Dancing On3

[Chris_Yannick]

Also I remember some youtube videos and other websites which said 2,4,6,8 in Salsa are upbeats and the "&" are the half beat are syncopations. Confused a hell out of me since the western music/pop theory suggests the & were the upbeats.

The dancer in me thinks it's weird to label any beat as purely 'up' or purely 'down'. Dancers often cheat when trying to syncopate, which makes transcribing shines into counts a frustrating exercise. Drives me bonkers when teachers use numbers to count extremely syncopated shines.

This is why I prefer to think of dancing Salsa as dancing to rhythms. Clave is a rhythm. If dancers have the time or inclination, can try to figure out the direction of it. But that's already more than is required for dancers to know and only obssessive dancers like me care whether Clave is 2/3 or 3/2.

Dancers need to have these numbered rhythms filtered down to something that's easier to understand.

 

[Offbeat]

The dancer in me thinks it's weird to label any beat as purely 'up' or purely 'down'. Dancers often cheat when trying to syncopate, which makes transcribing shines into counts a frustrating exercise. Drives me bonkers when teachers use numbers to count extremely syncopated shines.

I agree. That is why when anyone starts talking about counts and numbers for dancing on here, I shake my head. To me dancing to the count or numbers will be like dancing salsa to a simple pop music or R&B or metronome. Just robotic equal timed and equal sized steps.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

I agree. That is why anyone starts talking about counts and numbers for dancing on here, I am shake my head. To me dancing to the count or numbers will be like dancing salsa to a simple pop music or R&B or metronome. Just robotic equal timed and equal sized steps.

But it's still okay to start wars based on what count we break on right?

 

[Offbeat]

But it's still okay to start wars based on what count we break on right?

Totally! The on1s are the evil side

 

[Smiley79]

In salsa terms aren't the 2, 4, 6, and 8 consider upbeats?

It would be strange for Salsa to use a different musical structure in terms of counting. Unless something is unique about Salsa, music is 1& 2 & 3& 4&... 5&, 6&, 7&, 8&. The numbers always represented the downbeat and the & was always the upbeat.

 

[1derpalm]

The dancer in me thinks it's weird to label any beat as purely 'up' or purely 'down'. Dancers often cheat when trying to syncopate, which makes transcribing shines into counts a frustrating exercise. Drives me bonkers when teachers use numbers to count extremely syncopated shines.

Eddie Torres teaches with melodies. He had 1 that was similar to "My boyfriend's back". He tried to remember the name. I said it and he made sing it in front of the entire workshop.
Then Katya smiled at me and I got too scared to ask her to dance that night.

 

[Offbeat]

It would be strange for Salsa to use a different musical structure in terms of counting. Unless something is unique about Salsa, music is 1& 2 & 3& 4&... 5&, 6&, 7&, 8&. The numbers always represented the downbeat and the & was always the upbeat.

If you check the references, all the dancers and some of them musicians consider dancing salsa on 2,4,6,8 as dancing on upbeat. The same on some of the YouTube I revisited but I don't know their veracity. YouTube search is really bad to and returns a lot of clips about counting and dancig to the beat. My conclusion is that the salsa dancing does use it that way. I didn't say it is in context of its musical structure.


I don't know why and I don't really have an axe to grind. So till someone comes up with a good coherent explanation to the opposite, 2,3,4,8 dancing is upbeat again as I keep on saying let's not bring musician and musician's counts into it. That is like whether bar is eight count (which is what dancers call a bar) or 4 count (which is musician's bar).

 

[Chris_Yannick]

If you check the references, all the dancers and some of them musicians consider dancing salsa on 2,4,6,8 as dancing on upbeat. The same on some of the YouTube I revisited but I don't know their veracity. YouTube search is really bad to and returns a lot of clips about counting and dancig to the beat. My conclusion is that the salsa dancing does use it that way. I didn't say it is in context of its musical structure.


I don't know why and I don't really have an axe to grind. So till someone comes up with a good coherent explanation to the opposite, 2,3,4,8 dancing is upbeat again as I keep on saying let's not bring musician and musician's counts into it. That is like whether bar is eight count (which is what dancers call a bar) or 4 count (which is musician's bar).

Ok I see where you're coming from. For a dancer, beats 2,4,6,8 correspond to the &'s in one musical bar.

Dancers count: 12345678
Musicians count: 1&2&3&4&

So the upbeat corresponds to the 2,4,6,8 beats for the dancer (the bolded)

You know who else agrees with you? Mek does (Captain Salsa!). So if he said it, then it must be right

It's still confusing though to refer to those beats as upbeats since dancers (On2 dancers especially) step down on those 'upbeats'.

This ties in to the discussion about chord beats. Dancers sometimes use the term chord beats to refer to beats 1,3,5,7... which are the downbeats. I prefer not using the term downbeat when talking about dancing.

Upbeat is even stranger in the context of dancing. As if those beats had this airy fairy quality to them, but that couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Bostontraitor]

If you dance on 1 or on 2, but you are a bit drunk. you end up dancing on 3.

