Books about Salsa

I've only read 15 - Salazar. I need to reread it but as I recall on the one hand it's repetitious and has some erroneous statements. Otoh it has a lot of good info and interviews with significant figures. The repetition is partly due to its being a collection of magazine articles; regardless he could have edited it. I really don't need to read 40 times that the 2 Titos hated each other. Particularly when TP claimed that such allegations were BS.

BTW & FWIW, there is some legitimate contention to TP's claim, relayed by Joe in "Mambo Diablo." Writer Aurora Flores revealed to me that, in a conversation with Tobi Rodriguez, the Japanese-American widow of TRod, she expressed to Aurora being 'floored' or dumbfounded' as to TP's presence at the funeral. Angel Rene who was, at one point, a confidant to TRod, the way Joe C was to TP, said he was surprised to see TP there. If I recall correctly Max relays an account in his book within the TRod chapter where Angel says Tobi was giving him problems because, apparently, TRod's wishes was not to let TP anywhere near his funeral wake. So while TP may have claimed the animosity was BS, there was obviously some modicum of disdain or bitterness towards Puente on the part of Tito Rodriguez.

Things of that nature are best left alone. Because it's pretty much an impossible endeavor to attempt to prove or disprove. With both subjects no longer among us. Angel Rene is still around last I checked. If you ask him, and he's honest about it, there was certainly an issue between them at some point. Maybe it wasn't hatred. But that one of them didn't want to break bread with the other is certainly plausible. We all know someone like this. We don't hate them by any means. But they're not in your inner circle and won't ever be. For reasons only you would know.
 
In case anyone is wondering why have a book dealing with Jazz discographies on a list of books on "Salsa," it is because you find the presence of many "Salsa" musicians. Who made Jazz a part of their life and resume.

Thank to Brian Rust’s "Jazz and Ragtime Records, 1897-1942" I was able to discover this rare gem, which took place on January 27, 1941. Ironically it falls on the same date the Machito orchestra record for the very first time. Look who is playing tumbadora [Conga drum] among the rest of the personnel in the Vincent Lopez orchestra:

Nick Morano, piano
Edward Sweeney, string bass
Tito Puente, conga drum
Angel M. Rodriguez, drums; maracas; vocals
Mike Renzulli, trumpet
Frank DiMartino, trumpet
Red Dolan, trumpet
Morty Bullman, trombone,
Chick Dahlsten, trombone
Milt Fried, clarinet; alto sax
Don Watt, clarinet, alto sax
Alois Johnson, tenor sax
Wesley Fogel, tenor sax
Sydney Harris, violin
Sydney Dwilling, violin
David Mordecai, violin
Myrta Silva, lead vocal
Vincent Lopez, conductor
 
ENRIC MADRIGUERA ORCHESTRA
"Amor De Guajiro"
(Recorded in Chicago on February 8, 1941)

Personnel:

Ernie Warren, piano
Frank Carroll, bass
Miguel Candia, drums
Tito Rodríguez bongos; coro (2da voz)
Arcadio Ruiz, trumpet
Jimmy Carroll, trumpet
Joe Brittain, clarinet
Bill Michails, alto sax
Rocky Jordan, tenor sax
Roger Heller, baritone sax
Alfredo Jamesworth, maracas
Sarita Herrera, vocals
Enric Madriguera, violin; leader

 
You don't need to read Mambo Diablo per se. Only because it offers nothing different from what's already out there. Now if you care about the details of TP getting high, or in what order his discography is in, then MD is recommended.

I agree that the scholarly/historical passages in Mambo diablo are pretty poor.

I don't exactly care about TP getting high however it's a part of who he was. Likewise his bitter diatribes about salsa, not to mention his positive comments about many of his contemporaries in Cuba and NY, etc etc. Reading it gave me a sense of who he was. (Obviously there must be plenty of other stuff he got up to that is not in the book.)
 
