Connection strength negotiation

P

premier

Son Montuno
I've been pondering this for a while.

The most frustrating situation on the dance floor is a "light" or limp follower who doesn't get the leads, because she's not giving the sufficient pressure to my frame for the signals to get through. The second most frustrating situation is the opposite of this, where a follower expects me to do all the work and move her bodyweight around.

For me the optimal situation is where a follower gives me the right amount of pressure so we have the feeling of being connected, but she's fast to react to my leads (because we have the connection) and moves her own body weight, which makes her feel light.

Is there something the leader can do to suggest this kind of connection to the follower? Not too much so it doesn't become heavy, but not too light either so we maintain the feeling of being connected. Is there something the leader can do to make the follower give more pressure to the frame other than verbally ask for it? What kind kind of thought process the followers go through when deciding how much pressure they're going to give to each lead? If the follower isn't giving enough pressure, is the leader doing something wrong? Or is it set amount of pressure always?
 
I'm interested in this aswell.

What I usually do when I have a very light follower, but is probably wrong, is to increase the distance a bit between us (holding my frame the same) which creates a bit more tension between us.
 
As people will always say it is *clarity* of lead over strength of connection that gets things achieved the most efficiently. Its very difficult to get a follower to switch up their connection, you can switch up your moves so that you generate more or less momentum which might help influence the connection your aiming for. I guess I would really suggest doing your best to be malleable and see it as a way to increase your leading ability under varying circumstances rather than frustrate yourself with what you cannot change [easily].

i will add a light (not limp) follower is giving you that level of connection because that is probably all she requires to react, trying to get to a stage where she is giving you the level of connection that comforts you may feel very overkill, and more difficult to react to, for her (ie you would probably find she would be constantly overturning etc).
 
This is really interesting for me, because I just started leading, and I have to say it is eye-opening.

My opinion is that connection and frame is on of the thing that most needs to be taught to followers (at all levels) that currently is not covered enough in classes.

There is no quick way to tell followers how to "get" this, imo. I mostly learnt this in private classes, and even then, it takes a lot of time...I spent one hour just on connection hand-to-hand standing still, and at least another couple of hours on connection in the basic alone, maybe 2 hours on the connection in wraps, at least 5 hours on connection in 360s (I still cannot get this 100% correct it is super frustrating!), and my connection still wasn't perfect at the end of those sessions, let alone still great on the dance-floor....how many followers do you think will invest the energy and time to work on these things in this much detail...and by the way, if I had the money I would happily repeat all this again multiple times.

Stuff I remember guys doing to me: 'wave' arms to loosen up stiffness, push down on a hand to indicate they want more downward force, push wrist down gently (too many beginner followers have their wrists pointing at the ceiling) to improve connection...some advanced leads tend to lead some kind of hand-to-hand check ie in a cbl early on in the dance to test the connection.

So far, when leading limp followers, I switch to leading stuff out of closed position (but I don't have very many 'moves' anyway, so this doesn't really cut down my options much yet, lol, though I can see this would be frustrating). Adding a lead on the body seems to help if the hand-to-hand connection is limp. Also leading just with "pull" style hand grip ie two fingers down (rather than offering a "cup"/sidehook) means you can use changes in distance to create momentum and because your hand is "on top" the followers hand/arm cannot float away to the ceiling. I'm guessing you already do these things though :)

How does a follower decide how much "pressure" to give?
I have my baseline normal which I offer by default, but then I adjust depending on what the guy is offering...often followers are told to 'give back what you get' - so, with an advanced follower you should be able to ask for more or less by adjusting what you offer. If a guy has a strong fixed frame and fast connection, I will try and adjust, ditto if he is more elastic and slower....and of course, many leader vary the connection for different moves. Generally if you offer a 'stiffer' hand/hook and a firmer frame/arm I will mirror it.
 
londongirl said:
Stuff I remember guys doing to me: 'wave' arms to loosen up stiffness,
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I've found this works temporarily about half the time, half the time the follow has no idea what I'm trying to do. While we're on the the subject of arm waving, let me say something to the leads: stop it with the double dutch arms alread! It doesn't "look cool" and will most likely just annoy the follow (at least it does me when I follow). Rant over.

londongirl said:
How does a follower decide how much "pressure" to give?
I have my baseline normal which I offer by default, but then I adjust depending on what the guy is offering...often followers are told to 'give back what you get' - so, with an advanced follower you should be able to ask for more or less by adjusting what you offer. If a guy has a strong fixed frame and fast connection, I will try and adjust, ditto if he is more elastic and slower....and of course, many leader vary the connection for different moves. Generally if you offer a 'stiffer' hand/hook and a firmer frame/arm I will mirror it.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... how often does this is actually get covered in class? I'm a fairly light lead and I very rarely get any accommodation in terms of tension(e.g. follows that start out with Arms of Steel remain that way the entire dance). Also, when I follow I tend to vary my frame quite a bit according to what's being led, I don't see that very much, is that being covered much in classes?
 
