Creep Identification

[Sabrosura]

Thanks -- you make a few interesting points. Can't reply properly now, packing up for this weekend's DC bachata congress and then rushing to Cache so I'll reply when I am back in NY.

Just want to clarify one thing now:

You know there are other ways to unambiguously let a man know that you're interested besides sleeping with him. But hey whatever works

I was clearly not talking about myself, just giving an example, and you clearly don't know me, so please drop the "winks".

 

[tripleg]

This is a generalization, but generally speaking, the more confident a man is (and that doesn't necessarily mean he is a jerk) the more likely it is that women will be attracted to him. By definition a "jerk" or "bad boy" is extremely confident and that is what attracts women. However, I think that women rarely choose those guys as long-term partners. But yes, many women find confidence in men very attractive.

I think, however, that a man who is "quietly confident"--confident but also a gentleman, courteous, polite, considerate--is infinitely more attractive to most women.

You've got the causality wrong. Men are not attractive because they're confident. Men are confident because (or if) they're attractive. The same with dancing. The better you get the more confident you get. But it's not like you're growing your confidence which in turn improves your dancing. No, the improvement in your dancing gives you more confidence. Confidence is the effect not the cause. Same for a man who finds that many women are attracted to him (say for his looks/creativity/money/status/whatever. He is confident BECAUSE women are attracted to him not the other way around.

The jerk or the bad boy is be definition careless and thus more likely to persist past token resistance from women. Of course he cannot be sure whether it's token resistance or not, but he doesn't give up as easily as the gentleman. So on average he ends up sleeping with more women than the gentleman and gaining in confidence.

 

[tripleg]

Thanks -- you make a few interesting points. Can't reply properly now, packing up for this weekend's DC bachata congress and then rushing to Cache so I'll reply when I am back in NY.

Just want to clarify one thing now:



I was clearly not talking about myself, and you clearly don't know me, so please drop the "winks".

I was just kidding. So the wink was meant to indicate that hey I know you're not talking about yourself, but I am purposely misinterpreting it that way to make a joke.

 

[Aurel]

Sorry, but men are also biologically wired -- to like a challenge.
...
Men have been wired to compete with other men for social status, resources, and women, and want to feel that they're "winning", whether they admit it or not; ...

While it is true, that men compete with each other (IMHO the same goes for women), I find it to be really a huge generalisation to assume that we like challenge. Sure, it is nice to be the winner but to think that I need to compete for a women in order to find her "girlfriend material" is, at least for me, ridiculous. I don't value a girl based on how hard it was to get her - in that case I would, by definition, value those know-it-all-better-than-all-higher-class-than-you-gucci-prada-snobbish-dont-look-at-you-unless-you-are-rich-and-have-a-nice-car women the most.

It all boils down whether I see getting a woman as sport/hobby, where challenge makes it interesting, or if I'm looking for a women as a girlfriend/future wife/life partner where I bring something into the relationship and I expect something from her. In the later case, I don't want it to be a challenge. I have my own worth and if she does not find it "high enough", I'm not going to "increase her value" by competing with others like if we (men) were just numbers dying for her attention from which she picks ?one? based on her mood that day.

If a woman is physically attracted to a man and sleeps with him immediately, thus reciprocating his interest, what does the man label her as, consciously or subconsciously? Definitely *not* girlfriend material, which won't stop the average man from going ahead and enjoy that one night stand with her and then never calling her again.

Whether a man sees a women as a girlfriend material has nothing to do with how long it took him to get her in bed.

If he was looking only for sex, even if it took him months to get, he will never call he again.
If a man likes the girl, having sex sooner is just a bonus and it does not change his opinion of her.

The only time "being an easy to get girl" could make a man judge the woman as not a "girlfriend material" is, if the woman would go every other night with another oh-I-know-you-1-hour-already man.

----
As I'm reading this, I realize this is coming from a certain type of man. Surely it might not be the viewpoint of all.

 

[MMaatttt]

Of course there is always your proposed alternative for men to develop extraordinary intuition just to overcome women's deceptions, but I think having women drop the deceptions makes more sense.

Except the study mentioned before suggests that even women can't work out what women are thinking so it would have to be a truly extraordinary level of intuition.

 

[MMaatttt]

While it is true, that men compete with each other (IMHO the same goes for women), I find it to be really a huge generalisation to assume that we like challenge. Sure, it is nice to be the winner but to think that I need to compete for a women in order to find her "girlfriend material" is, at least for me, ridiculous. I don't value a girl based on how hard it was to get her - in that case I would, by definition, value those know-it-all-better-than-all-higher-class-than-you-gucci-prada-snobbish-dont-look-at-you-unless-you-are-rich-and-have-a-nice-car women the most.

Or perhaps you see those types as too demanding to invest resources in. The problem is that status assessment is generally done at a subconscious level and when you try to compare like for like you will already be including that subconscious assessment. Take two women who are identical, except one is quietly self confidant and one has low self esteem. You will quickly peg the first as higher status than the second. The Gucci snob types are just trying to gain status quickly in the same way that some men do by being in your face and macho. Both strategies are unsophisticated, but will work on some people.

