Did Salsa Congresses Save Salsa Music ?

[groovetpt]

3. Play songs of 4 - 6 minutes, so dancers can change partners often enough and not get burnt out on any one song. A bands repertoire should be big enough that they don't have to do 10 minute songs to make it through the night! This seems to be an issue for many bands.

This is a good rule of thumb in this day of Salsa socials and congresses. But it wasn't always so.

The 8-10 minute song is not always about a limited repertoire. Conjunto Clasico certainly has/had an extensive book and plenty of hits, as do La Sonora Ponceña. They, and groups like them that came out of a previous era, typically play songs 7 - 10 minutes long. They did then and they do now. Actually, in the 1980's Clasico would only play 3 or 4 songs per 45-minute set. That was the norm for them and most Salsa Dura bands in that era. And the dancers in the nightclubs at that time thrived on it. No one complained. It was a different era and different dance crowd, I understand that. If you go to a Cano Estremera gig then you know there will be ten minute songs -- don't try to stifle or contain Cano ( he can spend fifteen minutes on "La Boda De Ella" alone, even though he's sung it a million times ). On the other hand, El Gran Combo is one old school group that really seems to stick to the 5-minute song for the most part, not drawing out songs too long.

 

[sweavo]

Yeah, I love long songs... you can really zone out to them. But enjoying them is predicated on loving the music and not obsessing about moves and partnerwork. You have to have a partner who is content to shift in and out of intensity levels and doesn't mind being left for minutes on end to groove without a leader.

 

[sweavo]

It's only because of recorded media that we are so resistant to long songs. We like to dance to the "end" of a song, thank our partner and move on. Never mind that the "end" of most recordings is the point where the mambo section would really be hotting up, with percussion solos, fake endings, returns of coros etc.

We understand about short songs in our band but it is a limit on what we can do artistically. Would be fun to do a night where we try to keep a constant stream of music for 45 minutes with all the arrangements segued. But of course someone wouldn't get the memo and would be stuck with the same partner for the whole night

 

[groovetpt]

It's only because of recorded media that we are so resistant to long songs.

Yet in the 1970's and 80's we had also had recorded media, believe it or not. They were in the form of large vinyl discs ( called "LP's" ) or large tape cartridges ( called "8-tracks" ). Sometimes they skipped, crackled, popped, or got all tangled up in your cars dashboard. Forgive me, I'm joking around a bit there... here's my point.

The Salsa dance crowd back then was accustomed to very long songs performed in the clubs, despite recordings that were even shorter as a norm back then due to the limitations of the LP.

Let's take Conjunto Clasico for example. Their LP recording of "Somos Iguales" from 1979 is 3:58. Short, no? Here's the youtube: www youtube.com/watch?v=PZ9CL1yNqsU

And here's a recent live performance from BB Kings in New York City. 7:46. That's fairly long, no? ( But that is short even by Conjunto Clasico live performance standards. ) Here's the youtube: www youtube.com/watch?v=Q9tf9qYEYio

I think it goes beyond the recorded media thing. It goes with how the culture of Salsa has changed, at least in certain circles ( meaning the social/studio/congress circles ). When I play at the Colombian clubs in my area, or for the older Boricua crowds, we play long extended live versions of songs for the most part. And that's what the crowd in those places wants usually.

I think another factor came into play, before the congresses... Salsa Romantica. Yup. Our old friend Salsa Romantica. Before romantica, folks dancing Salsa were used to extended long songs in the clubs. But with Romantica, you suddenly had singers who, for the most part, were not soneros, and they HAD to sing the songs exactly as on the recording. They couldn't improvise. I think that's when folks began to get used to the 5-minute song. Maybe I'm way off. It's just my theory.

 

[DJ Yuca]

Perhaps the change in the character of salsa dance has inspired the desire for shorter songs. Looking at some clips of live salsa in the 70s and 80s, often dancers are just doing a few moves, many in closed position, which I presume is easier to sustain for 15 minutes than the modern dance styles. Even a good dancer in a contemporary style, who is capable of dancing for 15 minutes, would very probably prefer a shorter tune.

I think it goes beyond the recorded media thing. It goes with how the culture of Salsa has changed, at least in certain circles ( meaning the social/studio/congress circles ). When I play at the Colombian clubs in my area, or for the older Boricua crowds, we play long extended live versions of songs for the most part. And that's what the crowd in those places wants usually.

