Creating a prodigy

B

Blair

Changui
I had this discussion with one of the DJs that has been in the salsa scene for years now and has seen it all.

Basically last night I was out at a University event that has classes and socials with a fairly respectable teacher. The place is packed, he must get about 100 students or something...probably the biggest class in Edinburgh.

...and out of these 100 people none of them are as hardcore as...me? Infact I'd say that even in the whole of Edinburgh no one is going as hardcore as me.

So it made me wonder, what type of people turn into hardcore folk? Like most of us here, we all want to improve but I'd like to talk about the EXTREMES. I think I've lost a month of my life doing a basic infront of a mirror haha

So...

How do you create these hardcore people that REALLY want to get good (I mean very good)?
Why is it that only certain people want to push themselves to limits?

I'm probably explaining it rubbish but basically you know the people. We come to classes 5 times a week, social every night that is on, self-improve at home, live and breath it. Want to be the best.
 
People get into different stuff, and have various addictions. Out of those 100 people who knows where everyone's priorities actually lie - some may be into playing music, in the football team, or whatever. We only have so much time in the week, and so we can't do everything full-on. If you want to be good, or produce at a high level, you need to practice, and that takes time.

The other thing to think about is how you might change in x amount of years. I was chatting to a guy like you who learned salsa early on, and really moved to a high level quite quickly. Now he doesn't go out that much (nothing like he used to) and takes things in a far more relaxed fashion.

At the end of the day, as long as you are happy with your progress, and meeting all the various challenges as they arise, then whatever else others do/or don't do is of not much relevance.
 
Blair said:
So it made me wonder, what type of people turn into hardcore folk? Like most of us here, we all want to improve but I'd like to talk about the EXTREMES. I think I've lost a month of my life doing a basic infront of a mirror haha

So...

How do you create these hardcore people that REALLY want to get good (I mean very good)?
Why is it that only certain people want to push themselves to limits?
Click to expand...

Good question. I'm very curious to see what people answer since I am a more laid-back dancer. As long as I can follow my partners and both they and I enjoy our dances and want to continue coming back for more, I'm happy.

My guess would be that is has to do with one's personality and what a person wants to get out of dancing. So as a spokesman for the other side, I am not someone who feels the need to be the best dancer in the room and "be all that I can be". I dance because I enjoy it and it makes me happy like nothing else. I do it for fun. To me musicality is more important than the number and complexity of moves, although if a move is well led as a follower you don't need a class to execute it.

So maybe you can answer your own question by telling why you feel the need to push yourself to the limits? What are you trying to achieve by this? What does it give you? When will you ever know if you have achieved your goal? Will you ever be satisfied with where you are?
 
Blair said:
So it made me wonder, what type of people turn into hardcore folk? Like most of us here, we all want to improve but I'd like to talk about the EXTREMES. I think I've lost a month of my life doing a basic infront of a mirror haha

So...

How do you create these hardcore people that REALLY want to get good (I mean very good)?
Click to expand...

You only have to look at the b/room side to see where real dedication is applied .

The majority who started very young ( like myself ) initially had very little normal kids activity.. we didnt have the time . And, as one began to compete , it got all consuming .

The higher level competitors put in 3/4 hrs EVERY day plus comp. travel . Amat and Profs following the same regimen .

What really mystifies me, are the Amat. who compete for multi yrs and NEVER turn Pro... now thats dedication !! .

I guess one could make a case for athletes .
 
For causes, I think people who are serious about pushing their dancing either get bored by salsa or start doing that for money. Most dancers do that for fun, and you don't need extreme skillz for that. Also salsa education system is build to earn money from people who don't improve much. They go to the class once a week, take video of combination, then forget about salsa till next week. Steady flow of income.

- "How do you create these hardcore people that REALLY want to get good (I mean very good)?"
As terence said, you should kidnap them when they are young, brainwash, isolate from society (training in weekdays, competitions on weekends), promote your value system and set delusional goals.

- "Why is it that only certain people want to push themselves to limits?"
Because for normal people there are functioning regulatory mechanisms in the brain that tend to avoid extremes. Also such mechanisms are built into society. There are very few accepted ways to push yourself to limits and still most of them are considered marginal (which they should be). Say scientist, explorer, pro athlete, fire fighter are the nice ones I came up.
 
