COVID-19 affected Congresses 2020 tracker

[Up in the Air]

The Chicago Salsa & Bachata Festival was just canceled/postponed as per their FB page.

Yeah - and they're shady as f**k in dealing with it:

1. Look how they try to spin it. It's *canceled* - not "postponed"! Why can't they just be honest?

2. And look at their refund policy:

"If you purchased a party, full or performer pass, you will receive credit for the same pass for 2021.
All VIP or CAMP passes will be refunded.
If you purchased a Performer Pass, but can not perform in 2021, we will honor it as a FULL PASS."

Are you kidding me? Who knows their sched for 2021? Why do VIPs get refunds - and other passes get credits? Total cash grab.

3. And the icing on the cake? They're still selling tickets on Eventbrite - and the website hasn't been updated. Hope everyone is diligently bird-dogging their FB.

F**k you, Touch Events.

 

[anonymous987]

Are you kidding me? Who knows their sched for 2021? Why do VIPs get refunds - and other passes get credits? Total cash grab.

This is an interesting point. Let's say 2021 arrives, and they decide to put on a scaled down version of their congress compared to what they would have done previously. So basically with fewer artists, possibly less well known, and perhaps even a change to a cheaper venue. One reason for doing this might be, that they would be able to stretch the money they have already taken from dancers, to cover both their losses from 2020 and the cost of putting on an event in 2021. Right now their only commitment is to have something running in 2021. That could be anything. The effect on dancers is that somebody who paid for a ticket in 2020 and has had it rolled over to 2021, is now over paying for an event that is significantly worth less in value. It's a dirty tactic, but one I would not bet against any promotor from trying.

 

[Smiley79]

This is an interesting point. Let's say 2021 arrives, and they decide to put on a scaled down version of their congress compared to what they would have done previously. So basically with fewer artists, possibly less well known, and perhaps even a change to a cheaper venue. One reason for doing this might be, that they would be able to stretch the money they have already taken from dancers, to cover both their losses from 2020 and the cost of putting on an event in 2021. Right now their only commitment is to have something running in 2021. That could be anything. The effect on dancers is that somebody who paid for a ticket in 2020 and has had it rolled over to 2021, is now over paying for an event that is significantly worth less in value. It's a dirty tactic, but one I would not bet against any promotor from trying.

Depends on if they advertised who the DJ/artist, etc were; would be closer to bait n switch but this "extenuating circumstance clause" would still be used. This is where I'm glad I only attend local event and the professional conferences I attend are less than 100 people. I can't imaging how pist people are who shelled out thousands to travel, hotel etc must be feeling.

 

[Offbeat]

This is an interesting point. Let's say 2021 arrives, and they decide to put on a scaled down version of their congress compared to what they would have done previously. So basically with fewer artists, possibly less well known, and perhaps even a change to a cheaper venue. One reason for doing this might be, that they would be able to stretch the money they have already taken from dancers, to cover both their losses from 2020 and the cost of putting on an event in 2021. Right now their only commitment is to have something running in 2021. That could be anything. The effect on dancers is that somebody who paid for a ticket in 2020 and has had it rolled over to 2021, is now over paying for an event that is significantly worth less in value. It's a dirty tactic, but one I would not bet against any promotor from trying.

No idea who this promoter is nor have sympathy for them.

However if a generic promoter has gone broke how do you expect them to either refund or have money to put up an event of the same level/quality.

For generic promoters whose events are months away there is way to cushion the financial shock but not for those whose events are few weeks away. That is if they run these events on thin margins. For some organizers it is not about money but simply passion and labour of love. They operate on break even basis.


In most USA cities, on a sliding scale the promoters are personally liable if they failed to meet contractual bulk room booking commitments. Those financial liabilities can be huge once the commitments fail to hit certain percentage of the target (say 60% or 75%).

My take is that it is not realistic to expect most of the promoters who have a little financial acumen for a good budget management, to have cash available at hand for refunds. Only a few are business savvy. Or you be like the Warsaw promoter who probably has very far margins.

 

[anonymous987]

However if a generic promoter has gone broke how do you expect them to either refund or have money to put up an event of the same level/quality.

Can you point to where myself, or the comment I replied to, talks about a situation where a promoter is broke? Because I can't see it anywhere.

