Does the teacher make the dancer?

[barrefly]

I used to soak up turn patterns and could easily keep up with advanced... but as I started to refine my technique I can't keep up with classes that teach a lot of material to a shallow level. I always want to go deeper and examine the move but already they're putting on more steps.

Sweavo, I would think that at your level,...one would stop examining the moves and just lose oneself in the moves. At ADS's classes that my daughter attends, she is usually the demonstrater/assistant. Poor sweetheart, though she is an amazing follow, she is a technique robot. There are a couple of advanced leads that I know of off hand, that once the get a big chunk of the routine/pattern down....the start to add their own styling stuff. It's as if, they have learned so many patterns, that no new pattern is too difficult...so, they just let it all go....and just...as they say in music...jam.
I guess what I am saying is...an advanced dancer reaches a point where they examine/explore moves with their heart, ...and not their head.
To accomplish this is quite extraordinary. Some of the best dancers I know, still haven't discovered how to do this. My daughter being one.

 

[chr]

I guess what I am saying is...an advanced dancer reaches a point where they examine/explore moves with their heart, ...and not their head.
To accomplish this is quite extraordinary.

Maybe I misunderstand you, but I think, this quality is mostly independent of the technique.

A lot of complete beginners can just jam. It looks lousy, or feels lousy to the partner, but they can let it flow. They need no technique whatsoever to feel good and move to the music. A lot of people do it on various levels, you may not see it, since it's a subjective experience, but a lot of people told they experience it.

I'd rather agree with snowdancer: I think it is interleaved with the learning process: if you study a particular technique, you have to focus on it consciously which may be inhibiting on the short run. Then it becomes muscle memory later becomes a part of yourself. You may choose to refine it further, but you can anytime step out of the learning process and just let loose.

 

[barrefly]

chr, my response was to sweavo's post. I assume that he is an advanced dancer. At this level, most of the difficult tech. comes from knowing how to control one's movements.

There are 2 ways to accomplish this. One is by "knowing your body", and the other is by "drill". In (ballroom)latin dance,...the drill method is dominant. In salsa...esp. group lessons..."knowing your body" seems to be the prefered method. It's an imitation method...and an advanced salsa dancer learns to be an effective imitator by feeling moves demonstrated by others, in oneself.

As an example,...take 10 people that do not dance. Have them watch an Argentine Tango clip, or a Flamenco clip. Ask them to imitate the movements of the dancers in the clip. You will see a big difference of those that imitate well and those that do not.
Why is this? Some have learned to be creativly in touch with their body.

Such individuals usually have an easier time picking up tech. as well....but this is an attribute outside of tech. Therefore, I am not disagreeing with you, but offering rather, something for sweavo to explore that may help his dance.

Still, learning good tech. through drill, for muscle memory,...is certainly a must for all salsa students.

Sidenote: My daughter is a very accomplished dancer, having trained in many dance forms all her life. She is an extremely technical salsa dancer....but who does everyone on this board seem to talk about?....Magna Gopal. LOL
That is one lady that "knows her body", outside of tech.

 

[Flujo]

Nice posts barrefly. I hear you on your first post but that's difficult to do unless you are in a class where the instructor gives you time to absorb things. I'm with sweavo on this and much prefer to work on a few things in depth than speed through a load of stuff that doesn't have any depth. I believe that teachers inspire dancers to make themselves.

 

[barrefly]

Flujo,
You should sit in ADS's sunday class. (That's the one Missy use to attend). He get's right into a somewhat difficult pattern set and doesn't give you the opportunity to think you can't do it. Next thing you know,..your doing it. Then, he throws on some music, tells the class to practice the routine, then grabs his partner or another gifted dancer (like my daughter) and works on his own stuff while the class (social) dances or takes a break. Sometimes...other leads (usually his most senior students/pals or pro. drop ins) may join him. Then he get's back to the second part of the class. At the end of class, he throws on more music for more routine practicing/social dancing.

It's rather funny (to me) but seems to be very effective.

 

[chr]

There are 2 ways to accomplish this. One is by "knowing your body", and the other is by "drill". In (ballroom)latin dance,...the drill method is dominant. In salsa...esp. group lessons..."knowing your body" seems to be the prefered method. It's an imitation method...and an advanced salsa dancer learns to be an effective imitator by feeling moves demonstrated by others, in oneself.

Interesting.

I never thought of drill and "knowing one's body" as alternatives or even separable: you need to imitate to understand what to drill, then you need body-awareness to drill properly while body-awareness comes from earlier drills.

Additionally I think that "dancing with heart" is completely independent from all the above: you can have excellent body-awareness while dancing completely uninspired as you can be in trance without any good technique or body-control.