 

[El Caobo]

interestingly, we worked hard to cut the gaps between songs... the result: no applause! playing salsa music sure as hell doesn't pay, so I'd rather leave short gaps (obviously not epics) and get some interaction with the audience before they head into their little bubble of partnerwork again.

That makes good sense, Sweavo! I'd add that a short break to engage the audience is much different than a break in which the musicians are into a discussion. Engaging the crowd is a very good thing, but as with anything, should be done in moderation.

 

[bailar y tocar]

The 8-10 minute song is not always about a limited repertoire. Conjunto Clasico certainly has/had an extensive book and plenty of hits, as do La Sonora Ponceña. They, and groups like them that came out of a previous era, typically play songs 7 - 10 minutes long. They did then and they do now. Actually, in the 1980's Clasico would only play 3 or 4 songs per 45-minute set. That was the norm for them and most Salsa Dura bands in that era. And the dancers in the nightclubs at that time thrived on it. No one complained. It was a different era and different dance crowd, I understand that. If you go to a Cano Estremera gig then you know there will be ten minute songs -- don't try to stifle or contain Cano ( he can spend fifteen minutes on "La Boda De Ella" alone, even though he's sung it a million times ). On the other hand, El Gran Combo is one old school group that really seems to stick to the 5-minute song for the most part, not drawing out songs too long.

This. If there is going to be improvisation the songs have to be longer. I have heard EGC improvise too and then they go to 10 min also. The one group I have never heard improvise is Grupo Niche - straight ahhead 4-5 min songs like clockwork.

Salsa congresses def did not save live salsa music. Most congresses do not have live bands for financial reasons. They'd have to put up 20-80K extra in their budget for band, travel, extra sound equipment.

The congresses that do have live bands have a very different feel though. Because there is audience interaction between the musicians on stage and the audience right in front of the stage, its a different type of event.

 

[groovetpt]

Perhaps the change in the character of salsa dance has inspired the desire for shorter songs. Looking at some clips of live salsa in the 70s and 80s, often dancers are just doing a few moves, many in closed position, which I presume is easier to sustain for 15 minutes than the modern dance styles. Even a good dancer in a contemporary style, who is capable of dancing for 15 minutes, would very probably prefer a shorter tune.

Excellent point. Yes, the times they are a changin', as said earlier in this thread. Dance has evolved.

And I think everyone can agree that 15 minutes is just too damn long, for both musicians and dancers.

 

[El Caobo]

The experience of "watching" a band of great musicians and being able to observe and appreciate the solos, etcetera, is a good one. However, to a crowd of dancers, that sort of thing is not as well appreciated. Hence, the need for shorter songs. This seems to be the principal difference between a "concert," per se, and a live performance to dancers. Musicians should adjust accordingly. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Smejmoon]

And I think everyone can agree that 15 minutes is just too damn long, for both musicians and dancers.

We should measure songs in kilocalories spent.

Why is 15 minutes too long for musicians? If everyone takes a solo, it will be 15 minutes in the salsa band?

I have not heard that recording from Cachao that would not leave me wanting at least twice as much.

 

[Abayarde]

the almost forgotten 70's Single Versions

In the seventies, radio stations used to play the single version of salsa hits because their owners wanted to dedicate more time to advertise their sponsors.

The single version was basically a edited copy made by record companies in 7" singles (45 RPM) to promote their correspondent LP's. Their were basically targeted to radio stations, budget buyers and jukeboxes.

Same happened on TV shows; Bands managed to shorten their songs to avoid sudden edits.

Short versions of Salsa hits on 7" singles were very common then. In order to listen the long original versions the only way then was buying the LP's or listening specialized Salsa radio programs as "La Hora Del Filin" in Puerto Rico. But, as mentioned, when they played live in clubs, extended versions were performed.

At that time, the whole orchestra was -in most cases- the stars. They took the time to show off their best performances. That's why 70's Salsa is so special.