Re. Padura The Faces of Salsa:

I think he's one of the worst. Along with Leonardo Acosta. Which is a kind of blasphemy to say this publicly because they're so revered.

Bauzá is one of the people most of interest to me in that book, but as I recall that chapter doesn't particularly excite. The weakness of the book I suppose would be that Padura asks the questions and prints the answers without commenting on whether what he is publishing is historically accurate.

The reason I like the book though is because he's the only person I've read who makes it undeniable that son-based music in Cuba owes a massive debt to salsa. As I recall that's mostly in the intro and the chapters on Formell and Adalberto Álvarez. Normally we only hear the reverse i.e. salsa owes a lot to Cuba (which of course needs to be shouted from the rooftops, although hopefully nowadays it's common knowledge to anyone who's interested in such things).

I don't have my copy with me but I think Álvarez actually admits that in the 70s he had to buy a powerful radio to tune into Venezuelan radio stations playing salsa, as there was so little son being played in Cuba. This makes perfect sense considering the small number of son-based bands recording in Cuba from the early 60s to the end of the 70s.
 
The reason I like the book though is because he's the only person I've read who makes it undeniable that son-based music in Cuba owes a massive debt to salsa. As I recall that's mostly in the intro and the chapters on Formell and Adalberto Álvarez.

Hi Yuca,

The problem I have with the above, and not the sentiment per se, is he doesn't explain how that happens to be. It's just a statement or notion. I'm not sure but I don't think he's a trained musician. Something like that ought to be illustrated in technical terms. How does Cuban Son from Cuba owe a debt to music identified as 'Salsa?' Because if one chose to one could pour water over that assertion by citing examples of some of the worst productions to come out of the U.S. and Latin America. One could also choose the route of demonstrating by way of sales, promotion and distributional reach that, without music being labeled as "Salsa," the Son in Cuba would be an afterthought. Which is something that could be argued against as well. It could go either or. But everything has a path. Music, in particular, is too complex to strictly lean towards on school of thought. But you gotta present your position. If music production labeled as "Salsa" impacted Son Cubano how did it do so musically or technically?

In Ben Lapidus "New York and the International Sound of Latin Music, 1940-1990" a similar point is made, only in the context of WHI (and not 'what') was responsible for the music sounding the way it did in NYC that was distinct to the way Cubans in Cuba played it. Ben uses musical diagram(s) to illustrate the similarities of Son recorded/interpreted by NY based musicians, and comparing or contrasting to typical Son charts in Cuba. That's how you show and prove. Most authors on book revolved around Afro Cuban music just tell us. Few actually show us.

Normally we only hear the reverse i.e. salsa owes a lot to Cuba (which of course needs to be shouted from the rooftops, although hopefully nowadays it's common knowledge to anyone who's interested in such things).

I'm afraid ignorance abounds. Visit any youtube channel discussing "Latin Music" history and what you find is more misconception than enlightment. And it's from both sides of the pro-Salsa/anti-Salsa camps.

I don't have my copy with me but I think Álvarez actually admits that in the 70s he had to buy a powerful radio to tune into Venezuelan radio stations playing salsa, as there was so little son being played in Cuba. This makes perfect sense considering the small number of son-based bands recording in Cuba from the early 60s to the end of the 70s.

That's actually one of the things I don't get as to why he said that because there were a plethora of Son-oriented bands in Cuba, not playing Jazz, rock or Songo in the 1970s. Maybe the recording output was not there? In fact that's another area touched upon by Lapidus in NYATISOLM. The false notion that U.S. based musicians were somehow not privy to what was happening in Cuba, and Cuban musicians didn't know what was happening musically in the United States. Ben's book demonstrates how recordings themselves, produced in the U.S and Cuba, show us the complete opposite. Or how else does an ensemble like Irakere sound the way they do? Son Cubano (Guaracha, Montuno, Mambo, etc) with an electric guitar, trap drum kit and electric piano? Exactly like the Carlos Santana band. He shows how individual record collectors like Rene Lopez and tge late percussionist Manny Oquendo kept abreast of the happenings in Cuba after the '59 revolution in Cuba. Manny is who exposed Eddie Palmieri to the new Mozambique sound by Pello El Afrokan. Allowing EP to produce a rendition of it. How is Tipica '73 recording Songo styled tunes like "La Candela" by Los Van Van if there's a wall between Cuba and the U.S., the way the Salsa Goals youtube channel contends? (No offense brother!)

