Cuban casino – what beat to start on?

J

JKClyKSDxWh2PpqsJiHHX5bs8

Changui
When I’ve learned casino and rueda, the steps have always been introduced as 123 567.

As a musician, I related this to musical terms, assuming you hear the tempo as 8 quarter notes spread over two bar phrases of music – so you’d start with the "1" step on the downbeat of the first bar.

My local cuban teacher, on the other hand, when we are doing rueda, rarely seems to start my musical brain hears as the first beat of the bar. I have somtimes found the same thing in Cuba – some taxi dancers and teachers insist that I am dancing on the wrong beat, and they want to dance on what as far as I know is son timing – starting on the 2, while other dancers and teachers I have absolutely no trouble with in that regard. Just wondering if there’s a consensus – in general is it expected that you dance casino on 1 or 2 of the *music*?

Assuming you are expected to dance on 1 and your partner insists on dancing on 2 even if it feels all wrong to you – how to you handle it? Any diplomatic ways of dealing with this? For me there are certain songs that to me lend themselves very easily to dancing on either beat, and others that feel unsuited to dancing on 2, and it’s led to some uncomfortable situations with insistent teachers and taxi dancers in Cuba.
 
Actually, each of them is fine, but the most popular ones are dancing "On1", and dancing "On2". (Dancing "On3" is not unheard of, but it is less common, and dancing "On4" is extremely rare).

-----

As for being diplomatic:

-In class: Follow the instructions of your teacher.

-At socials: Be adaptive - If your follower seems to "groove" differently - adjust!
 
JKClyKSDxWh2PpqsJiHHX5bs8 said:
When I’ve learned casino and rueda, the steps have always been introduced as 123 567.

As a musician, I related this to musical terms, assuming you hear the tempo as 8 quarter notes spread over two bar phrases of music – so you’d start with the "1" step on the downbeat of the first bar.

My local cuban teacher, on the other hand, when we are doing rueda, rarely seems to start my musical brain hears as the first beat of the bar. I have somtimes found the same thing in Cuba – some taxi dancers and teachers insist that I am dancing on the wrong beat, and they want to dance on what as far as I know is son timing – starting on the 2, while other dancers and teachers I have absolutely no trouble with in that regard. Just wondering if there’s a consensus – in general is it expected that you dance casino on 1 or 2 of the *music*?

Assuming you are expected to dance on 1 and your partner insists on dancing on 2 even if it feels all wrong to you – how to you handle it? Any diplomatic ways of dealing with this? For me there are certain songs that to me lend themselves very easily to dancing on either beat, and others that feel unsuited to dancing on 2, and it’s led to some uncomfortable situations with insistent teachers and taxi dancers in Cuba.
Click to expand...
I haven't ever found people starting on2 in casino, sadly because I like casino contratiempo to many songs, but on3 is very common among the Cubans I've danced with. One teacher who was a street dancer, not a trained dancer, used to count 123 123, but always started on the 3. I had to quietly explain that to a guy in class who was asking about it one time. The tecahewr was counting the steps, not the beat. The whole 123 567 thing didn't show up in Sweden until after linear dancing became more popular here and people had gotten used to (come to expect) that method of counting.
 
timberamayor said:
One teacher who was a street dancer, not a trained dancer, used to count 123 123, but always started on the 3.
Click to expand...
I have encountered that in Cuba and anywhere, sometimes even people teaching counting "123" - wherever.
You could say to many Cubans it's more of a relative system: The one is where you decide it to be, and all of the other steps adapt to it. The Do-Re-Mi of counting, so to say... :D
 
Now that I think about it, timberamayor, it probably was starting on the 3 that I was having the issue with – I am usually very happy with either 1 or the 2 – with the 2 I am usually dancing with the bass line in focus, but with the 3 your steps or figures are bleeding over into the next phrase of music. I’ll have to start practicing on 3 so I’m ready for it.