Find people with no lives and blow their minds?! :D


Seriously though, you basically need people with no lives, if you're wanting to capture them for 5 nights a week dancing!

Culturally, I think people of Asian decent appear to have more obsessive/addictive natures. I'm not sure if that's a by product of being an immigrant (never spent time in an Asian country to compare), or maybe something more fundamental... but a higher ratio of them seem to want to be the best. I don't really know, but maybe somebody with experience in either of those areas (immigrant or Asian) might have an opinion.
 
Speaking for myself, I consider myself extremely hardcore, and what drives me is the desire to reach a dance "nirvana" like what elite dancers experience. What I mean by that is like a form of trandescension into the realms of dance that very few people get to experience. I believe that dance can produce a trance-like state when one reaches a certain level, and not only is it good for mastering control of your body and expression, but is also extremely good cognitively.

Studies have found that partner dancing (New Scientist - peer reviewed publication - forgot when I read it but was about a year ago) is actually better for reducing age related dementia than other mentally challenging activities, including golf and chess. No matter how long you've been dancing and how good you are, you're still a novice with an infinite amount more to learn and master. Oliver Pineda, Magna Gopal et al are all novices because they can also potentially learn infinitely more about the dance.

Because of all the benefits of the dance, such as improving social skills, improving memory, improving confidence, coordination, skill, musicality, musical appreciation, co-partner coordination, improving balance, body awareness (propreoception), improving fitness, body movement, happiness, emotional balance, etc, I find that it's by far the best thing I've ever done, and as a result I'm determined to discover and explore more, like an adventure of infinite rewards that never ends. That's why I'm so hardcore, and yes I think it's something that very few of us truly see in the dance.
 
I think it has more to do with the size and nature of a salsa scene than anything else. If I were to compare a salsa scene like Chicago with a salsa scene like Minneapolis/St. Paul as an example here goes. The first has around 300+ hardcore dancers, the latter at most 10 even though the respective metros are only about 3x difference (10 million vs 3 million residents) in size. The main difference: Chicago has a huge Latino community. Puerto Ricans have a Rep in the US Congress, dancing salsa at the highest level and showing it off at congresses all over the world is a national pride thing. Other folk in town don't want to be left behind and step up to keep up. MSP does not have a significant Latino community, so the driving force for dancers is to attend congresses with the discounted performer passes. So, therefore:
National Pride = give it your all, hardcore = infect other in the scene with your drive and energy.
Performer Pass Discount = do just enough to get in = and hopefully don't take yourself too seriously.
 
Jag75 said:
Speaking for myself, I consider myself extremely hardcore, and what drives me is the desire to reach a dance "nirvana" like what elite dancers experience. What I mean by that is like a form of trandescension into the realms of dance that very few people get to experience. I believe that dance can produce a trance-like state when one reaches a certain level, dance.
Click to expand...

Hm, somehow this state that you're talking about here, reminds of the experience of flow. But then reaching and experiencing flow isn't dependent on being an elite dancer, but on the balance between skills and challenge. (Since this isn't exactly related to the topic, feel free to PM me or start a new thread about this, as I'ld like to know more about what state or experience you exactly talk about and how it's related to flow).

Taking this back to the topic, I can understand that some people really enjoy dedicating themselves and their free time fully to mastering their art, this isn't true for others as well. They may have chosen a different art that they want to excel in or simply may enjoy others activities as well and therefor balance them out to reach a decent level in all of them.

Also I think there's a slightly higher risk of feeling a dissatisfaction with yourself and the level that you achieved in your art, similar to a kind of burn-out. Why? Because as you develop your own skills in this one art and try to perfect them, you'll find less people who match your skill and therefor I think that the chance of really finding flow in your dances and or enjoying them is slightly lower compared to people who aren't that much dedicated.

So, while I appreciate how people are really dedicating themselves so much to their preferred art, I think it'll be always a small minority in the majority of people enjoying an art.
 
Well, I'm pretty hard-core, going social dancing 5 night/week for a couple years now, practicing a bunch at home, going to several congresses per year. But it's not because I expect to become a great dancer or competitor.