I just think it could be better. Because both Padura and Acosta have access to U.S. based archivists, collectors, music industry people and can pursue a much deeper investigation (scrutiny) of what the popular narratives are. But they're convinced Mario Bauza invented an entire genre of music. Even Juan de Marcos Gonzalez of Afro Cuban All-Stars fame constantly cites Mario Bauza's importance as an arranger. Yet is unable to furnish the total amount of charts Mario arranged. That's because Nario was never an arranger. Prolifically or occasionally. But that's part of the legend surrounding Mario Bauza. Paul Austerlitz study on how the Machito orchestra invented Afro-Cuban Jazz is a hagiographic presentation. And he's a PhD scholar.

When people decide that a square peg CAN fit into a circle, there's no stopping them from trying to push that opinion as being a fact. Or they'll use something out of context to justify what they're lobbying.
 
That's actually one of the things I don't get as to why he said that because there were a plethora of Son-oriented bands in Cuba, not playing Jazz, rock or Songo in the 1970s. Maybe the recording output was not there?

I'm pretty sure the recording output was not there i.e. son-based music in Cuba in the 70s. According to The Faces of Salsa, son went out of fashion in Cuba in the post-revolution period, and rock (domestic and US) became popular. This is is also mentioned in more detail in the intro and opening chapter of Timba: The Sound of the Cuban Crisis, which I've never read in the flesh but extracts can be accessed online. According to that book, the change in musical taste reflected disillusion with the new regime; also some of Castro's policies aimed at helping traditional musicians ended up doing them more harm than good.

Obviously Van Van, Orquesta Revé, Orquesta Ritmo Oriental and Irakere had success in 70s Cuba with son-based music (albeit not traditional son. In Irakere's case it was based in son and rumba.) But other popular artists in Cuba playing son or son-based music? Very, very few that I've ever been able to find out about. There were more in the 80s and of course in the 90s timba became popular in Cuba.
 
Even Juan de Marcos Gonzalez of Afro Cuban All-Stars fame constantly cites Mario Bauza's importance as an arranger. Yet is unable to furnish the total amount of charts Mario arranged. That's because Nario was never an arranger. Prolifically or occasionally. But that's part of the legend surrounding Mario Bauza. Paul Austerlitz study on how the Machito orchestra invented Afro-Cuban Jazz is a hagiographic presentation. And he's a PhD scholar.

To be fair Bauzá was with Machito for many years, so he must have been good at what he did. And until someone compiles a list of Latin jazz or proto-Latin jazz releases that predate Machito's discography, he and Bauzá will probably remain considered as the inventors of the genre.
 
I'm pretty sure the recording output was not there i.e. son-based music in Cuba in the 70s. According to The Faces of Salsa, son went out of fashion in Cuba in the post-revolution period, and rock (domestic and US) became popular. This is is also mentioned in more detail in the intro and opening chapter of Timba: The Sound of the Cuban Crisis, which I've never read in the flesh but extracts can be accessed online. According to that book, the change in musical taste reflected disillusion with the new regime; also some of Castro's policies aimed at helping traditional musicians ended up doing them more harm than good.

Obviously Van Van, Orquesta Revé, Orquesta Ritmo Oriental and Irakere had success in 70s Cuba with son-based music (albeit not traditional son. In Irakere's case it was based in son and rumba.) But other popular artists in Cuba playing son or son-based music? Very, very few that I've ever been able to find out about. There were more in the 80s and of course in the 90s timba became popular in Cuba.