 

[Offbeat]

I still think the best strategy for a guy is to develop good intuition at reading the receptiveness of women. (A win-win for everyone!)

I first hit 'like' on your post. Then I read the last sentence and clicked 'unlike'.

 

[Offbeat]

Yes, this is another facet, but it does not contradict what I said above, it just adds to one of the most complex human behavior topics.

You failed to mention women's most sophisticated deception mechanism which trumps all other degrees of coyness : humans appear to be the *only* species in which females' ovulation, i.e. their most fertile period, is "concealed" and occurs without any noticeable signals. Every other species flaunts it, women hide it--so well that sometimes women themselves can't tell when it occurs. While most species' females are only sexually attractive to the males when they ovulate, humans' evolution has shaped women and men so that men are attracted to women all the time. (Studies show that women dress more provocatively and are more flirtatious when they ovulate, but most men--or women--cannot tell when a woman is at her peak fertility; another study showed that female strippers get significantly higher tips when they are ovulating, likely an effect of their dancing more provocatively and flirtatiously). In addition, while other species are only fertile a few times a year, women are fertile every month.

Why so? The reasons why this may have evolved are complex, including to make men more likely to form long-term bonds with the woman given the permanent attraction, and, from a deception perspective, the advantage that women in monogamous relationships had when they were able to have one night stands with other men they found more attractive than their partners (another observed effect at ovulation is that women are more attracted to more "masculine" men), effectively obtaining those "attractive" genes for their children while continuing to benefit from the resources provided by the long-term partner who would have no idea the children were not theirs. See the article I posted on the other thread: http://salsaforums.com/threads/married-and-dancing-without-spouse.22490/page-2#post-252122

Can you please write in two or three lines what you are saying. I can understand everything you are quoting and rationalizing. What is the bottom line? I can't get what point you are trying to make

Are you saying:

(i) monogamy is dead/not needed
(ii) monogamy is useful
(iii) one night stand is advantageous for women
(iv) Even god can't understand women, men are only mortal
(v) Good men should take as many chances as creepy men do
(vi) Woman can identify everyone except a creep
(vii) Woman are better at identifying creep just by sight
(viii) All men should be masculine
(ix) Women are deceptive and mislead men.
(x) Men are pefect
... add your own

 

[Offbeat]

I sense judgment/bitterness/misunderstanding of women in what you wrote.

Sorry, but men are also biologically wired -- to like a challenge. If a woman is physically attracted to a man and sleeps with him immediately, thus reciprocating his interest, what does the man label her as, consciously or subconsciously? Definitely *not* girlfriend material, which won't stop the average man from going ahead and enjoy that one night stand with her and then never calling her again.

Whereas a woman who is clearly happy with herself and confident about who she is and appears to not "need" a man and therefore is selective, is the one men will want to have and be around, because she clearly has "high value". Men have been wired to compete with other men for social status, resources, and women, and want to feel that they're "winning", whether they admit it or not; so a woman that has such low confidence and self-esteem that she just hands herself to them on a plate before she has a chance to "evaluate" their qualities is not what will make them feel like they're "winners", even if they will go for the one night stand or hook-up. You can deny this all you want, but that's the reality and it's not going to change any time soon.

Relating this to salsa dancing:

1. A woman who accepts dance immediately is not good dancing material
2. A woman who makes it difficult to dance is a good dancing material
3. Men will value the woman who makes it more challenging to approach her for a dance



Or salsa is so much opposite of real life and that is what makes it more enjoyable

 

[Offbeat]

73% of sexual assaults are perpetrated by a non-stranger.

I thought in case of rape this statistics is more like 90%. All rapes are sexual assaults. But not all sexual assaults are rapes. I think in most other countries (in legal terms) rape and non-rape sexual misconduct is categorized separately. In USA they are all lumped under sexual assault and sometimes it can be hard to tell if the charge includes rape.

 

[Ciaran Hegarty]

Can you please write in two or three lines what you are saying. I can understand everything you are quoting and rationalizing. What is the bottom line? I can't get what point you are trying to make

Are you saying:

(i) monogamy is dead/not needed
(ii) monogamy is useful
(iii) one night stand is advantageous for women
(iv) Even god can't understand women, men are only mortal
(v) Good men should take as many chances as creepy men do
(vi) Woman can identify everyone except a creep
(vii) Woman are better at identifying creep just by sight
(viii) All men should be masculine
(ix) Women are deceptive and mislead men.
(x) Men are pefect
... add your own

(xi) Men like lists

 

[Smejmoon]

You've got the causality wrong. Men are not attractive because they're confident. Men are confident because (or if) they're attractive. The same with dancing. The better you get the more confident you get. But it's not like you're growing your confidence which in turn improves your dancing. No, the improvement in your dancing gives you more confidence. Confidence is the effect not the cause.

It's not that simple. While you're right that gaining skills improves confidence - it's not the only input. And confidence is about how you feel about yourself. And what others perceive is how you act, not how you feel.

Don't want to go too deep into this right now, but there was a lot about confidence in the non dancing guy thread.