My comment was specifically on the point that was made on how this promoter is offering credits to next years Congress. Let's just make one thing clear here, if a promoter states that dancers who bought tickets will have their pass rolled over to next year, then the expectation from a dancer's point of view ,is that they are now getting what they paid for, albeit next year. If a promoter is uncertain that they can deliver on that promise (for whatever reason), then they should make that clear. Particularly when that is all they are offering.

It is not for dancers who paid money for something specific, to automatically deduce that they are probably getting something else, and then be okay with that. Equally, if a promoter has gone "broke" as a result of this, then the onus is on the promoter to make this clear with an issue of bankruptcy or similar communication as proof. It is not for them to just say "hey your ticket is being rolled over for next year". If you are bankrupt, then you're bankrupt. Say it, and deal with whatever response you get from your customers. There is sympathy and support to be had here, but not if you are not being honest. But again, bankruptcy is not what was being talked about in this original comment chain.

I am baffled by why you are taking umbrage at any comment that looks at the situation from the point of view of dancers who have paid for events. By all means go ahead and defend every single action by these promoters. But think about it for one second. You have just described "most" promoters as having "little financial acumen" in which they are unable to maintain "good budget management" and are for the most part "not business savvy". These are your words! If that is true, then don't you think it is appropriate on some level to actually question their subsequent actions in light of these cancellations? Why do you feel it is wrong for the original poster of this comment chain to feel aggrieved by the situation?

To add to this further, the response from promoters to these cancellations has not all been the same. They are not all mostly inept like you suggest. Go read the response that the Cypress Salsa Congress posted in light of their cancellation (it is on the other thread). Cypress salsa congress, has set the gold standard in terms of how you handle this process and retain the support of your dancers. They make all options available. But they also mention what it would mean to them, if dancer's simply accept the rollover. This is how you cancel a congress. In light of all these options, I would not be surprised if dancer's opt for whatever option best supports the promoters on this occasion. When you see this happening for other events, don't you think it is then appropriate to call out the actions of other promoters whose response falls short of this high standard?

 

[Offbeat]

My comment was specifically on the point that was made on how this promoter is offering credits to next years Congress. Let's just make one thing clear here, if a promoter states that dancers who bought tickets will have their pass rolled over to next year, then the expectation from a dancer's point of view ,is that they are now getting what they paid for, albeit next year. If a promoter is uncertain that they can deliver on that promise (for whatever reason), then they should make that clear. Particularly when that is all they are offering.

I agree that the promoter should be fully transparent and upfront as well as communicate regularly when things like these happens. About the next year I doubt if they themselves know what position will they be in and how much of promise they can fulfill.

It is not for dancers who paid money for something specific, to automatically deduce that they are probably getting something else, and then be okay with that. Equally, if a promoter has gone "broke" as a result of this, then the onus is on the promoter to make this clear with an issue of bankruptcy or similar communication as proof. It is not for them to just say "hey your ticket is being rolled over for next year". If you are bankrupt, then you're bankrupt. Say it, and deal with whatever response you get from your customers. There is sympathy and support to be had here, but not if you are not being honest. But again, bankruptcy is not what was being talked about in this original comment chain.

My point was that you can't expect sophisticated thoughtout communication response from the individual promoters, like a large corporation would do. The large corporations when faced with crisis as well have known to fail big time in their first responses.

Besides we don't know what liabilities behind the scenes is motivating which behavior.

I am baffled by why you are taking umbrage at any comment that looks at the situation from the point of view of dancers who have paid for events.

I am not taking umbrage. I am saying that it is too high of expectations to have from amateurish promoters and expect them to think with 'customer empathy'. They hardly do it in normal times. These are not normal times. If people have attended a few congresses we know how much mess the organization of them is.

By all means go ahead and defend every single action by these promoters. But think about it for one second. You have just described "most" promoters as having "little financial acumen" in which they are unable to maintain "good budget management" and are for the most part "not business savvy". These are your words! If that is true, then don't you think it is appropriate on some level to actually question their subsequent actions in light of these cancellations? Why do you feel it is wrong for the original poster of this comment chain to feel aggrieved by the situation?