Some time in April they will be having a symposium on Popular trends in Contemporary Cuban music, sponsored by Columbia University, hosted at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Chris Washburne, Ben Lapidus and others comprise the panel. One of the things that will be brought up are the Son based bands of the '70s and where they are now. There were many, or more than what people think.

Basically a new generation that continued the legacy of much older ensembles like Septeto Nacional, Arsenio Rodriguez, etc. I'll find out if it's being streamed or Zoomed. If so, I'll post a link here.
 
Some time in April they will be having a symposium on Popular trends in Contemporary Cuban music, sponsored by Columbia University, hosted at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. Chris Washburne, Ben Lapidus and others comprise the panel. One of the things that will be brought up are the Son based bands of the '70s and where they are now. There were many, or more than what people think.

Basically a new generation that continued the legacy of much older ensembles like Septeto Nacional, Arsenio Rodriguez, etc. I'll find out if it's being streamed or Zoomed. If so, I'll post a link here.

There were a few successful bands in 70s Cuba playing son-based music (most noted above), so it stands to reason there will have been a few more bands along those lines that weren't so successful. Beyond that: I can't imagine it but I'll happily stand corrected.
 
To be fair Bauzá was with Machito for many years, so he must have been good at what he did. And until someone compiles a list of Latin jazz or proto-Latin jazz releases that predate Machito's discography, he and Bauzá will probably remain considered as the inventors of the genre.

So too were many others. Among musicians Rene Hernandez is the most influential arranger of Afro-Cuban Music in history. Yet he is not a household name. He was quiet, laid in the cut and went about his business. He should have been a full time orchestra leader. Instead he was the secret weapon for bandleaders like Machito, Vicentico Valdes, Tito Rodriguez, etc. That early 1970s Eddie Palmieri sound belongs to Rene. Yet it's Mario Bauza who contemporary scholars, musicians and aficionados who cite Mario being the "genius" behind the "Machito" sound.

Mario Bauza was the musical director of Machito and the Afro Cubans. That credit is enough to warrant Mr. Bauza , or anyone else, the respect they deserve. Unfortunately Mario is guilty of taking liberties with his own resume, accomplishments, and attributing responsibility over certain events of note by way of his oral history.

There is one oral history ienterview that has eluded me that I'm aware he did. But I've heard a fair number of them conducted by the Smithsonian, Max Salazar, John Storm Roberts, Ruth Glasser, etc (non-televised interviews) and, seemingly depending on who he was communicating with, or what he was asked, there are conflicting accounts with what he shared in each one. Albeit some of his "boasts" were consistent throughout.

Interestingly enough, in an interview with Max Salazar on WKCR Columbia University radio, Max indicates to Mario how he (Max) managed to determine a date in May (I think it was May 29, 1943?) for the "creation" of Afro-Cuban Jazz. In response Mario contradicts him. My guess was to knock Max down a peg as being a 'swami' or confident enough to believe he had pinpointed a date/year for such a thing. Mario goes on to tell him "Well Max... that is not so. Even earlier than that Afro Cuban Jazz had been started." When I heard that my thought was 'Hallelujah! The old man is going to bring up earlier examples of a fusion between Jazz and Afro Cuban music (all of which are documented by way of recordings). But he name dropped a composition of his own, which Mario stated he had written in 1930 while he was still in Cuba, entitled "Lona," as being the first Fusion between Afro-Cuban music & Jazz. Before Tanga.

In 1934 the Chick Webb orchestra records "Lona" and it is labeled as a fox-trot. To my ears I hear zero Afro-Cuban elements being interpreted. Maybe when Mario wrote it he had percussion or other ideas containing Cuban musical trappings. But it was never recorded until it was released as a fox-trot in '34. And you don't get credit for ideas. It has to be produced for recognition. What got produced in '34 via the Chick Webb orchestra added more to the popular Jazz vocabulary than it did to the Fusion of Afro-Cuban Jazz. But you be the judge:

 
earlier examples of a fusion between Jazz and Afro Cuban music (all of which are documented by way of recordings).

