It can be discouraging to pure social dancers for whom dance is inside the partnership, when things take outward focus turn. It isn’t simply not enjoyable if your partner or those dancing around are more into show off or performance mode on social floor.
Disruption on the dance floor
- Thread starter WessexSalsero
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It can be discouraging to pure social dancers for whom dance is inside the partnership, when things take outward focus turn. It isn’t simply not enjoyable if your partner or those dancing around are more into show off or performance mode on social floor.
I believe yhere are very few "pure" social dancers. There are always 2 sides - partner connection and show off. For each person split is different. There are people quitting social salsa (and joinig show groops), because there is too little show in social dancing. Also there are fairly large part of good social dancers, who are more willing to dance if there is an audience watching - like at concerts, bars with a stage, etc.
I have a feeling this is what Salsa marathons are for and try to create. Find very passionate Salsa dancers and bring them together. There is less emphasis on the show since the main celebs don't go to Salsa marathons. There are no workshops and no shows so you know that the people who are going are only going to seek good dancing experiences. They are mostly very passionate dancers who aren't looking to be a YT star. They just want to find like-minded people to dance with.
As the majority of the mixed Latin night club scene is filled with low-level dancing and cheesy music, it's convenient for people to gravitate to where people are congregating. If clubgoers see more people going to sensual parties, they will follow suit. The very confident guys will stay in Salsa where they can still get dances and 'prey' on the inexperienced, but the majority of guys don't get to that level so they switch to a different dance. I think it's in this mixed Latin night club crowd that experiences the most fluctuation.
Long-time hardcore Salsa dancers are not as likely to switch. Ditto with passionate dancers who have been bitten by the Salsa bug. That crowd, however, tends to be more niche. In my neck of the woods, that's the linear crowd. The dancers in this crowd who stop dancing Salsa usually quit dancing altogether and don't go to the dark side.
I think if you are young and interested in getting into partner dancing, you will want to find the most accessible route. Right now, that's the sensual route. When I started learning partner dancing, there was only Salsa (Ballroom existed, but it was too formal for me). Now you have many options. Studio owners are quick to catch on to this which is why they are offering classes in all styles. If I had started learning partner dancing just a few years later, I might not even have started with Salsa.
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I have another theory, which sort of ties in with your beliefs.
I believe most people get into performing because they feel it is the quickest way to launch their professional career. Who has ever heard of a professional social dancer?
Performing allows you to rub shoulders with professional dancers/choreographers on a daily basis.
I also know more people who got their shot at teaching because of their long resume of performing and rubbing shoulders with the right people.
I've been to two of Brigid's workshops, first in 2017 and then again this year. She and her partner Jared have worked a lot on their ideas in the meantime, trying to form a generic framework to describe their ideas and how those sometimes hard to translate ideas can be done in practice.
I'm definitely biased - I love, love, love that way of dancing! It's definitely way less showy than normal NY on2 dancing, so it generally won't look very impressive to most onlookers. In fact, it often looks decidely unremarkable and unimpressive. vit would probably hate it with the passion of a 1000 burning suns
To answer your question on how scenes can encourage creative dancing and more rapport between partners, I'd say some of the following:
An example of this type of dancing would be this:
I'm definitely biased - I love, love, love that way of dancing! It's definitely way less showy than normal NY on2 dancing, so it generally won't look very impressive to most onlookers. In fact, it often looks decidely unremarkable and unimpressive. vit would probably hate it with the passion of a 1000 burning suns
To answer your question on how scenes can encourage creative dancing and more rapport between partners, I'd say some of the following:
- Teachers or other role models teaching the mind set and concrete ways of implementing it
- Some of the respected dancers in the scene taking up the mantle and championing that way of dancing
- A relentless focus in classes on all the necessary elements (many of which overlap with regular good dancing, like good body movement, knowledge of salsa music and the structure yada yada)
An example of this type of dancing would be this:
This is the type of dancing I would expect to see at a Salsa Marathon. High level connection. Looks nothing like Salsa.
I can appreciate the shared feelings one can have while being in this connection. It's nicely executed. Quality of movement is there. Very flowy and soft and delicate like a flower. Give your partner all the freedom in the world.
I love having these types of dances with the right partner.
The question, is, as a dancer, would I want all of my dances to be like that?
The answer is no. I would kill myself.
There is a certain bravado that I feel is missing here and I need to feel that as a male Salsa leader.
I can appreciate the shared feelings one can have while being in this connection. It's nicely executed. Quality of movement is there. Very flowy and soft and delicate like a flower. Give your partner all the freedom in the world.
I love having these types of dances with the right partner.
The question, is, as a dancer, would I want all of my dances to be like that?
The answer is no. I would kill myself.
There is a certain bravado that I feel is missing here and I need to feel that as a male Salsa leader.
I hear you! I would say it's almost a bit more of an androgynous way of dancing almost.
Both Jared and Brigid emphasized that you can't or shouldn't dance like this all the time, and there's no way I would handle it either.
Of course, the song in this instance is very flowy and chill, suiting the type of movements they do. Jared will probably never dance aggressively, but certainly way different to a more upbeat song (I know, I've danced with him!). Which is sort of the point, reflect the music, always!
Yes and this is where I draw a parallel with WCS. To me, WCS looks very androgynous and I wouldn't know the difference between who is the lead and follow if both people were wearing paper bags.
Having said that, that type of dancing should be experienced (especially by a follower) to know what is possible in a lead/follow relationship where both are actively participating.
I'm sure a lot of girls like dancing with Jared. If more leaders were able to give a bit more to their partner like the way Jared does, I think it would greatly benefit the scene.
However, I feel that you can make the experience better for all participants while still maintaining the essence (flavor) of the dance. That to me should be the desired goal.