P.S. And growing confidence can improve ones dancing. Relaxed dancer can be more precise, more fluid. Dancer who takes risks will be more interesting. Confident lead will be so much better.. I can go on.

 

[Idalis]

Do *you* "realize" the tone of your post is a little offensive..?

Sorry, no matter how I try to explain this you probably won't understand since you're not a woman.

Yes, women have a sixth sense. It's called intuition, maybe you've heard of *that*...?

Ask any woman about what I said and she'll tell you.

It's *not* mind reading, it's the (conscious or subconscious) interpretation of subtle clues that a lot of men would probably miss.

And one reason a woman develops this throughout her life is because of the fact that unlike for a man, for a woman the potential of bodily harm in the form of rape is unfortunately a risk that is always there; it's not something anyone likes to think about but yes, it unfortunately has to be at the back of our mind when we are walking alone at night, or in an unfamiliar neighborhood, etc. That's why it's hard for you as a man to understand this, that women, for example, are able to "sense" when they're being "followed" even though we haven't actually seen the person that's following us. In the same way, a "creepy" man will give off certain signals that may not be immediately visible to a man but that a woman will pick up on, consciously or subconsciously. The way he holds you during the dance, what you see when you look into his eyes, etc., all these things give off clues that women pick up on.

You might have also heard the stories about women who accepted a man's invitation for a drink or a ride home and then that man abused them--the women will say that "they knew something didn't feel right" but they went with him anyway because they thought they were "imagining things".

Same for women in abusive or just bad relationships, they will say that they saw the "red flags" from the beginning but ignored their "gut feeling".

You have obviously not had a chance to learn to understand women--don't worry, you're still young so you have time... (sorry if that sounded offensive, it's not intended to.)

P.S. A lot of men develop this "sixth sense" as well, especially those who grow up in rough neighborhoods, but for the reasons above it seems to be a lot more common in women. Another interesting fact is that people who grow up with abusive parents tend to be *much* better than average at body language and facial expression reading--they can't explain *how* they do it, but they are able to read a person's thoughts very well that way.

Preach!!! Ive commented on this on another thread, but we definitely have to look out for ourselves on the Salsa scene even. There are some guys out there who are only out there to cop a feel and its disgusting, that's why Im becoming more wary of bachata because some men, not all, want to turn it into 1-3rd base. I also became aware of another trick some guys try to lure you in is by claiming they are instructors and can provide you "private" lessons or be their new salsa "partner". Not a bad idea to connect with other women on the scene or to start the dance experience with a well established salsa studio to connect with healthy minded people and avoid the lurches.

 

[SnowDancer]

I also became aware of another trick some guys try to lure you in is by claiming they are instructors and can provide you "private" lessons or be their new salsa "partner".

Women have told me about a couple guys in my scene who do this. What's disturbing is to see so many women fall for it!

 

[noobster]

Leaving his social awkwardness aside, her perception of him as "needy" is a vicious circle. If she found him attractive, she would love the fact that he only has eyes for her and it could turn into dating/a relationship. But she doesn't find him attractive so his behavior looks needy and she finds herself looking down on him, so he appears even less attractive than in the beginning, and so on.

I'll just leave this gem here:

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[TikiTaka]

Is there a way to keep guys who intimidate women or make them feel uncomfortable out of the scene? Seems to be a common phenomenon.

 

[1derpalm]

Is there a way to keep guys who intimidate women or make them feel uncomfortable out of the scene? Seems to be a common phenomenon.

Youd think there is. But my big bone of contention and a trigger for me....
In 2 of the scenes I frequent, they will arbitrarily choose an out of towner and mark him a creeper (unfounded, and evidence dictates not me) even if they ste respectable, but put up with guys in their own scene that:
Block girls from passing on a stairwell to try to kiss them,
Try to make out with girls who are dating (or think they are... sed below) and when the girl says "no", they say "I'm not trying to hear that.."
Asks whinily "whyyyyy?" When a girl says they arent going to sleep with a guy,
Sleep with out of town girls when their gf is away and then play the feel guilty card (happened to 2 of my friends with same guy).
Speaking on the "I'm not trying g to hear that", guy, my friend approached the guy she thought she was seeing and another 2 girls and their answer was "you just need to put him in his place".
Yet another reason I hate the upper echelon.

 

[Smiley79]

Is there a way to keep guys who intimidate women or make them feel uncomfortable out of the scene? Seems to be a common phenomenon.

Embed an SOG pup into their pillow to be found.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Is there a way to keep guys who intimidate women or make them feel uncomfortable out of the scene? Seems to be a common phenomenon.

Is it a big problem where you are? I honestly don’t see it nor hear about it here.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

Yet another reason I hate the upper echelon.

Upper echelon = good dancers?

I remember a couple of clubs in TO that gave off sleazy vibes and would attract younger as well as older people. These mixed club crowds along with the power posse (well-connected patrons) were breeding grounds for unseemly behavior.

And what is creepy? Is it someone who goes around sleeping with everyone? Because those I know who are successful getting girls into bed aren't seen as creeps but desirable, which is why it keeps happening.

Those who are unsuccessful at it are seen as the creeps, but they don't last in the scene.