Any ideas why people might intentionally be starting on the 3?

timberamayor said:
I haven't ever found people starting on2 in casino, sadly because I like casino contratiempo to many songs, but on3 is very common among the Cubans I've danced with. One teacher who was a street dancer, not a trained dancer, used to count 123 123, but always started on the 3. I had to quietly explain that to a guy in class who was asking about it one time. The tecahewr was counting the steps, not the beat. The whole 123 567 thing didn't show up in Sweden until after linear dancing became more popular here and people had gotten used to (come to expect) that method of counting.
Click to expand...
 
JKClyKSDxWh2PpqsJiHHX5bs8 said:
Any ideas why people might intentionally be starting on the 3?
Click to expand...
1) Why not? It could be very intuitive and musical. I really like On3.

2) It is not even anything new. Casino On3 had always been there. Some would even argue it was there before On1.

3) Some other Cuban dances were being danced On3 too: Bolero is On3, and I might be wrong on this one, but I think Danzon is danced 3-4-1 (but doesn't break On3).
 
JKClyKSDxWh2PpqsJiHHX5bs8 said:
Any ideas why people might intentionally be starting on the 3?
Click to expand...
Most cubans that dance On3 are probably not aware that they dance what you call "On3" but dance that way because it feels good to them. Dance instructors know they dance On3 and dance that way because it feels good to them.

In regards to what beat to start on, it probably depends on your scene what most people are used to. In my experience many followers can follow any count as long as you're consistent. However, some might get lost if they're not used to it.
 
Dissonant Harmony said:
1) Why not? It could be very intuitive and musical. I really like On3.

2) It is not even anything new. Casino On3 had always been there. Some would even argue it was there before On1.

3) Some other Cuban dances were being danced On3 too: Bolero is On3, and I might be wrong on this one, but I think Danzon is danced 3-4-1 (but doesn't break On3).
Click to expand...

1 – Yes the confusion for me was that if someone is saying 123 567, I tend to think of that as corresponding to beats as they are referred to by musicians. So if they’re dancing 234 678 or 345 781 but referring to it as 123 567 it just throws me as a musician. My only question then would be does it matter that the dance figures also tend to have phrasing that follows the music and your dance phrases are going to be ending out of sync with the music – eg if you are ending a sombrero on the 1 just as the music is going into a rumba breakdown – what do you do? Are you going to continue into the rumba section on the 3 I guess?

2- Sure – I wasn’t trying to indicate that this was any kind of new development, nor was I trying to pick a fight with folks here, just curious to understand if there’s any kind of consensus – IE have I been doing it wrong all along because I mistakenly correlated musical beat numbers with dance step numbers and starting on 3 is the preferred way to do it.

3 - Interesting, I did not know that. I tried to find a bolero teacher in Cuba but all the teachers I asked about it laughed and indicated that it was a forgotten thing from the distant past.
 
I was taught Danzon us on the second strike of clave (either side) which is 2 (clave for Danzon and Trova Santiguera is: 1 2& &4 / 1 2 3 4).
I should find a video of a guy (teacher) counting 123 567 properly but not stepping till 3. Its maddening to my brain. But yes. Some older people count the STEPS not the musical counts. Perhaps because its a tiempo or contra tiempo. If dancing Son, Danzon, etc they have specific rules of when to step musically so they just count the steps with the understand ing that you know when to start stepping.
I've witnessed people dancing Casino on 1 3 5 and 1 guy even 7. But other than Son I haven't seen on 2. I tried to dance Casino on 2 one night with an older Cuban woman. She wasn't having it. She said "Son?! No!"
 
Latinjazz said:
I have encountered that in Cuba and anywhere, sometimes even people teaching counting "123" - wherever.
You could say to many Cubans it's more of a relative system: The one is where you decide it to be, and all of the other steps adapt to it. The Do-Re-Mi of counting, so to say... :D
Click to expand...
timberamayor said:
. One teacher who was a street dancer, not a trained dancer, used to count 123 123, but always started on the 3. I had to quietly explain that to a guy in class who was asking about it one time. The tecahewr was counting the steps, not the beat. The whole 123 567 thing didn't show up in Sweden until after linear dancing became more popular here and people had gotten used to (come to expect) that method of counting.
Click to expand...