Are any of those on YT? If so please list some examples. That more than anything will help set the record straight.

Maybe Lona would work well in Afro-Cuban, but the fact that (as far as I know) Bauzá never recorded it as such suggests it wasn't any sort of potential Latin classic.
 
@Richie Blondet I don't see Ned Sublette's book listed here. Do you not think it's good?

My list is incomplete as I noted at the end of my post. Ned's book didn't come to mind when I compiled what I remembered that stood out for me. With that said "Cuba and its Music" has its solid offerings. But, ljke some of tge books I listed, Ned also adapts some of what he wrote to the poorly researched "popular history" narrative. Particularly when the book delves into the NY pre-1950s period. Which is a topic most scholarship on Cuban music seem to consistently mischaracterize. Christina Abreu's book comes to mind. Who completely mischaracterizes the 1930s & '40s era, along with musical ensembles themselves (like the Happy Boys) in her quest to demonstrate the Cubanization of NYC in the 1930s-'40s.

Regarding Ned's Cuba and its Music, on the one hand, if you wanted to know the actual details surrounding the April 1930 tour of the Havana Casino orchestra in NYC and how an unknown band as theirs (in NY/USA) managed to score a gig at the top theater in the city (RKO Palace theater) then I would recommend that section of the book in "Cuba and its Music." But if you're interest is to examine the history and origins of the Palladium ballroom on Broadway, NYC, I would recommend you steer clear from the section of Ned's book that touches on that.

My list are my personal choices that helped me further grasp a much wider scope of a variety of topics.But, ultimately, my general recommendation is for one to read everything. Not just scholarly publications, but primary archival sources as well. The more you absorb, the more I believe one would be able to reasonably gauge or discern what is fact from misconception.
 
Are any of those on YT? If so please list some examples. That more than anything will help set the record straight.

Maybe Lona would work well in Afro-Cuban, but the fact that (as far as I know) Bauzá never recorded it as such suggests it wasn't any sort of potential Latin classic.


This was recorded on Nov. 25th of 1940. Prior to Machito and the Afro-Cubans first recording in June of '41. Three years prior to the "legend" of when 'Tanga' is supposedly developed. The voicing and phrasing of the brass are reflective of the Jazz of the era. It's no coincidence Machito is the vocalist. Alberto Iznaga, who nobody talks about today, was in the USA before Mario Bauza. So was Alberto Socarras. Both of them comprised pre-1930s "Hot" Jazz ensembles upon their arrival. Iznaga is who sat in the sax chair when the Machito band first (and unsuccessfully) attempted to launch in 1939. When the talent booker at the new Club Cuba in NYC contracts "Machito" in Sept. 1940 to be the headliner, accompanied by the band he was working with at the time (La Siboney led by Alberto Iznaga), Mr. Iznaga decided to opt out of the residency and advised Machito of the awkwardness he felt of the club marketing the band, his band, as "Machito y La Siboney." But he was also not bitter enough to leave him in the lurch. So, according to both Machito and Alberto Iznaga (who conveyed this to Max Salazar) Iznaga told Machito he could stay with the band while they were at the Club Cuba. The gentleman promoting the weekly dances at Club Cuba (who Machito credits with coming up with his own stage name) is who Machito also credits with coming up with the term Afro-Cubans as the name of the band. Mind you Mario Bauza is with Cab Calloway at that juncture.

An earlier recording that comes to mind is "Señorita," by the Orquesta Victor Antillana. Which was a pseudonym for the Rafael Hernandez orchestra, when he was still residing in NY.