She is a super good social dancer and also not your conventional typical salsa follower.
I always think it is follower who makes dance look good, than a leader. A good follower makes dance look much better than an equivalent good leader. That is why I tend to watch more leaders than followers when out.
You can have both. It doesn’t have to be one or the other.
The missing voice here is how followers feel and experience a leader who may choose to bring less masculine assertiveness in the dance.
You can have both. It doesn’t have to be one or other.
I had the same thoughts.
Ciaran Hegarty
Son
The woman is terrific. Is she a pro/teacher?
TomSchueler
Changui
I've been to two of Brigid's workshops, first in 2017 and then again this year. She and her partner Jared have worked a lot on their ideas in the meantime, trying to form a generic framework to describe their ideas and how those sometimes hard to translate ideas can be done in practice.
I'm definitely biased - I love, love, love that way of dancing! It's definitely way less showy than normal NY on2 dancing, so it generally won't look very impressive to most onlookers. In fact, it often looks decidely unremarkable and unimpressive. vit would probably hate it with the passion of a 1000 burning suns
To answer your question on how scenes can encourage creative dancing and more rapport between partners, I'd say some of the following:
I find the interplay when dancing with a similar-minded dancer to be extremely interesting and makes for a strong connection and more playfulness. It's not BS/kizomba type of connection, but it can feel very intimate in a different way. The follows who went to Brigid's classes pretty much all said it felt very empowering from their point of view as well, which is a big plus to my mind and probably hugely negative for others with more traditional mindsets.
- Teachers or other role models teaching the mind set and concrete ways of implementing it
- Some of the respected dancers in the scene taking up the mantle and championing that way of dancing
- A relentless focus in classes on all the necessary elements (many of which overlap with regular good dancing, like good body movement, knowledge of salsa music and the structure yada yada)
An example of this type of dancing would be this:
As a Cuban dancer, could someone tell me what's special about this? As someone foreign to the dance it seems to me she often rejects his offer for certain patterns and makes up her own movements? And what about that constant shuffling of hands they're doing?
I imagine it's something most uninformed leaders could be quite intimidated by. Her lazer eye-focus also looks like she is about to murder him.
I have a feeling that follower's enjoy that type of less masculine leading if the leading is well executed, which it seems to be in Jared's case. But it's losing a lot of the Salsa flavor.
Also, the whole aesthetic of stopping the feet, leaning to one side, waiting for your partner to initiate the next movement, does not look good to me if overdone. I watched a few more of Jared's videos and they are all like that regardless of the music being played. That tells me that the attention is being placed more on the partner and to the connection than to the music.
Good partner dancing? Yes. Salsa dancing? No.
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The Cuban dancer in me absolutely abhors this type of dancing.
The linear dancer in me is fine with it in small doses.
The WCS dancer in me loves it.
This is what happens when you stop and wait for your partner to finish your lead. The hand shuffling is styling, but more new age-y.
Followers like her are very often very nice to dance with because it seems as though every input is registered and acknowledged. This ultra sensitive following can make you feel very good about yourself as a leader, but you have to buy into it.
If I wanted all of my dances to be like that, I'd switch to WCS today where I'd guarantee that feeling in every dance, but the music of WCS is... UGH.
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I find it quite funny to see that both Terry’s video and that video posted by Lars are apparently showcasing some sort of new salsa dynamic... they couldn’t be more different. Terry is a fantastic dancer and one of my favourites but he surely leads in the old school way. I am not a woman but I have seen posts where girls have talked about how strong and overpowering he can be. He often does a lot of shines but in terms of actual leading I don’t see much lightness of touch..
The couple dancing in Lars’ video are quite elegant. I wouldn’t want to dance like that all the time but for slower tracks it could be good!
The couple dancing in Lars’ video are quite elegant. I wouldn’t want to dance like that all the time but for slower tracks it could be good!
Wouldn't that depend a lot on the follower's preference and experience? I'll say that basically all the intermediate/advanced followers here ranged from liking it to loving it OMG THIS IS SO AWESOME!!!
Yes, she lives and teaches in Moscow, Russia. I assume @Smejmoon has danced a lot with her.
Like I said, it's the opposite of flashy dancing - a lot of the details and what makes it enjoyable isn't really visible. You got the key concept though, which is a more detailed interplay between lead and follow. So the lead invites the follow to do something. Sometimes it's pretty clear and more forceful (like in regular salsa I guess), leaving the follow little choice. Other times, like around 0:42, it's super open and the follow basically has to take complete control. So there's a continuum. Spatial placement, how you hold the follow's hand, speed, tight/wide leading and probably more I'm forgetting determines where on the continuum a particular movement is.
So sometimes the follow will reject, do a left turn instead of right, bring the lead along for a stroll, perform the intended move but change the level of leading (e.g. from over her head to her hips) etc.
Not sure what you mean with shuffling, care to give an example? If you mean Diana (in particular) she uses it several times to accentuate the clave and other instruments, but not sure if that's what you mean.
imo this style of dancing is very far removed from casino with its more male dominated style and peacocking.
Hahaha, very true! If you're dancing with someone unknown, it's basically feeling each other out to see how open they are to dancing like this. And since there's a pretty small group of people in the entire world who's used to it you probably don't meet too many as far out as Jared and Diana
So if you're uninformed as a leader and the follow goes bananas with stuff like this and the leader doesn't respond, probably time to abandon ship and get back to pattern monkeying 
It's much more intense to dance like this imo, and requires a much greater focus on the partner since both of them can change whatever's going on at any time (within limits obv). As a lead it definitely requires a lot more attention since suddenly you're actually following yourself to a certain degree.