 

[Offbeat]

To answer the question asked..I fall into the other camp. I think good teachers do make a dancer (just as a bad teacher can unmake a dancer). Doesn't matter what the "make" means to you.. it could be to inspire, teach right technique, bring out blind spots, make aware of your strengths, or anything else. Yes, at end of the day good teacher can only show you the right road, you have to walk down it yourself.

Talented dancers will eventually get there, with or without a teacher. Even then if you see all the talented dancers discovered or coming of ET's stable you can see how a good teacher can have an eye for spotting the talent. May be the teacher can help the talent accelerate to its full potential. Talent however is not enough. Talent can fail without proper discipline and application. Or it can succeed brilliantly.

Most students fall somewhere in the middle of bell curve and for them a good teacher can make a significant difference.

 

[malcolm]

I've been learning on 1 for about 8 months now. I guess I'm not a beginner any more, although I still do the level 1 and 2 classes every week.

It took me a very long time to realise that my teachers weren't just teaching me turn patterns in the level 3 classes (although admittedly I'm a bit of a slow learner and the first few months were spent just trying to keep up with the class).

What they were actually teaching me was variations on the fundamentals; for example last week, pulled apart, was really just 2 different ways to get out of a titanic, a different CBL, and a different way to get into the titanic in the first place (excuse me if those aren't the right terms, much of the detail is still a blur).

Somewhere along the line, not sure when, it just sort of clicked, and it came crashing into me what they were trying to convey in the lessons. Looking back I was pretty slow to come to this realisation... even in the beginner classes they would hint at this by teaching something like a 1-1/2 right turn, but then would quickly show us that there was a number of ways to carry out the same move (different hand holds etc).

It's quite obvious (well it is now heh :S) that they're as much trying to open our eyes to the possibilities, as they are trying to teach us patterns.


Two other things of note have come out of this. I have to be careful in class during 'free time' with followers who're newer to salsa than I, at a different point of the journey as it were.

I can see them doing exactly what I have done myself; concentrating on remembering the patterns that they've learnt instead of responding to the lead they're getting (or leading in the case of us guys). So when I chop and change and take bits from some patterns (really, just fundamental moves chained together as it turns out!), they'll sometimes be so certain that one move is coming, and it puts them off kilter when it doesn't. It's really quite neat as it does not take long before the girls realise this; I guess it makes me feel foolish that I took so long to cotton on to this myself.

Now I don't even get to the end of learning the pattern before I'm thinking 'hey I could do this here instead!'

So, in my short but fun experience, here's a long story short:

• Great teachers don't just teach steps, they plant seeds
• Great teachers can't make you dance from the heart, but they can steer you away from becoming a robot
• Having this knowledge and being able to do something with it is really difficult and quite frustrating. I know now how a baby bird feels seeing it's mother fly from the nest... I know I'll be able to do that, I just can't quite yet. You just have to ignore the frustration that generates, use it motivate you. Every week I'm able to put just a tiny little bit more improvisation to use... I really enjoy time practising with my regular partner... it doesn't matter if we have to stop because I get 'lost', so I try to improvise pretty much everything (i.e. avoid the patterns I've learnt). I'm not sure, but I reckon this helps a heap.

I do not expect to ever be a good salsa dancer, but with a bit of luck I'll always be able to make sure my partner has an enjoyable dance and a fun time

I hope this post helps inspire other beginners not to give up. I have received much inspiration and encouragement just by reading threads on this forum.

 

[barrefly]

chr, I have raised living proof through my daughter that developing muscle memory through "drills" (technique) and "being creatively concious of one's body" are seperate abilities. (My example of the ten dancers should have supported this.)

It's an extension of one's personality. Much like the way a parent influences their childrens personality by the way we raise/interact with them.
I realized some mistakes I made in my 1st child...and took a different approach with my second. My second is very creative/imitative/imaginative.
Now, after comparing my 2 kids....I learned that my older daughter has abilities that will benefit her in life that my 2nd doesn't have...and vice versa.
I was just offering sweavo an alternative perspective.


Also, the heart can represent many things. compasion, sensitivity, spirituality, intuitive awareness...etc. If you prefer "soul", then so be it. My point is...you can have a highly developed acumen of your movment through one's training (drills)...yet, outside of one's learned (drilled in) abilities, (which is the insight I was trying to convey to sweavo.) you can be like a baby learning to walk for the first time. We are not babies though, so it should be easier to "discover one's motions/movments, creatively speaking, before some instructor in salsa drills it into you. (...and from what I have seen in the many dance classes I have watched, I wouldn't hold my breath).
I am not saying...just mess around (tech. is crucial to a command over one's art)...I am saying...you can learn alot by messing around....but their can even be technique to properly messing around.