I hipped Ben Lapidus to this recording, who was floored when he first heard it. So much so that he included a passage in a section of his latest book ("New York and the International Sound of Latin Music, 1940-1990") it touches on pre-Machito Afro-Cuban Fusions with Jazz. The song itself is a Fox-Trot, though the Victor record label classified it as a "Rumba-Fox." Which, by default, alludes to a fusion taking place between what was known as Cuban music in the U.S. ("Rumba") and what was recognized as popular Jazz dance music ("Fox-Trots").

This was recorded in 1932:


The intro could have just as easily been a Paul Whiteman recording, or any other typical pre-Swing Jazz band of the day. And, when Davilita begins to sing, his style is reminiscent of the famous singer Eddie Cantor. But it's at the 1:39 mark where the band funks it up and makes that left to Havana. What's interesting is that Davilita, who starts out singing in the spanish language, switches to the english language, as soon as the song gets Afro-Cubanized.

For better or for worse, this is fusion. This is undeniably Afro-Cuban Jazz.
 
Thanks Richie, very interesting stuff. I've listened to both tracks twice. My non-expert opinions:

Yumba murumba (1940): Machito must have taken a lot of inspiration from this sound. The song, arrangements and vocal all sound very Cuban, whilst the band also owes a lot to US big band jazz. Indeed it could easily be mistaken for an early Machito track, although I don't think I hear 3 percussionists.

Do you know if Iznaga did anything else along similar lines? With or without Machito on vocals. I'd love to hear his orchestra do a rhythm more to my tastes (a guaguancó or a guaracha for example).

Señorita (1932): this sounds like a pioneering track i.e. mixing Cuba with NY jazz. I'd be interested to read the Lapidus analysis (unfortunately a certain famous online retailer are refusing to sell me a copy of the book until I can ring them up to confirm my identity). I must admit though that I can't see how it differs much to what Azpiazú did a couple of years earlier with El manisero.

Would I class either as Afro-Cuban jazz or Latin jazz? To me they're both prototypes.
 
Do you know if Iznaga did anything else along similar lines? With or without Machito on vocals. I'd love to hear his orchestra do a rhythm more to my tastes (a guaguancó or a guaracha for example).

Found some good ones by him on YT.
 
Thanks Richie, very interesting stuff. I've listened to both tracks twice. My non-expert opinions:

Yumba murumba (1940): Machito must have taken a lot of inspiration from this sound. The song, arrangements and vocal all sound very Cuban, whilst the band also owes a lot to US big band jazz. Indeed it could easily be mistaken for an early Machito track, although I don't think I hear 3 percussionists.

No "Latin" orchestra in NYC, or no place, had 3 percussionists. That takes place in '43. If you think the Machito band sounds akin to this that's because a good chunk of the bands in NY sounded like this. Jazz-oriented. For the same reason ensembles like Irakere, Eddie Palmieri's, and the Fania All-Stars adopted electric instruments to give their sound a "Rock" feel. Which is what also happened with the Jazz community. Because Rock was the popular music of the day. The bands from the late '30s/early '40s are impacted by the Swing era. Groups led by Noro Morales and Augusto Cohen sound like Iznaga's, and the early Machito orchestra recordings are mirror image. The one commonality is that those four bands in particular are utilizing the services of Joseph H. Madera, aka "Pin." He did many of their arrangements. Prior to establishing himself with Machito's band he was a member of Orquesta Hermanos Morales (Noro) and Alberto Iznaga's La Siboney. And that's probably why they sound similar.

Do you know if Iznaga did anything else along similar lines? With or without Machito on vocals. I'd love to hear his orchestra do a rhythm more to my tastes (a guaguancó or a guaracha for example).

Sure. Here is the recording debut of Dioris Valladares with Iznaga's band.

Señorita (1932): this sounds like a pioneering track i.e. mixing Cuba with NY jazz.

Only it isn't. There are more than several recordings like this. Unfortunately many of them are not available online.