Part of my drive has to do with being much older than the average dancers, and not wanting to be "that sleazy guy" that many scenes have. So I want to be as good as possible. The other reason is an addiction to the progressive aspect of the dance, in that I find that there's not only room for improvement, but that improvement is possible. This isn't true for me in other activities. For example, I don't think I'd ever be a good tennis player no matter how hard I tried, because I've never had good hand/eye coordination when it comes to flying objects.
 
chrisk said:
Hm, somehow this state that you're talking about here, reminds of the experience of flow. But then reaching and experience flow isn't dependent on being an elite dancer, but on the balance between skills and challenge. (Since this isn't exactly related to the topic, feel free to PM or start a new thread about this, as I'ld like to know more about what state or experience you exactly talk about and how it's related to flow).
Click to expand...

I agree about the flow aspect...when Jag75 talks of nirvana. It reminded me of the same.
 
I think what distinguishes great, hardcore dancers from others is the simple key point of reflection. Reflection is really what makes you better each time you dance; you come home after a great night and you sit there thinking, how could I have been even better? What made that so good? That danced I watched was great, let me think about what I liked. Whereas the typical person will come home and think something like this: Hmm, I'm a bit hungry after all that, that one girl was really attractive, that was fun. Most people either don't want to do that or can't do that with an objective enough eye to progress, also don't have enough knowledge to give a good critique. In essence, yes if I trained a kid from birth to dance that kid would be a great dancer, but that doesn't mean anything because what makes a person truly phenomenal, hardcore is that inner drive. I live in a scene that's hardcore into performance, many great teams, with many great performers, but are they hardcore dancers? Here on Salsa Forums, looking to add and increase not only their knowledge but the knowledge of others both visible and lurking?

Not so much, really, the call to dancing, most especially partner dancing is something that if forced, for whatever reason, isn't nearly as pleasing as it could be and I think that effect becomes apparent to both that person and the onlookers.
 
Blair said:
So it made me wonder, what type of people turn into hardcore folk? Like most of us here, we all want to improve but I'd like to talk about the EXTREMES. I think I've lost a month of my life doing a basic infront of a mirror haha

So...

How do you create these hardcore people that REALLY want to get good (I mean very good)?
Why is it that only certain people want to push themselves to limits?

I'm probably explaining it rubbish but basically you know the people. We come to classes 5 times a week, social every night that is on, self-improve at home, live and breath it. Want to be the best.
Click to expand...

Well, you tell us, mate! Yous the prodigy ;)

What is it that drives you? Are you like this with everything you do?
What's your objective..what are the things you want to get ouf this hardcore Salsa lifestyle?
When do you think you'll lean back and start living the good life, i.e. what's your definition of Making It in Salsa terms?

I think your answers will probably be shared by the small group of lads and ladettes down in London Town who take their dancing to the same extreme as you.
Certainly nice to watch people like you!

Me, I am not an extreme person. I set myself ambitious but halfway realistic goals and then work hard to reach them.
With Salsa, I pretty much knew what I wanted. And I got it.
2-3 nights a week was more than sufficient.
 
I got hugely addicted to salsa 2001 thru 2006. I would go out 4-5 times a week at the peak.

With me it was that salsa seemed to be the answer to some deep-rooted questions that I had never managed to phrase correctly. As it turned out, it was not the answer and I've since been "cured" of the obsession and now have a different relationship with dancing. Probably a healthier one for me generally.
 
Blair said:
So it made me wonder, what type of people turn into hardcore folk? Like most of us here, we all want to improve but I'd like to talk about the EXTREMES. I think I've lost a month of my life doing a basic infront of a mirror haha

So...

How do you create these hardcore people that REALLY want to get good (I mean very good)?
Why is it that only certain people want to push themselves to limits?

I'm probably explaining it rubbish but basically you know the people. We come to classes 5 times a week, social every night that is on, self-improve at home, live and breath it. Want to be the best.
Click to expand...
Some people have mentioned addiction, but I feel that what you describe is a bit different. I am a self-confessed salsaholic. I would go out every night and dance to every single song if I could (and I did when I had that sort of environment :lol:). Then I would travel to other parts of the world to congresses, just so I could dance to every song all weekend with different people. I'd dance whenever and wherever there's music on and there are people I could dance with. But - here comes the BUT - I'm definitely not the sort of hardcore person you describe. So what's the difference?

