Cross Body Lead/Dile Que No hand placement/styling options

Chris_Yannick

Chris_Yannick

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Staff member
Sparked by the social dancing thread, what do people think about styling after a CBL/DQN? In which position do you leave your free hand?

In general, I don't like to style too much during a CBL. After the CBL, I like to keep my free hands at a neutral position on the side of my body. The problem I see with CBL styling is that it can look a little too gaudy if overdone. This is my biggest gripe with hand styling in Linear Salsa.

This is what I like to see. Look at where Osbanis' right hand is at 0:14s. It's in the perfect place, IMO. His hand is also prepped and ready to signal for the next move.


Of course, Osbanis's body movement is so good that you hardly notice where he puts his idle hands most of the time. My eyes are naturally drawn to his cuban motion, upper torso movement and legs/feet. This is why I preach practicing the basics so much because it will naturally draw the attention away from artificial styling.

Another way to style without looking overstyled is doing what Tito does here at 0:48s. This is musicality at its best. The attention is more focused on his stepping and away from his idle hand - which actually isn't idle here and is somehow connected to the rest of his body. That pendulum motion he is doing with his free hand is perfectly in sync to the music and his body. Amazing. All you see is his awesome sabor.

 
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Even Oliver has changed his style somewhat over the years. It's less Ballroom-y now.

Look at his hand placement after CBL at 1:18s. It looks pretty good here. Similar position as Osbanis.




Some examples of what I don't like. See what Julien does below at 1:10s. Hand grazing across the stomach. It doesn't look bad per se, but this will look ridiculous on most dancers if they focus too much on it, which is what usually happens with beginners who try to style. Also happens a lot in performances.

Also, I absolutely hate what he does at 0:26s. It's so over-the-top and gaudy lol. Bill Rojas does the same thing - where he licks his hand before placing the hand on side - it's so dumb.

 
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Chris_Yannick said:
I grab my pants sometimes too. Seems to happen more with Casino/Cuban leaders. It's also common for Afro-Cuban dancers to grab the pants when doing certain Rumba styling.
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It comes from when people used to dance in suits and they'd need to hitch the crotch up so they didn't split their trousers when doing a given movement, and now it's part of the styling.

It feels good to do in normal trousers but doesn't really work in skinny jeans as there's not much loose fabric to grab or hitch!
 
Watching a few seconds of those dancers does not put their styling into context. I had to backtrack for a few more seconds in order to appreciate their other movements. I think that shows that whatever you decide to do for a CBL/DQN needs to make sense with your overall style and match its theme.

I dance with quite rumba-influenced styling so it won't suit me to stick my chest out like Oliver for eg.
I usually keep my free arm in front of me as if I'm trying to read something written on my elbow for DQN.
 
Chris_Yannick said:
Sparked by the social dancing thread, what do people think about styling after a CBL/DQN? In which position do you leave your free hand?

In general, I don't like to style too much during a CBL. After the CBL, I like to keep my free hands at a neutral position on the side of my body. The problem I see with CBL styling is that it can look a little too gaudy if overdone. This is my biggest gripe with hand styling in Linear Salsa.

This is what I like to see. Look at where Osbanis' right hand is at 0:14s. It's in the perfect place, IMO. His hand is also prepped and ready to signal for the next move.


Of course, Osbanis's body movement is so good that you hardly notice where he puts his idle hands most of the time. My eyes are naturally drawn to his cuban motion, upper torso movement and legs/feet. This is why I preach practicing the basics so much because it will naturally draw the attention away from artificial styling.

Another way to style without looking overstyled is doing what Tito does here at 0:48s. This is musicality at its best. The attention is more focused on his stepping and away from his idle hand - which actually isn't idle here and is somehow connected to the rest of his body. That pendulum motion he is doing with his free hand is perfectly in sync to the music and his body. Amazing. All you see is his awesome sabor.

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Interesting topic. I've thought it over some too. I think Adolfo and the Yamulee guys do some natural looking things. I hear you on the ballroom thing. I definitely don't like ballroom flavored salsa, but when I see guys open breaking and doing nothing, especially on stage, I think they're not very advanced. I think it's not so much what a dancer does but how he does it. The gesture has to look natural.
 
mambocowboy said:
I think Adolfo and the Yamulee guys do some natural looking things.
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Agree about Adolfo. Ditto for the Yamulee guys with subdued social dance styling.

On stage, some styling is necessary (the way Yamulee does it is fine as they are skilled all-around) but for the majority of performers, it looks silly when you see this sharp hand/arm movement flying across the body and placed on hips with ZERO other body movement.
 
Mr Setenta said:
Watching a few seconds of those dancers does not put their styling into context. I had to backtrack for a few more seconds in order to appreciate their other movements. I think that shows that whatever you decide to do for a CBL/DQN needs to make sense with your overall style and match its theme.
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True. I think excess styling looks bad, as in, disconnected. If someone hasn't developed body movement but fully extends an arm or places a hand on a hip, it looks very weird. On the flipside, having really good body movement negates the ugliness of arm/hand styling.
 
Overthinking...

Salsa dancers usually don't let their arms "drop dead",
We maintain some tonus in the shoulder / back / arm to keep it up there.

I think you are trying to analyse things that those dancers don't even care to give special attention to while dancing.
 
Dissonant Harmony said:
Salsa dancers usually don't let their arms "drop dead",
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I've seen enough beginners/improvers do it before realizing it looks bad. One of the first things I see leaders learn in terms of stying is to do this exact styling where they place their free hand on their hips or behind their back. It is also taught in Salsa classes. Then re-inforced in performance settings.

Dissonant Harmony said:
I think you are trying to analyse things that those dancers don't even care to give special attention to while dancing.
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While true that very few people actually talk about it, I see enough of it in Linear Salsa. It's a styling point that people often learn then quickly forget about. Since I'm big on body movement now, it's come back to the forefront somewhat.