You may be asking, what they edit then in single versions?... most times they broke up the moña in half, leaving the last part to match the last part of the song. another way to edit was breaking in half the initial soneos.

that was rude because most people knew years later the entire full version. Others had to wait until the CD format where the full versions are the "normal" format. Excellent soneos and horn section masterpieces from the 70's had to wait years until they hit the radio airwaves.

a few eMusica Masterworks CD collections include some of this short versions like "Piraña", "Pan y Agua" (Willie Colón's El Juicio), "Dime" (Willie Colón's Siembra) and a disturbing 3:47 version of "Rompe Saragüey" (Héctor Lavoe's La Voz).

 

[el_Che]

Yes, costs are very much of an issue, but I think that nowadays your average congress dancer doesn't give a hoot about music and doesn't know much music, and that's a pity...
Reminds me of another thread where somebody mentioned that until the 70's they used to write the genres on the records in parenthesis... nobody does it anymore, because today it's all "salsa", even the ones who are a definite other genre...

As for breaks in between songs, song length and musician talking on stage, I think that the rules apply in directly reciprocal manner to the extent by which the crowd loves the band and understands the music.

I can say that most concerts in the casa de la musica \ casa de la trova \ casa de la cultura etc. in Cuba are roughly 90-100 minutes long (at least the ones at the night "prime time"), but because Cuban musicians and singers are very much fond of improvisation (and most singers are great soneros), your typical song is roughly 15 minutes in length (or more).
This means that even a veteran band like Los Van Van, Manolito y Su Trabuco and others, who have hundreds (or at least dozens, for newer bands) of songs under their belts, can have a mere 6 songs at a performance.
At all the shows I have attended, never have I heard any complaints on this issue...

 

[DJ Ara]

We should measure songs in kilocalories spent.

Why is 15 minutes too long for musicians? If everyone takes a solo, it will be 15 minutes in the salsa band?

I have not heard that recording from Cachao that would not leave me wanting at least twice as much.

I would hazard a guess that you have a much, much better ear for music than the average salsa dancer.

Most people out dancing in Europe and North America are not that concerned with instrument solos. I would even say that the majority of them would not be able to point to a bongo, as opposed to a conga, nor a trompet as opposed to a trombone. On the positive note they might just about be able to identify the piano.....
Of course, in all of those parts there are real salsa fanatics, mainly from the Latino communities, as well as some from the non-Latino ones, but the fact is that within a modern salsa dancing context, musical knowlede does not seem to be a forte.

In short, the musical education side is very lacking during our times. So many seem to "like" the music enough to dance - perform - to it, using it as an accessory, so to speak, so unfrotunately the musicians have to adjust to this.

I remember that during my London days I did mention to people that I sometimes like to just sit out a live performance in order to watch and appreciate the musicians in action. Quite often I had the responses to the effect, "I can't sit down when salsa music is playing", no doubt implying that they 'felt' the music more than those who sat and actually watched and listened.

It felt as if this was the trendy thing to say in certain parts of the international salsa scene, no doubt to imply intimate feeling as regards the music. Of course, most of these guys (and gals) did not do much to validate their "feeling" for the music when they were on the dance floor spinning like headless chickens from beginning to the end of the concert, no matter what the melodies and arrangements communicated to them.

I believe that until the salsa scene starts attracting increasing number of people who are attracted to dancing, because they are music fans (as opposed to people who are attracted solely for the dance/performance aspects), and until the few real professionals themselves start making a point of maintaining musical quality and passing on musical appreciation to their followers, then the musicians have to adjust accordingly, while doing their part to educate the public.

The experience of "watching" a band of great musicians and being able to observe and appreciate the solos, etcetera, is a good one. However, to a crowd of dancers, that sort of thing is not as well appreciated. Hence, the need for shorter songs. This seems to be the principal difference between a "concert," per se, and a live performance to dancers. Musicians should adjust accordingly. Just my humble opinion.

Agreed.

 

[groovetpt]

My feelings about instrumental solos in Salsa...

Personally, I like to improvise since I came to Salsa from a jazz background. Salsa and jazz are like two peas in a pod -- they have much in common and both have informed each other.

But... unless ( as some have already mentioned ) it's a concert or a special kind of event then I think instrumental improvisation should be limited. I agree that many music directors should be more aware of this. One singer I work with goes overboard -- he wants trumpet and trombone solos on almost every song. We don't like that so much. Playing a brass instrument in a Salsa band is very demanding and we need to conserve our chops for the hard parts, mambos, moña's, etc. If I get to play one brief solo per set then I'm happy.