It is not defending anyone. It is about seeing both sides of equation and what could be 'motivating factor' for these promoters to behave the way they do. Short of being sociopaths (in which case they will have zero empathy for their customers), their incentives (and disincentives) will color their response and behavior. That is all. Should they do the best by their patrons? Absolutely yes. Are they doing the best they can? We don't know. Is transfering to the next event the best they can do instead of refund? Again we don't know, but anyone who has run any event (not talking about salsa or dancing) will acknowledge that it is a reasonable accommodation. Throwing in some sweetners will lead to some goodwill. But I have seen enough people who are incapable of making that kind of no-brainer decisions.

To add to this further, the response from promoters to these cancellations has not all been the same. They are not all mostly inept like you suggest. Go read the response that the Cypress Salsa Congress posted in light of their cancellation (it is on the other thread). Cypress salsa congress, has set the gold standard in terms of how you handle this process and retain the support of your dancers. They make all options available. But they also mention what it would mean to them, if dancer's simply accept the rollover. This is how you cancel a congress. In light of all these options, I would not be surprised if dancer's opt for whatever option best supports the promoters on this occasion.

Public memory is short. I disagree that two years from now dancers would penalize one set of organizers and reward another.

I am not at all surprised by a spectrum of responses and communications from different promoters. Not should anyone be.

When you see this happening for other events, don't you think it is then appropriate to call out the actions of other promoters whose response falls short of this high standard?

Yes it is appropriate to call out.

However people should also temper their expectations from Congress promoters. Precisely because they are not the best managers. When I am putting down my money, I know realistically what to expect.

 

[mambocowboy]

Olympics is further off to make a decision today. What do you want organizers to do? Cancel it now?

There is always a possibility that it might get canceled. Hasn’t been ruled out yet. Last I heard on the Olympic situation it was “watch and wait” but possibility that it will be canceled has not being ruled out. There is enough time to take that decision.

By most accounts the infection is suppose to peak by May/June and then start to recede.

It may happen that by time of Olympics some new region or country is peaking. E.g Africa which so far has been spared the brunt. If virus is in retreat globally, by time of Olympics then heighten precautions will still be in place. But I don’t see a reason for it to take place.

Not proven but there is a theory (among experts) that humid hot summer months is when virus spread gets inhibited. Tokyo gets pretty hot and humid. When the games were awarde, its timing was a concern for that reason.

Listening to epidemiologists, there is no evidence warmer weather will slow Corona...

 

[mambocowboy]

I agree that the promoter should be fully transparent and upfront as well as communicate regularly when things like these happens. About the next year I doubt if they themselves know what position will they be in and how much of promise they can fulfill.




My point was that you can't expect sophisticated thoughtout communication response from the individual promoters, like a large corporation would do. The large corporations when faced with crisis as well have known to fail big time in their first responses.

Besides we don't know what liabilities behind the scenes is motivating which behavior.



I am not taking umbrage. I am saying that it is too high of expectations to have from amateurish promoters and expect them to think with 'customer empathy'. They hardly do it in normal times. These are not normal times. If people have attended a few congresses we know how much mess the organization of them is.



It is not defending anyone. It is about seeing both sides of equation and what could be 'motivating factor' for these promoters to behave the way they do. Short of being sociopaths (in which case they will have zero empathy for their customers), their incentives (and disincentives) will color their response and behavior. That is all. Should they do the best by their patrons? Absolutely yes. Are they doing the best they can? We don't know. Is transfering to the next event the best they can do instead of refund? Again we don't know, but anyone who has run any event (not talking about salsa or dancing) will acknowledge that it is a reasonable accommodation. Throwing in some sweetners will lead to some goodwill. But I have seen enough people who are incapable of making that kind of no-brainer decisions.



Public memory is short. I disagree that two years from now dancers would penalize one set of organizers and reward another.

I am not at all surprised by a spectrum of responses and communications from different promoters. Not should anyone be.



Yes it is appropriate to call out.

However people should also temper their expectations from Congress promoters. Precisely because they are not the best managers. When I am putting down my money, I know realistically what to expect.

The salsa scene has such a short memory and high turnover. A year from now few will know/remember which promoters acted responsibly vs irresponsibly....

 

[Offbeat]

Listening to epidemiologists, there is no evidence warmer weather will slow Corona...

Hence I said there is a theory, which is not proven It is too early in the cycle to have either corraborating evidence or non-corraborating evidence. The theory was around before Trump amplified it to his own advantage.