I'd be interested to read the Lapidus analysis (unfortunately a certain famous online retailer are refusing to sell me a copy of the book until I can ring them up to confirm my identity). I must admit though that I can't see how it differs much to what Azpiazú did a couple of years earlier with El manisero.

Why not go straight to the publisher? They're selling the paperback for $30. https://www.upress.state.ms.us/Books/N/New-York-and-the-International-Sound-of-Latin-Music-1940-1990

El Manicero is recorded as a Son Pregon. Señorita is a Fox-Trot. Two entirely distinct rhythms. Like I mentioned, put on any Paul Whiteman, Red Nichols, or Eddie Cantor recording and "Señorita" evokes the Jazz of that era (pre-Swing).

Check out this clip of Paul Whiteman. Listen to the arrangement and how the instruments are used:

Now listen to the very same Rafael Hernandez Orchestra, aka "Orquesta Victor Antillana." This one is a Guaracha but it's clearly influenced by the Fox trots of the era. The orchestration is modeled after those styles of of ensembles. Clarinet heavy, strings, etc.

Would I class either as Afro-Cuban jazz or Latin jazz? To me they're both prototypes.

The question then becomes what is Jazz? And if you mix Cuban music/rhythms with it, what does it become? In the 1920s until about '33 Fox-Trots were identified as Jazz for that generation. Swing Jazz is on the verge of emerging in '33. BeBop does not exist until tge early '40s right in the middle of the recording ban (and why BOP was not documented during its infancy). In retrospect you can certainly consider it a proto-type to the Afro-Cuban Jazz that came later in albums like Machito's Kenya, or Puente's Revolving Bandstand, Ray B's "The Other Road," and Jerry's "Rumba Para Monk." But a proto-type is nevertheless an example of something that became established. Thus, how could Mario Bauza have created Afro Cuban Jazz when there is a body of recordings to refute this assertion? It goes back to Ragtime being fused with music from the Caribbean. BTW-For something to be "Latin Jazz," Afro-Cuban percussion is not necessary. Ensembles as Miguel Zenon's Quartet and Bobby Sanabria's Quarteto Aché interpret Jazz with Afro-Cuban or Latin American themes and there isn't a tumbadora ("Conga") drum in sight.
 
Sorry Yuca. I just finished watching the Whiteman video on YouTube. But I guess it isn't accessible if you post it elsewhere. You can always check on youtube.
 
Hi, Richie. I have no argument at all with you regarding the "musical wall" with Cuba and the U.S. In fact, I hear and actually agree with what you are saying 100%! Like I said before, I consider you an important resource of musicology information. However, it's important to note that what I am saying can potentially be confused with the narrative that many say since that may be what is commonly heard. That's why I try to choose my words in my videos very carefully.

Notice that I didn't say that "musicians" in each location didn't know what was happening on the other side of that "musical wall". I said "music lovers" didn't know. There is a reason for that.

I wasn't referring to the musicians who play the music. Obviously they were able to access the music. As you alluded to earlier, why else would Cuban groups like Irakere and Los Van Van (among others) be able to experiment with so many contemporary North American musical elements (Jazz, Funk, etc.)? What about U.S. groups like Tipica '73? I get it. The field of "Latin Jazz" in particular (in contrast with "Salsa" music) to the best of my knowledge currently, seems to reflect this awareness of what is going on. (And many musicians play both "Salsa" and "Latin Jazz", so they are aware). But, that type of overlap might not always exist for the listening audiences of "Salsa" and Latin Jazz (which may sometimes overlap, but may perhaps more frequently remain separate).


So, while the U.S. musicians may have known and applied musical innovations from Cuba (and vice versa) that awareness didn't necessarily seem to apply to the general "Salsa" music listening/dancing fanbase in the same way.

So if one is expecting me to simply rehash the narrative that others may repeat, I understand how it may seem that I am saying that the musicians weren't aware of what was going on after the embargo. After all, it's a common idea that many have repeated often.