Do you mean they start counting 1,2,3 according to steps but not the count of the beat. Which would mean the third beat would be counted as 1 by that street teacher who was teaching on3 (assuming the first step started on beat 3). Or do you mean they counted 1, 2, 3 correctly to corresponding first second and third beat of the music bar but waited till 3 to start the step (for on3).

1,2,3 has long been established ballroom. It is not a salsa thing. How did they teach casino/reuda in Sweden with out counting before salsa made 124 popular?

As for it being relative in Cuba, are they at least consistent within that relativity ? Or are they relative in their stepping too?
 
Offbeat said:
Do you mean they start counting 1,2,3 according to steps but not the count of the beat. Which would mean the third beat would be counted as 1 by that street teacher who was teaching on3 (assuming the first step started on beat 3). Or do you mean they counted 1, 2, 3 correctly to corresponding first second and third beat of the music bar but waited till 3 to start the step (for on3).

1,2,3 has long been established ballroom. It is not a salsa thing. How did they teach casino/reuda in Sweden with out counting before salsa made 124 popular?

As for it being relative in Cuba, are they at least consistent within that relativity ? Or are they relative in their stepping too?
Click to expand...
For the part of the question concerning me:
Starting on the "3", but saying and counting "one". And consistent within the relativity, 100%.
That's what I lived.
 
TikiTaka said:
Most cubans that dance On3 are probably not aware that they dance what you call "On3" but dance that way because it feels good to them.
Click to expand...

I get what you mean. To dig a little deeper are you saying they are not aware how the music is counted (more likely) or they are unaware that their feel consistently corresponds to beat 3 of the music bar. If they are always consistent on3, then I would think they (unlikely) do know where exactly they are in the rhythm or the music. Whether that is consciously something they know or not, doesn’t take away the presence of awareness

To be aware of the rhythm and to be aware of the counts are two very different aspects.

“Dancing with feel” to me is inconsistent timing. That is your steps change according to the music rhythm and accents. A simple explanation is varying the timing (on1.on2,on3,on4) within the dance based on how you are feeling the music.

Feeling consistent rhythm is different than feeling the music. In some music like merengue it is very easy to feel the rhythm of the music. In salsa with its complex rhythm it is easier to feel the music without knowing consistency of the rhythm (implied clave rhythm for example).

I think musician’s (and those who have learnt to play any instrument) ear is different. Most common Latin folks that I know dance feeling the music. Only the trained dancers are the ones who have ability to consistently follow and match to the rhythm.

TikiTaka said:
Dance instructors know they dance On3 and dance that way because it feels good to them.
Click to expand...

I doubt a street instructor that had never witnessed structured way of teaching would know they dance on3.
 
Latinjazz said:
For the part of the question concerning me:
Starting on the "3", but saying and counting "one". And consistent within the relativity, 100%.
That's what I lived.
Click to expand...

Ok this is interesting – are you Cuban Latinjazz? And if so should I take that as your recommendation that starting on the third beat is the preferred way casino should be done by Cubans?

I was always taught 123 567 and I always assumed that meant 123 of the two bar musical phrase but it would be really interesting to learn that I assumed wrong the whole time.

Wouldn’t be too hard to wrap my head around it, but conceptually 1 or 2 makes more sense to me if the dancing is going to be in sync with what’s happening in the music – for example, since COVID started I’ve been seeing a lot of classes online where Cuban teachers are doing choreographed steps with a specific song and they *seem* to be dancing on the 1 so that the movement are in sync with what’s happening in the music.
 
JKClyKSDxWh2PpqsJiHHX5bs8 said:
I’ve been seeing a lot of classes online where Cuban teachers are doing choreographed steps with a specific song and they *seem* to be dancing on the 1 so that the movement are in sync with what’s happening in the music.
Click to expand...

They know what non-Cubans want: on 1. That way it's easier to focus on learning more moves.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top