 

[TokyoDancerDoll]

Ok, so I read a little bit of this, but it’s long and not been recently updated, so I’m curious. I went to dance salsa in NY for the first time this past August. I live in Japan and started dancing salsa on 1, 2, and some Cuban here only. So, my experience in NY was that most people dance straight up on 2, a few asked me “on 1 or 2” which I never answer, I tell the lead to choose and lead me. But, I had 2 interesting situations where the lead asked me “on 1, 2, or, 3”, to which I replied my usual “you choose” and on 3 it was! I had never purposely danced on 3 before (well, once in Japan someone non-Japanese mentioned it was a thing but that’s all I’d heard of it until now).

What and why is on 3??

 

[Offbeat]

So, my experience in NY was that most people dance straight up on 2, a few asked me “on 1 or 2” which I never answer, I tell the lead to choose and lead me.

At which social were you asked that. A bit surprised. Since as you say the NYers are popular socials patronized by trained dancers will dance straight up on2.

There are dancing places in NY which are patronized by the more vernacular dancers. They didn’t go to any salsa school. They too mostly dance on2.

What and why is on 3??

From the posts on the forum, it is said that on3 is danced in PR. You can search for that discussion.

 

[Offbeat]

But, I had 2 interesting situations where the lead asked me “on 1, 2, or, 3”, to which I replied my usual “you choose” and on 3 it was!

Why didn’t you say on4?

 

[Gaviota]

What and why is on 3??

Not sure that helps you, but I'd describe "on 3" as the "a tiempo" sibling of son timing. And that as such, "on 3" is a bit of a misnomer because the emphasis isn't on the break step (3, 7) but on the third step of each triple (1 and 5).

The gentleman in red in this video from that salsa legends festival (other thread) is dancing on 3, part of the time at least (background, right side)

 

[1derpalm]

I love dancing on 3. Salsa on 3ni rarely get to dance.
Cumbria almost always on 3.
If I need to dance to a cumbia-ish song and I have a competent partner, I dance casino on 3.

 

[Gaviota]

I love dancing on 3. Salsa on 3ni rarely get to dance.
Cumbria almost always on 3.
If I need to dance to a cumbia-ish song and I have a competent partner, I dance casino on 3.

Can you put on a "I have the music in my blood" persona and just dance on 3? I find that a lot of followers can deal with it quite well, because there's enough of those leads around. Mind you this works better with casino for me. (But that's probably in my head, imagining my linea partners to be judgemental. Which is not a far-fetched fantasy.)

 

[eclo]

Can you put on a "I have the music in my blood" persona and just dance on 3? I find that a lot of followers can deal with it quite well, because there's enough of those leads around. Mind you this works better with casino for me. (But that's probably in my head, imagining my linea partners to be judgemental. Which is not a far-fetched fantasy.)

I find on3 also works better with a lot of timba music so that helps. I realised when really thinking I'd danced on3 a fair bit in casino but never really paid attention to if being on3, because if it just fits with the music it fits and feels natural.

 

[1derpalm]

Can you put on a "I have the music in my blood" persona and just dance on 3? I find that a lot of followers can deal with it quite well, because there's enough of those leads around. Mind you this works better with casino for me. (But that's probably in my head, imagining my linea partners to be judgemental. Which is not a far-fetched fantasy.)

Yes they be judgemental toon 3. I don't treat it as on 3. I treat it as in 1. ONE. 34FIVE. 78ONE. BASICALLY son Cubano but 1 beat later (I don't see Sonny's kn 2, but on 8, like my cuban teachers say). It is the same cadence... almost. Sonny's smoother, the on3 is a bit.. pepper

 

[1derpalm]

I danced with 2 cuban girls the other night and decided that I am never going to comment on cuban dancing ever again. It was horrendous. One didnt hold the beat, another kept breaking in 3 or 7 and kept saying "I follow you". I feel that my lead of a cubana is so bad that i won't even dance cuban with my n.a friends that also only dance cuban... that i can lead quite well.
I should have danced on 3 but the song didnt tell me too.
Also my back was in so much pain that i (as a non "partaker") consumed some w**d butter. Helped my back but halfway through a dance i thought i was sitting in a park with a tall man in a tuxedo and a bugs bunny mask. It wore off long before that dance, but i could only dance on the 1 that night as i couldnt challenge myself.
It was from this album (that I have):
View attachment 3883View attachment 3884

I have since grown in my skills at leading MOST cubanas

 

[Offbeat]

I realised when really thinking I'd danced on3 a fair bit in casino but never really paid attention to if being on3, because if it just fits with the music it fits and feels natural.

Are you saying you didn’t know you were dancing on3 till after the fact?

There are no rights and wrongs. If it fits the music, feels natural, and the partner is fine with it, go for it. That is all that matters.

 

[Offbeat]

(But that's probably in my head, imagining my linea partners to be judgemental. Which is not a far-fetched fantasy.)

Yes, you have prejudice towards them that’s been apparent in your posts. Only once or twice in year I will run into a judgemental follower if at all. Over the last ten years I can count only 3 or 4 max.

Yes they be judgemental toon 3.

Who? The Latinas in your local scene that you complain about ?