Clave Cross in My Favorite Things (La 33)?

N

NeddieSeagoon

Changui
Hi All,

I've been transcribing My Favorite Things, by La 33, on the album Gozalo, and I came across what I think must be a mistake that got by them somehow.

It starts in 2=3, and they have a 9-bar phrase just before the 6/8 section (1:14), so the 6/8 section can be in 3=2 direction, but then it sounds like the (sax) solo section after this (1:22) is back in 2=3, even though the 6/8 section is an even number (8) of bars.
Am I going crazy? Is there a convention that I haven't heard about where when you change genres during a song you can ignore the clave?

Please help!

Thanks.
 
BullitproofSoul said:
maybe a link?

funny, I'm still learning "my favorite things on piano, and had a breakthrough on that song this past week
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I'd have posted a link, but it didn't let me due to my newness, apparently. It's on grooveshark and youtube.

I'd be happy to share the piano chart I've transcribed if you like! It's not a literal transcription note-for-note, but it has some montunos and changes with rhythm. PM me if you're interested.
 
NeddieSeagoon said:
Am I going crazy? Is there a convention that I haven't heard about where when you change genres during a song you can ignore the clave?
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No you're not going crazy. Clave changes happen very frequently. That extra bar ( the 9 bar phrase ) is the key... err, clave... Papo Lucca is a master of this technique.

Nice rendition by La 33 of Favorite Things, considering it's originally a waltz.


btw, Tito Puente did Take Five in 4/4.
 
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clave changes happen a lot cause its really on big circle right?
2-3-2-3-2-3 and on and on...or is that not a correct way of describing it?
 
groovetpt said:
No you're not going crazy. Clave changes happen very frequently. That extra bar added is the key... err, clave... Papo Lucca is a master of this technique.

Nice rendition by La 33 of Favorite Things, considering it's originally a waltz.


But maybe not so unusual... Tito Puente did Take Five in 4.
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I get that the extra bar was used to switch to 3=2 for the 6/8 section, but I'm talking about AFTER the 6/8 section. They go back to 2=3 without using an extra (or missing) bar.
 
NeddieSeagoon said:
I get that the extra bar was used to switch to 3=2 for the 6/8 section, but I'm talking about AFTER the 6/8 section. They go back to 2=3 without using an extra (or missing) bar.
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Oh I see. Yes, the sax solo is back to 2-3 clave. Clave changes can happen both ways, with or without that extra bar. Kevin Moore has terms to describe both, but I can't recall what they are right now.

This arrangement is very tight and well planned out. Everybody knows what to do and when so it works. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for the rehearsal of this arrangement.

It's one thing to cross the clave and quite another to change the clave.
 
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calichris10 said:
clave changes happen a lot cause its really on big circle right?
2-3-2-3-2-3 and on and on...or is that not a correct way of describing it?
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You're right cali that clave is like a continuous loop but there are little tricks arrangers ( like Papo Lucca ) use to trip things up now and then. It's really cool when they do this subtly without too much fanfare. But kids, don't try this at home. :D
 
groovetpt said:
You're right cali that clave is like a continuous loop but there are little tricks arrangers ( like Papo Lucca ) use to trip things up now and then. It's really cool when they do this subtly without too much fanfare. But kids, don't try this at home. :D
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:) it can be a nice challenge for dancers also...sometimes frustrating :confused: but I like a challenge!!!
 
groovetpt said:
Oh I see. Yes, the sax solo is back to 2-3 clave. Clave changes can happen both ways, with or without that extra bar. Kevin Moore has terms to describe both, but I can't recall what they are right now.

This arrangement is very tight and well planned out. Everybody knows what to do and when so it works. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for the rehearsal of this arrangement.

It's one thing to cross the clave and quite another to change the clave deliberately.
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Sorry! I mis-used the term 'cross'. I have been under the impression that one should never EVER play only half the clave. That is, if there's an odd-numbered phrase, the next section must be in the opposite clave direction.
 
a little different but I Absolutely Love this song because of the change in rhythms!!!!! Sizzlin!!!!! Its a pull your hair song!!!
 
groovetpt said:
Oh I see. Yes, the sax solo is back to 2-3 clave. Clave changes can happen both ways, with or without that extra bar. Kevin Moore has terms to describe both, but I can't recall what they are right now.

This arrangement is very tight and well planned out. Everybody knows what to do and when so it works. I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall for the rehearsal of this arrangement.

It's one thing to cross the clave and quite another to change the clave.
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The term is 'clave license' if I recall correctly. Timberamayor has previously illustrated this point with Issac Delgado's 'No me mires a los ojos'.
 
NeddieSeagoon said:
I have been under the impression that one should never EVER play only half the clave. That is, if there's an odd-numbered phrase, the next section must be in the opposite clave direction.
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It's certainly very rare in NY and PR - the fact that LA33 are Colombian may be significant here. Timbera Mayor provided a chart with a few examples of this some years ago, and as I recall one was by Ray Barretto (!), so it is not unknown in NY, but it is very rare. I think in timba/Cuba in general it is absolutely fine, but the convention in NY/PR mambo and in salsa may be that it is bad form.

However there's no real reason why it can't be done I suppose.
 
GroovyMambo said:
The term is 'clave license' if I recall correctly. Timberamayor has previously illustrated this point with Issac Delgado's 'No me mires a los ojos'.
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Indeed, it is discussed in Debate #4 from the article "The Four Great Clave Debates"
http://www.timba.com/artist_pages/273

Clave license was actually a term coined by Juan Formell in an interview in Rebeca Mauleon's Montunos 101 book.
 
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