In salsa classes I attended it was never covered. On the other side, in competitive b/r latin classes there was considerable amount of coverage of it, but however, there is usually much more tension in arms than in salsa (or social b/r), partially to bring more dynamic into dance, partially as a styling ... however there were also big differences among trainers

In terms of accommodation, I believe my followers accommodate to me to certain amount, but range of energy used in connection that they seem to be most comfortable with is at least 1:20 and probably more (lightest : strongest follower) so usually it seems that I'm the one to accommodate mostly. I'm fine with that, usually starting lightly with all followers (even well known) and then dancing several simple moves (like CBL, backspot turn etc) to negotiate a level of energy in our connection, depending also on song, how tired we are etc. For me, an amount of 'pressure' (force) in the frame is quite unimportant - light followers will get enough information through very light connection, while energetic followers like more force to dance. It's like skiing with a pair of very light and responsive skis vs. skiing with a pair of competitive skis - the latter need much more force, but both pair of skiis can be good. What isn't good is dancing with a follower that has spaghetti arms or stiff arms / body (where I can also imagine some examples from skiing)

Could these things be learned at classes? Yes, they could, but some things are hard to change. Feeling that a person is giving through her/his arms depends on his/her posture, weight, masculinity and also their character, so when I see the person walking, I can estimate how the connection when dancing with her will look like in most cases. However, classes can't change these things, so for me it's pretty much the same feeling dancing with the same person when she is a beginner or several years later when she is an advanced dancer. If I'm enjoying it, I'm usually enjoying already when she is a beginner (however they never believe me), if not, it's usually not much different several years later with the same person. There were some exceptions, but quite rare.
 
Salsa Student said:
While we're on the the subject of arm waving, let me say something to the leads: stop it with the double dutch arms alread! It doesn't "look cool" and will most likely just annoy the follow (at least it does me when I follow). Rant over.
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+1000 :)
But ditto to followers...writhing around thinking you are being sexy is i) not, and ii) makes you hard to lead as your arms and body go all over the place.

Salsa Student said:
Hmmm... how often does this is actually get covered in class? I'm a fairly light lead and I very rarely get any accommodation in terms of tension(e.g. follows that start out with Arms of Steel remain that way the entire dance). Also, when I follow I tend to vary my frame quite a bit according to what's being led, I don't see that very much, is that being covered much in classes?
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Almost never as far as I can see.
I would love 5 minutes in every class, at every level, reminding people of the correct hand hold, wrist position, need to not writhe around or wave arms around randomly, for followers to keep doing the basic unless otherwise, and to only follow what is led...and in the main moves or new moves taught, what the key adjustments in frame or arm tension are required by both lead and follower. Or, if the class in smaller than 10 couples, at the start the teachers (assuming they understand the concept) should go round and do a basic with everyone and offer one suggest for how to improve the connection/frame.
 
My instructor told me to try going lighter when I have a follower with loose arms. Kind of like talking more softly to get someones attention. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes not.

Salsa Student, I laughed out loud when I read your comment about Double Dutch. I've run across a few followers that insist upon trying to lead me into this Double Dutch thing. It drives me crazy.I think I've ranted about this myself from time to time.
 
vit said:
Could these things be learned at classes? Yes, they could, but some things are hard to change. ... However, classes can't change these things, so for me it's pretty much the same feeling dancing with the same person when she is a beginner or several years later when she is an advanced dancer. If I'm enjoying it, I'm usually enjoying already when she is a beginner (however they never believe me), if not, it's usually not much different several years later with the same person. There were some exceptions, but quite rare.
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I think it is possible to change. I know I was stiff and very heavy when I started, and I also know I went too far into limp spaghetti territory once I realised. And I know even in an hour of a private class today I can make improvements and changes that some leaders will notice in the social dancing that same evening (lol at whether I can actively maintain those all those adjustments).

One question regarding connection/frame....I am curious as to how many followers think they can actually follow someone leading a basic step (let's assume the leader is actually offering an excellent connection and frame)...
...let's say the exercise is: hand-to-hand hold (shouldn't make a different if it is single or double hand hold), follower has eyes closed, leader will vary step length ie some small steps, some longer but nothing crazy long ie no slides, just noticeable differences in step length, time between steps/speed ie could be slow, quick, really slow or quick, quick, really slow etc, adding pauses in, changing direction, or change number of steps taken forward or back, ie could be 4 forward and 2 back.
I've done this exercise multiple times in one of the classes I used to take. I've done it as a follower and leader. And the results are amusing and surprising.
 
londongirl said:
I think it is possible to change. I know I was stiff and very heavy when I started, and I also know I went too far into limp spaghetti territory once I realised. And I know even in an hour of a private class today I can make improvements and changes that some leaders will notice in the social dancing that same evening (lol at whether I can actively maintain those all those adjustments).

