it) and produces pupils who dance just like him but nowhere near as well.

I'd like to think that I don't dance just like the Bear, but have incorporated what I need to know and taken stuff from lots of other teachers.

Getting back on point .... a good teacher's effect should be able to be passed off as the dancer's natural talent - a bad teacher's effect is probably obvious to all.
 
KP-salsa said:
...[snip]...
there's one teacher in our area, however, who does a very distinctive hop at the start of his cross body leads and every single one of his pupils does it to - and it drives me spare watching it (mainly because I think it looks terrible).
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I'm not sure I've ever noticed this... Who do you mean? Gissa clue... (or PM me if you don't want to say publicly)

- And no, you don't dance like me. Or at least, in many ways you don't. Certainly aesthetically not.
Maybe in some ways you do, Jambo - you've danced with both of us, what do you think?
 
TheBear_CanDanceToo said:
KP-salsa said:
...[snip]...
there's one teacher in our area, however, who does a very distinctive hop at the start of his cross body leads and every single one of his pupils does it to - and it drives me spare watching it (mainly because I think it looks terrible).
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I've ever noticed this... Who do you mean? Gissa clue... (or PM me if you don't want to say publicly)
Click to expand...

I've sent you a PM - nothing libellous or anything, just prolly best not polite to discuss local issues on a forum
 
KP-salsa said:
I'd like to think that I don't dance just like the Bear, but have incorporated what I need to know and taken stuff from lots of other teachers.
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TheBear_CanDanceToo said:
- And no, you don't dance like me. Or at least, in many ways you don't. Certainly aesthetically not.
Maybe in some ways you do, Jambo - you've danced with both of us, what do you think?
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I've danced with both of you and therefore am qualified to say that, no, KP doesn't dance like theBear. Both good, but you two feel different. KP's got a distinct lead personality of his own 8)
 
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