-"Before something became accepted as proper technique...it was just something somebody was messing around with, that simply looked good"-

 

[chr]

It's an extension of one's personality. Much like the way a parent influences their childrens personality by the way we raise/interact with them.
I realized some mistakes I made in my 1st child...and took a different approach with my second. My second is very creative/imitative/imaginative.
Now, after comparing my 2 kids....I learned that my older daughter has abilities that will benefit her in life that my 2nd doesn't have...and vice versa.

This resonates with my own experiences: (I am myself a father of two, not that I really tried to coach them for anything serious.) I was surprised to see how different they are in deep personality traits. However I would not overrate my (or my wife's) influence on them. My conclusion was simply that even siblings can be extremely different by nature, in a very deep level, which I have no chance to change.

My biggest coaching success was my younger brother: he was really awful in school, getting always very poor notes, one of the worst students in his class, he hardly avoided to repeat class two times. He was incapable of reading a single book before he was 13. I started to teach him mathematics when he was 12. He quickly became the best of his class (in math, but still sucked in everything else). Two years later he get into a special school for mathematics, but he stayed home for a year, since we moved to another country. I tried to continue teaching him, but he became better than me by then. He proved a famous unsolved conjecture when he was 19 and now he is a very successful professor at a University in Canada (and btw an avid salsa dancer, performing and competing at amateur competitions ).

Still I would not say I made him: I could not do the same with someone else. He simply had it in him. If I did not happen to couch him, he probably would end up without any higher education. I was simply a necessary catalyst at the right place and time, for a certain period. He needed me (or someone very dedicated) then, but it was his talent that made him what he is.

 

[barrefly]

chr,
What was in you (in it for you?) to help your brother? (...not really a question, more of a koan.)

I only hope that I am a good catalyst for my children.
Thankyou for your post. It will be on my mind throughout the day, I am sure.

-My heart guides me on what to do in life and my mind tells me how to do it. It is my experiences in life that shape both.-

 

[vancouverguy]

Partially on topic

A friend of mine (professor) once indicated that the best thing to do for children is expose them to as many things as you can. Don't EXPECT them to be a doctor, lawyer, professor, but rather take them to the ballet once, a ride in a small plane once, the museum once, archeology once, NASA once, show them how to fix something, etc. In short show them the many arts, and professions in as many areas as you can, at least once. Nature will take it's course, and at least one of those times, their eyes will get wide, and they will start to ask questions

 

[chr]

chr,
What was in you (in it for you?) to help your brother? (...not really a question, more of a koan.)-

He did my math homework sometimes.

Seriously: it was an amazing koan. I am sure it made you similarly happy as me to answer the same question for yourself (and your daughter).
It is especially worthwhile to think about it, when you try too hard, but the danger is that sometimes one has to try very hard to help most.

BTW, you may want to check out the movie "Mo' Better Blues". I think it's very good and closely related to this discussion.

 

[Ron Obvious]

So. Does the teacher make the dancer, or does the dancer make themself?

Please discuss....

Hope this wasn't stated before, but couldn't resist to point out that the causality is reverse: it's the dancer that makes the teacher. Just as Platon said: the teacher is bad if he isn't outperformed by his student.

 

[Flujo]

I can see them doing exactly what I have done myself; concentrating on remembering the patterns that they've learnt instead of responding to the lead they're getting (or leading in the case of us guys). So when I chop and change and take bits from some patterns (really, just fundamental moves chained together as it turns out!), they'll sometimes be so certain that one move is coming, and it puts them off kilter when it doesn't. It's really quite neat as it does not take long before the girls realise this; I guess it makes me feel foolish that I took so long to cotton on to this myself.

Now I don't even get to the end of learning the pattern before I'm thinking 'hey I could do this here instead!'

Yay! Another mischievous chancer. :cheers:
Welcome to SF sir Malcom of Chancealot.

Back to the thread...
I know one teacher who hops and skips all over the place when dancing and even though I stopped taking his classes I'd definitely go back and do them for fun and to be influenced a bit by his style.

One thing I admire in teachers is honesty and being honest will help a dancer along a lot faster imho. Add in seeing them doing their thing and enjoying themselves while out dancing and you have a winning combination. Some teachers have an infectious energy that is quite exciting.

 

[John S2]

Some teachers have an infectious energy that is quite exciting.

This can work both ways. I know more than one teacher that needs to calm down. Teachers that are too bubbly and energetic sometimes don't explain things very well.
I do agree, however, that a certain amount of energy and enthusiasm are desirable.