If there is a truly great soloist in a band then they should be featured with an "open" (extended) solo at least once during the set... people like Luis Aquino, Jimmy Bosch, Papo Lucca, Piro Rodriguez, Ricky Marrero and many others. These kind of players can really excite things up and if the dancers don't like it then they just don't know what they are missing!

There are not many venues nowadays where people go as much to dance as to appreciate the music and the musicians. One place in New York City still fills this void, the Julia De Burgos Latino Cultural Center (Taller Boricua) in East Harlem. On Wednesday nights you will see bands like the Mambo Legends Orchestra, Orchesta Broadway, Jimmy Delgado ( www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcu9YZhAoHc&feature=related ). If you're in New York City it's definitely worth checking out. The center is in danger of shutting down due to financial reasons, which would be a shame.

 

[groovetpt]

I can say that most concerts in the casa de la musica \ casa de la trova \ casa de la cultura etc. in Cuba are roughly 90-100 minutes long (at least the ones at the night "prime time"), but because Cuban musicians and singers are very much fond of improvisation (and most singers are great soneros), your typical song is roughly 15 minutes in length (or more).

My exposure to Timba is limited, but from what I have observed, Timba lends itself to extended 15 minute songs more so than Salsa Dura does. Why? Because Timba has many section changes and rhythmic changeups (is that really a word?), etc. Both Timba and Salsa Dura have the sonero element, but Salsa does not change much rhythmically once the initial montuno kicks in, which is usually only a couple of minutes into the song. Timba has a lot more going on, so a 15 minute song will have more variety. I say that from watching some of the videos timberamayor has posted, and her analysis of some Timba songs. Like I said, in Salsa, there is not much variance on the montuno/coro throughout the song, so I think after ten minutes max you need to go to another song. There is also a lot of crowd interaction with the groups at Timba concerts -- which I also see at some Salsa venues, mainly the Colombian clubs where everyone is singing the songs and coros along with the band.

 

[el_Che]

My exposure to Timba is limited, but from what I have observed, Timba lends itself to extended 15 minute songs more so than Salsa Dura does. Why? Because Timba has many section changes and rhythmic changeups (is that really a word?), etc. Both Timba and Salsa Dura have the sonero element, but Salsa does not change much rhythmically once the initial montuno kicks in, which is usually only a couple of minutes into the song. Timba has a lot more going on, so a 15 minute song will have more variety. I say that from watching some of the videos timberamayor has posted, and her analysis of some Timba songs. Like I said, in Salsa, there is not much variance on the montuno/coro throughout the song, so I think after ten minutes max you need to go to another song. There is also a lot of crowd interaction with the groups at Timba concerts -- which I also see at some Salsa venues, mainly the Colombian clubs where everyone is singing the songs and coros along with the band.

I agree about Timba being very rich musically, and both the crowds and the musicians loving their mutual interaction.

But there are long salsa dura titles as well, no?
I have heard some 10 minutes + recordings of Herman Olivera, and some very long pieces by Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz...

 

[groovetpt]

But there are long salsa dura titles as well, no?
I have heard some 10 minutes + recordings of Herman Olivera, and some very long pieces by Richie Ray & Bobby Cruz...

Oh sure, there is. I used to play a "Homanaje a Ismael Rivera" medley with Tony Vega that went for more than 13 minutes. Actually, here's a youtube of us at Festival Latinoamericando in Milan, Italy. ( you will hear the folks around the person holding the camera singing slightly out of tune ): www youtube.com/watch?v=2N7M7ZieZ_I

 

[nowhiteshoes]

Manny Oquendo did some great songs that are 7-10 minutes.

 

[groovetpt]

Here is what I consider the qunitessential 10-minute Salsa performance. La Sonora Ponceña doing Yare with Luisito Carrion on lead vocals and an extended trumpet solo by the great Luis Aquino. Not a dull moment here, folks! As good as it gets.

www youtube.com/watch?v=4F8dx9rU1mQ

 

[El Caobo]

Here is what I consider the qunitessential 10-minute Salsa performance. La Sonora Ponceña doing Yare with Luisito Carrion on lead vocals and an extended trumpet solo by the great Luis Aquino. Not a dull moment here, folks! As good as it gets.

www youtube.com/watch?v=4F8dx9rU1mQ

Very nice!