I think you meant virologists. Epidemiologists are not experts on viruses and hence any info they give out will based on what scientists who are studying the coronavirus ultimately say as well as what is the actual infection transmission rate in warmer weathers that Epidemiologists tabulate.

Here are few top results from simple google search:

Will warmer weather slow the spread of coronavirus?

Experts say sunlight and heat limit growth and longevity of virus, but observing proper hygiene is more effective.

www.aljazeera.com

Will warming spring temperatures slow the coronavirus outbreak?

Flu season generally subsides in April and March, but will the coronavirus go with it? Past coronavirus outbreaks can offer clues.

www.nationalgeographic.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/03/11/coronavirus-may-have-seasonal-cycle-that-doesnt-mean-it-will-go-away-this-summer-experts-warn/

Does Warm Weather Curb Coronavirus? What Experts Say: QuickTake

In temperate climates, seasonal flu tends to flare in winter and recede as spring arrives. That gave rise to hopes by some that the arrival of warmer weather in the northern hemisphere would keep Covid-19, also transmitted by droplets expelled from the nose and mouth, in check there. The...

www.bloomberg.com

Why Experts Doubt Warm Weather Will Slow Coronavirus Spread

“The heat, generally speaking, kills this kind of virus,” Trump has said. Epidemiologists aren’t inclined to agree.

nymag.com

What Temperature Kills Coronavirus (COVID-19)?

SARS-CoV-2, the new coronavirus that causes COVID-19, is sensitive to high temperatures. Research shows it can be killed when exposed to high temperature for at least 3 minutes.

www.healthline.com

It is interesting to note that the headlines from all newspaper poses it as a question and leads reader to believe that might be the case. However when you read the body of the news articles most experts are skeptical that summer will slow down the pandemic.

 

[mambocowboy]

Hence I said there is a theory, which is not proven It is too early in the cycle to have either corraborating evidence or non-corraborating evidence. The theory was around before Trump amplified it to his own advantage.

I think you meant virologists. Epidemiologists are not experts on viruses and hence any info they give out will based on what scientists who are studying the coronavirus ultimately say as well as what is the actual infection transmission rate in warmer weathers that Epidemiologists tabulate.

Here are few top results from simple google search:

Will warmer weather slow the spread of coronavirus?

Experts say sunlight and heat limit growth and longevity of virus, but observing proper hygiene is more effective.

www.aljazeera.com

Will warming spring temperatures slow the coronavirus outbreak?

Flu season generally subsides in April and March, but will the coronavirus go with it? Past coronavirus outbreaks can offer clues.

www.nationalgeographic.com

https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2020/03/11/coronavirus-may-have-seasonal-cycle-that-doesnt-mean-it-will-go-away-this-summer-experts-warn/

Does Warm Weather Curb Coronavirus? What Experts Say: QuickTake

In temperate climates, seasonal flu tends to flare in winter and recede as spring arrives. That gave rise to hopes by some that the arrival of warmer weather in the northern hemisphere would keep Covid-19, also transmitted by droplets expelled from the nose and mouth, in check there. The...

www.bloomberg.com

Why Experts Doubt Warm Weather Will Slow Coronavirus Spread

“The heat, generally speaking, kills this kind of virus,” Trump has said. Epidemiologists aren’t inclined to agree.

nymag.com

What Temperature Kills Coronavirus (COVID-19)?

SARS-CoV-2, the new coronavirus that causes COVID-19, is sensitive to high temperatures. Research shows it can be killed when exposed to high temperature for at least 3 minutes.

www.healthline.com

It is interesting to note that the headlines from all newspaper poses it as a question and leads reader to believe that might be the case. However when you read the body of the news articles most experts are skeptical that summer will slow down the pandemic.

You like to be right and have the last word, don't you? On this topic, I'll let you do that.

 

[Chris_Yannick]

The effect on dancers is that somebody who paid for a ticket in 2020 and has had it rolled over to 2021, is now over paying for an event that is significantly worth less in value. It's a dirty tactic, but one I would not bet against any promotor from trying.

Another thing that would cross my mind If I had paid for an event this year which was canceled, is my availability for the next edition.

I paid for an event that I knew I would be attending. I have no idea if I will be able to attend the event next year. I am the type who never pays one year ahead for festivals, so the best course of action for me would be to ask for a refund.

No amount of pleading to help support organizers will change that. I paid for an event, it did not happen, and I do not want to carry it over to next year because of my availability. I don't blame anyone for this mess, but this is precisely the reason why I don't purchase festival passes in advance.