I guess it could be considered over-analyzing. For me, it's not any more over-analyzing then people deciding whether to step on2, 2.5, 2,874933222... etc
 
Chris_Yannick said:
I guess it could be considered over-analyzing. For me, it's not any more over-analyzing then people deciding whether to step on2, 2.5, 2,874933222... etc
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For me, it is

I mean, I hate when beginner followers put a lot of efforts in placing their arms the way they learned in the class instead of paying more attention to other aspects of their dancing, because their dancing isn't any better if that stupid arm is in some perfect position by some criteria (whether it is local salsa criteria or congress salsa criteria or whatever), but is usually worse. As long as our connection isn't affected with their styling, I don't care a little bit. It's their personal choice

However, if I step 1 2 3 and they step &1 3 or 1 3 4 or some other irregular way, it does affect our connection a lot, because we move different way
 
vit said:
For me, it is

I mean, I hate when beginner followers put a lot of efforts in placing their arms the way they learned in the class instead of paying more attention to other aspects of their dancing, because their dancing isn't any better if that stupid arm is in some perfect position by some criteria (whether it is local salsa criteria or congress salsa criteria or whatever), but is usually worse. As long as our connection isn't affected with their styling, I don't care a little bit. It's their personal choice

However, if I step 1 2 3 and they step &1 3 or 1 3 4 or some other irregular way, it does affect our connection a lot, because we move different way
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And they need to look for hand signals from the lead. I hate it when follows get so wrapped up in their styling it interferes with the lead. Its like why is the lead even there if shes so self absorbed?
 
vit said:
For me, it is

I mean, I hate when beginner followers put a lot of efforts in placing their arms the way they learned in the class instead of paying more attention to other aspects of their dancing, because their dancing isn't any better if that stupid arm is in some perfect position by some criteria (whether it is local salsa criteria or congress salsa criteria or whatever), but is usually worse. As long as our connection isn't affected with their styling, I don't care a little bit. It's their personal choice

However, if I step 1 2 3 and they step &1 3 or 1 3 4 or some other irregular way, it does affect our connection a lot, because we move different way
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This. Usually teachers focus on styling well to early, it shoult be left to the pros. If you've reached that level it's fine but overall it is a minor detail that won't change much in the larger picture.

I will never understand how people enjoy Osbanis' style of dancing. There are so many moments where he just remains locked in-place, there's no flow, no momentum. Then when he is actually partner dancing it's 90% on1 cross body leads and 10% vacilala. The lack in technique is then substituted by over-the top styling elements and silly figures like putting your feet on top of the follower's arm.

It's the old story: Casino dancers have the technique and lack the proper execution of afro cuban body movements, for Cuban salsa dancers it's the exact opposite.
 
Tom Schueler said:
This. Usually teachers focus on styling well to early, it shoult be left to the pros. If you've reached that level it's fine but overall it is a minor detail that won't change much in the larger picture.

I will never understand how people enjoy Osbanis' style of dancing. There are so many moments where he just remains locked in-place, there's no flow, no momentum. Then when he is actually partner dancing it's 90% on1 cross body leads and 10% vacilala. The lack in technique is then substituted by over-the top styling elements and silly figures like putting your feet on top of the follower's arm.

It's the old story: Casino dancers have the technique and lack the proper execution of afro cuban body movements, for Cuban salsa dancers it's the exact opposite.
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One thing I've noticed about guys with great movement is usually a crappy lead. They don't understand frame and their styling disrupts and confuses the follow...
 
Tom Schueler said:
I will never understand how people enjoy Osbanis' style of dancing. There are so many moments where he just remains locked in-place, there's no flow, no momentum. Then when he is actually partner dancing it's 90% on1 cross body leads and 10% vacilala.
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The bolded part is what I like about his dancing - but every video I've seen him in he is dancing On2 as in the above vid with Karel. Since I come from a Linear background, I have a pretty good eye for what works in Linear and what doesn't. What Osbanis does is vastly different than how most pure Linear dancers dance, which is good IMO. Also, he does pretty simple stuff which is easy to follow. He is also very musical. He also looks like he enjoys dancing with his partner.

If you come from a Casino background, I could see how his style may not be appealing to look at.

I am coming from a Linear mindset and looking at how to transition Casino elements into Linear, which is what Osbanis does and is precisely why I enjoy it. Also, very few Linear dancers can move like he does, including most pros.

I am strictly speaking for myself on how I view his dancing as I know many Linear dancers who hate Casino/Cuban and probably wouldn't like mixing it into their Linear either.
 
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Chris_Yannick said:
The bolded part is what I like about his dancing - but every video I've seen him in he is dancing On2 as in the above vid with Karel. Since I come from a Linear background, I have a pretty good eye for what works in Linear and what doesn't. What Osbanis does is vastly different than how most pure Linear dancers dance, which is good IMO. Also, he does pretty simple stuff which is easy to follow. He is also very musical. He also looks like he enjoys dancing with his partner.

If you come from a Casino background, I could see how his style may not be appealing to look at.

I am coming from a Linear mindset and looking at how to transition Casino elements into Linear, which is what Osbanis does and is precisely why I enjoy it. Also, very few Linear dancers can move like he does, including most pros.

I am strictly speaking for myself on how I view his dancing as I know many Linear dancers who hate Casino/Cuban and probably wouldn't like mixing it into their Linear either.
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That's quite understandable. But simply imagine me claiming to be a great On2 dancer, being invited to the biggest Salsa On1/On2 festivals to teach and then only giving Casino workshops. That's how it feels with guys like him.

"He incorporated in his style the street cuban salsa – casino, which he was surrounded by when living in Cuba. "
 
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