My thirst is purely for dancing. I dance because I enjoy it and love it and am addicted to it. I've worked constantly to improve simply because I enjoy being able to dance well and I feel the fun increases as I get better. I work on my following, take classes and privates and train at the gym because not being able to follow advanced leaders sucks. I've learned to lead because having to watch others dance when there aren't enough leaders sucks. My goal is to be able to dance to every song and enjoy every single dance I have. I'm a fun seeker ;)

But you mention you want to be the best. That shows your competitive nature, and I think that's the difference. You want to stand out. You want to own the whole room, be noticed. I don't mean this in a negative way. ALL top achievers - world-class footballers, olympic atheletes, chess grandmasters, championship winning dancers - have their competitive streaks, without which you just don't get the sort of drive and commitment to perfection that enables you to achieve the highest accolades. There are lots of people who are good at something and have the potential to get even better but don't get to the top of their game because they don't have that drive - but you obviously have that. So good luck, keep working at it, and I look forward to seeing you on the stage of an international congress or competition in a few years time :D
 
What is it that drives you? Are you like this with everything you do?
- Exactly what everyone has been saying, to be the best. Everything I've done, golf, snooker, football, skateboarding...all been @ national level. Then I quit?!

What's your objective..what are the things you want to get ouf this hardcore Salsa lifestyle?
- Again, I guess being the best...but thing is with salsa that is so awesome, the better my leading gets the bigger the smile on the girls face...nothing better than seeing a girl come out with this HUGE smile after doing something shes never done before. It's like this massive amazement...or the connection you get if you both interpret the music the same way, then you look at each other and be like "haha yeeeeeeee!!"

When do you think you'll lean back and start living the good life, i.e. what's your definition of Making It in Salsa terms?
- I guess UK champ man...

...and everything you say Yuno sums me up.

So I can't create someone like this, they have to have it in them?
 
Blair said:
So I can't create someone like this, they have to have it in them?
Click to expand...

Approach the other way round. Go to the playground and find a kid who's showing the right sort of character traits, then get them hooked on salsa.
 
Blair, some types are jsut wired that way, I think i am as well, maybe it comes from playing sports, i dunno, there are people who just do stuff and want to do de minimis to get to a point where they feel they are proficient(not necessarily the same as actually being proficient) and then there are those who push and cajole and go above and beyond to get to a point of excellence, that journey involves being really honest with yourself and being critical about where you need to improve etc. Not everyone is willing or able to ask themselves those questions and/or live with and do what it takes to address the answers. Thats why prodigies dont drop off trees....
 
Blair said:
So I can't create someone like this, they have to have it in them?
Click to expand...

Yes, to a certain extent you are born with it.
I believe that even more now that I have had kids myself.

Are you looking for like-minded Salsa fanatics for your team? ;)

It's not easy finding them..hence the term 'War for Talent' in the business/finance/consulting world.
 
MacMoto said:
Blair said:
So I can't create someone like this, they have to have it in them?
Click to expand...
Approach the other way round. Go to the playground and find a kid who's showing the right sort of character traits, then get them hooked on salsa.
Click to expand...

It's done all the time in the sports arena. It doesn't even need to be a child.

We take (used to take) teenagers (14-19) with little or no experience of volleyball and turn them into International/Pro level players within 2-3 years.

You just need to identify the correct traits required. These might be physical (we needed tall, 6'5" and above but also physically strong) but also mental. Fast tracking requires a very focussed, strong mind.

A background in the fast track pursuit or similar isn't always an advantage and is often a hinderence since the person being fast tracked comes with baggage that might not either be correct or suitable for the level of performance they need to achieve.
Example if we take a teenager who's been playing with his school team and within his peer group he's been spanking the ball good and proper.
The power international players generate is a whole other ball game and his techniques is probably not correct but is ok for the level he's currently playing at. It's a big come down for most of these "junior stars" to relearn their technique and start hitting like a novice again, many can't/wont do it.

Same with dancing. If it's a person you're going to fast track is a "traffic cop" dancer i.e. he stands in the middle of the slot and directs the follower without moving his feet. When he has to learn to move quickly and efficiently he may well struggle and while he is learning his performance level will drop. He may well not want to accept this "I've always managed before" attitude. Well yes he has but to move to the next level he needs to learn footwork!

To fast track a dancer what traits would you look for? What background kowledge/skills etc.?

There's a question for you.:D
 
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