 

[crzyld]

No amount of pleading to help support organizers will change that. I paid for an event, it did not happen, and I do not want to carry it over to next year because of my availability. I don't blame anyone for this mess, but this is precisely the reason why I don't purchase festival passes in advance.

If you bought a ticket where the small print says "no refunds" instead of "no refunds except for cancellation" then the promoter is actually quite generous to offer a roll over to next year. IANAL and the specifics are of course dependent on the laws of the country the event was supposed to be held.

 

[crzyld]

What I find interesting is the UK approach. All other countries so far try to go the Wuhan route. In the UK they don't think they can stop this and want to move the peak to the summer months because then they have more health care capacity.
I don't know their computer models and they may or may not be right. But if they stick to it while all the others countries try the other way then nobody from the UK will be able to travel anywhere until next winter (maybe with 14 days quarantine or with an official document stating they already had it and are immune).
If the other countries are right the worst could be over in summer. If they are wrong they will go the same way as UK just worse because they started extreme measures earlier.
This means anyone from UK can already cancel Rovinj. It may be that there will not be any socials in the UK until winter.
From how it looks here, I would say eastern Europe has a much bigger chance to stop this until summer. So everyone from western Europe can probably cancel Rovinj. If Rovinj happens at all it will probably be a small eastern European congress.

 

[1derpalm]

Listening to epidemiologists, there is no evidence warmer weather will slow Corona...

In one of the western provinces in my country, the earliest cases were travelling from Egypt, so I think Africa has more than we think.

 

[Smejmoon]

From how it looks here, I would say eastern Europe has a much bigger chance to stop this until summer. So everyone from western Europe can probably cancel Rovinj. If Rovinj happens at all it will probably be a small eastern European congress.

Rovinj is just across the bay from Italy. I don't know what you mean by Eastern Europe, but Scandinavia/Baltics might get over this easier because of lower population density. What other reasons you have in mind?

 

[crzyld]

Rovinj is just across the bay from Italy. I don't know what you mean by Eastern Europe, but Scandinavia/Baltics might get over this easier because of lower population density. What other reasons you have in mind?

Scandinavia is getting hammered. Norway and Switzerland are trading places for 2nd and 3rd worst rates per capita. Denmark is not far behind.
The virus by itself is not traveling over any bay, Slovenia and Croatia have stopped travel from Italy. If you look at numbers per capita eastern Europe is way lower than western Europe and Scandinavia. And the travel restrictions have also started way earlier in the progression of case numbers. If it stopped soon enough, well nobody can tell. Also there are way less goods traveling through eastern than western Europe and many countries in the west still are only closing the borders for normal travelers but not for goods or commuters.

 

[Smejmoon]

Ok, makes sense, but goods still can cross borders in Baltics. Also people who are returning home can do so. And it seems if you don't have signs of infection you can still travel across some borders. But not by public transportation.

I've only read of Poland closing borders. It's one of the biggest European countries of course, so impact is big.


Interesting case is Belarus. They still have salsa parties and open borders. (Open if don't need visa or have it.)

Riga International Airport will actually have some extra flights now, but the idea is to get people home.

 

[Mr Setenta]

What date would be the earliest for a European Congress NOT to be affected by the virus?

 

[Offbeat]

What date would be the earliest for a European Congress NOT to be affected by the virus?

If we go by China trajectory, USA should plateau by late April. Europe will differ by region but similar, with regions starting earlier. Most interesting is to see when Italian daily infection/death rates start slowing down and dropping.

If the May is all about down ramp, then June end is earliest for things to start getting back on track. So I guess Rovinj perhaps will be the first, but if they go ahead, there would have to be a lot of precautions in place. That is most optimistic scenario less a miracle.

 

[calichris10]

If we go by China trajectory, USA should plateau by late April. Europe will differ by region but similar, with regions starting earlier. Most interesting is to see when Italian daily infection/death rates start slowing down and dropping.

If the May is all about down ramp, then June end is earliest for things to start getting back on track. So I guess Rovinj perhaps will be the first, but if they go ahead, there would have to be a lot of precautions in place. That is most optimistic scenario less a miracle.

Yeah but China was way, I mean way more on top of testing and isolation. We are failing at both here in the US.