One question regarding connection/frame....I am curious as to how many followers think they can actually follow someone leading a basic step (let's assume the leader is actually offering an excellent connection and frame)...
...let's say the exercise is: hand-to-hand hold (shouldn't make a different if it is single or double hand hold), follower has eyes closed, leader will vary step length ie some small steps, some longer but nothing crazy long ie no slides, just noticeable differences in step length, time between steps/speed ie could be slow, quick, really slow or quick, quick, really slow etc, adding pauses in, changing direction, or change number of steps taken forward or back, ie could be 4 forward and 2 back.
I've done this exercise multiple times in one of the classes I used to take. I've done it as a follower and leader. And the results are amusing and surprising.
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Sound like a great exercise...I have to try it sometime...Love your sig btw....
 
premier said:
I've been pondering this for a while.

The most frustrating situation on the dance floor is a "light" or limp follower who doesn't get the leads, because she's not giving the sufficient pressure to my frame for the signals to get through. The second most frustrating situation is the opposite of this, where a follower expects me to do all the work and move her bodyweight around.

For me the optimal situation is where a follower gives me the right amount of pressure so we have the feeling of being connected, but she's fast to react to my leads (because we have the connection) and moves her own body weight, which makes her feel light.

Is there something the leader can do to suggest this kind of connection to the follower? Not too much so it doesn't become heavy, but not too light either so we maintain the feeling of being connected. Is there something the leader can do to make the follower give more pressure to the frame other than verbally ask for it? What kind kind of thought process the followers go through when deciding how much pressure they're going to give to each lead? If the follower isn't giving enough pressure, is the leader doing something wrong? Or is it set amount of pressure always?
Click to expand...


YOU can suggest whatever you want, but i think there is a clear dilenation between light and limp followers...Light followers to me can and will follow clear leads and even unclear leads their lightness isnt a reflection ono their following ability...Connection can indeed be had with a "light" follower". Now it seems that your physical requirements are what should be addressed since it seems that you need the physical connection to reinforce your stuff and if you dont get that you dont feel comfortable....For me connection inst dependent on physical forece being transmitted back to me. So i'd suggest you figure out why thats such a important component for you....
 
thepresenceon2 said:
Sound like a great exercise...I have to try it sometime...Love your sig btw....
Click to expand...

I forgot to say, in the exercise, have to maintain the same distance between the leader and follower, ie move essentially at same time.

lol, if you love the signature, did you see the whole song that I, er, salsafied for a competition :)
 
londongirl said:
I forgot to say, in the exercise, have to maintain the same distance between the leader and follower, ie move essentially at same time.

lol, if you love the signature, did you see the whole song that I, er, salsafied for a competition :)
Click to expand...

no i did not, please share.....
 
thepresenceon2 said:
YOU can suggest whatever you want, but i think there is a clear dilenation between light and limp followers...Light followers to me can and will follow clear leads and even unclear leads their lightness isnt a reflection ono their following ability...Connection can indeed be had with a "light" follower". Now it seems that your physical requirements are what should be addressed since it seems that you need the physical connection to reinforce your stuff and if you dont get that you dont feel comfortable....For me connection inst dependent on physical forece being transmitted back to me. So i'd suggest you figure out why thats such a important component for you....
Click to expand...

I have absolutely nothing against truly light followers. I said "light" with quotation marks to indicate that they just think they're being light, when in fact their limp and actually giving me more pressure would have helped them :)

Lightness of the follower doesn't come from light connection. It comes from responding to the lead quickly and moving her own body weight to the direction of the lead and having solid timing. What I was getting at was that having a good frame and sufficient pressure in the connection makes it easier for both parties. Especially if either party lacks in skill of leading or following.

But if she gets the leads with very light frame and connection, I'm not going to complain, because I like to lead light too.

I consider myself a light lead too and I have solid timing and technique. It's a work in progress and at times I might be too light. That might be part of the problem in some cases.
 
Salsa Student said:
While we're on the the subject of arm waving, let me say something to the leads: stop it with the double dutch arms alread! It doesn't "look cool" and will most likely just annoy the follow (at least it does me when I follow). Rant over.
Click to expand...

I have a question, what are double-dutch arms ? I have no idea if I do it..
 
BMW said:
I have a question, what are double-dutch arms ? I have no idea if I do it..
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A poor emulation of Cuban motion.. think wind-screen wiper arms.. wax on/wax off. LOL.
If you've seen basic Colombian Salsa that's what they're aiming for but the arms are just terribly out of time with the body.
 
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