But, I try not to simply regurgitate what is commonly said just because it's widely assumed. I try to be objective and practical with my perspectives which is why I attempt to word my statements carefully. This is why I specified that general "music lovers" weren't necessarily aware of the musical development on the others side of the embargo in order to allow for the possibility that the "musicians" did know. And this understanding was partly influenced by all the great posts here at salsaforums.com! So, I am really grateful to these forums because they are so educational!



Hi Yuca,

The problem I have with the above, and not the sentiment per se, is he doesn't explain how that happens to be. It's just a statement or notion. I'm not sure but I don't think he's a trained musician. Something like that ought to be illustrated in technical terms. How does Cuban Son from Cuba owe a debt to music identified as 'Salsa?' Because if one chose to one could pour water over that assertion by citing examples of some of the worst productions to come out of the U.S. and Latin America. One could also choose the route of demonstrating by way of sales, promotion and distributional reach that, without music being labeled as "Salsa," the Son in Cuba would be an afterthought. Which is something that could be argued against as well. It could go either or. But everything has a path. Music, in particular, is too complex to strictly lean towards on school of thought. But you gotta present your position. If music production labeled as "Salsa" impacted Son Cubano how did it do so musically or technically?

In Ben Lapidus "New York and the International Sound of Latin Music, 1940-1990" a similar point is made, only in the context of WHI (and not 'what') was responsible for the music sounding the way it did in NYC that was distinct to the way Cubans in Cuba played it. Ben uses musical diagram(s) to illustrate the similarities of Son recorded/interpreted by NY based musicians, and comparing or contrasting to typical Son charts in Cuba. That's how you show and prove. Most authors on book revolved around Afro Cuban music just tell us. Few actually show us.



I'm afraid ignorance abounds. Visit any youtube channel discussing "Latin Music" history and what you find is more misconception than enlightment. And it's from both sides of the pro-Salsa/anti-Salsa camps.



That's actually one of the things I don't get as to why he said that because there were a plethora of Son-oriented bands in Cuba, not playing Jazz, rock or Songo in the 1970s. Maybe the recording output was not there? In fact that's another area touched upon by Lapidus in NYATISOLM. The false notion that U.S. based musicians were somehow not privy to what was happening in Cuba, and Cuban musicians didn't know what was happening musically in the United States. Ben's book demonstrates how recordings themselves, produced in the U.S and Cuba, show us the complete opposite. Or how else does an ensemble like Irakere sound the way they do? Son Cubano (Guaracha, Montuno, Mambo, etc) with an electric guitar, trap drum kit and electric piano? Exactly like the Carlos Santana band. He shows how individual record collectors like Rene Lopez and tge late percussionist Manny Oquendo kept abreast of the happenings in Cuba after the '59 revolution in Cuba. Manny is who exposed Eddie Palmieri to the new Mozambique sound by Pello El Afrokan. Allowing EP to produce a rendition of it. How is Tipica '73 recording Songo styled tunes like "La Candela" by Los Van Van if there's a wall between Cuba and the U.S., the way the Salsa Goals youtube channel contends? (No offense brother!)

I just think it could be better. Because both Padura and Acosta have access to U.S. based archivists, collectors, music industry people and can pursue a much deeper investigation (scrutiny) of what the popular narratives are. But they're convinced Mario Bauza invented an entire genre of music. Even Juan de Marcos Gonzalez of Afro Cuban All-Stars fame constantly cites Mario Bauza's importance as an arranger. Yet is unable to furnish the total amount of charts Mario arranged. That's because Nario was never an arranger. Prolifically or occasionally. But that's part of the legend surrounding Mario Bauza. Paul Austerlitz study on how the Machito orchestra invented Afro-Cuban Jazz is a hagiographic presentation. And he's a PhD scholar.

When people decide that a square peg CAN fit into a circle, there's no stopping them from trying to push that opinion as being a fact. Or they'll use something out of context to justify what they're lobbying.
 
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