Bolero, Danzon, Bolero-Son, Danzon-Cha and all the confusion around it

Rosendo Rosell's Caimitillo y marañón is a good song for picking apart these genres.

Tito Puente / Rolando La'Serie recorded it as cha cha combined with the bolero Cobarde

Fania All Stars recorded the same medley, but there the bolero part itself is more of a cha cha.

Rosendo Rosell's instrumental recording starts out cha cha-ish, then has a bolero-ish part (is this the same medley with Cobarde?), but also has a bit of proper danzón in there.

He also has one with Julio Valdés singing, which has a danzón start (and which includes Cobarde again).

Lou Perez' take has the danzón showing more strongly even in that bolero part

Ok by now it seems pretty clear the Cobarde is always in there (though in terms of mood the two parts are a strange fit). Supposedly Nelson Pinedo recorded Cobarde stand-alone, but I haven't been able to listen to that take.

There's a bunch more recordings; I haven't tried figuring out when they were all recorded so far
 
Sonora Ponceña's Borinquen (canta Yolanda Rivera) fits here, too (just heard it on Abayarde's radio show). It starts slow with baqueteo, very bolero feel, switching to a son montuno later on. The video title classifies it "danza", though that doesn't seem to be sourced from the artwork.

 
Gaviota said:
Sonora Ponceña's Borinquen (canta Yolanda Rivera) fits here, too (just heard it on Abayarde's radio show). It starts slow with baqueteo, very bolero feel, switching to a son montuno later on. The video title classifies it "danza", though that doesn't seem to be sourced from the artwork.

Click to expand...
The "baqueteo" you hear is in reference to Danza and not a Danzon. Listen to the baqueteo on Palmieri's intro to Colombia Te Canto to hear the slight distinction.

Technically the danza segues into a guaracha. I guess you can say it is a 'Son Boricua.' Or a lo Boricua.
 
Richie Blondet said:
The "baqueteo" you hear is in reference to Danza and not a Danzon. Listen to the baqueteo on Palmieri's intro to Colombia Te Canto to hear the slight distinction.
Click to expand...

Is the distinction you mean in the "straight" half of the baqueteo, where danzón would have four straight beats, while the Sonora Ponceña / danza has just three (with the third a drum roll)?

Here's Colombia te canto (RIP Eddie Palmieri)


Here's another track I just stumbled upon, from Venezuela, penned by Billo Frometa. It has a straight baqueteo going through, but otherwise lacks danzón structure. Not that we need to give it a name, but if there is a good one, what'd we call it?

Felipe Pirela - El son se fue de Cuba (Venezuela, 1977)

(Both recordings mess with the baqueteo during the intro, repeating the syncopated side, essentially "breaking the clave". I guess with the baqueteo, it's more common to take liberties along those lines.)
 
A ver señores, probably I‘m captain obvious as all my life but as this is a forum, just to make sure:
I learned:
Baqueteo is a cinquillo with some „kicks“ as it is in the intro - so more „haitian“ or „bantu“
„Paseo“ is a clave-adapted groove consisting of a baqueteo in one bar and a 4/4 in the other.
Does this add something to the conversation or should I just still stay away from social media after my meetings with Me. Rioja?
 
Latinjazz said:
A ver señores, probably I‘m captain obvious as all my life but as this is a forum, just to make sure:
I learned:
Baqueteo is a cinquillo with some „kicks“ as it is in the intro - so more „haitian“ or „bantu“
„Paseo“ is a clave-adapted groove consisting of a baqueteo in one bar and a 4/4 in the other.
Click to expand...

I thought baqueteo was what you call paseo here: one bar cinquillo and the other 4/4. But... not sure where I picked the term up. English wikipedia does have it in the cinquillo article, but otherwise, mention of baqueteo next to danzón is quite rare, while there's plenty of cinquillo references. Here's one of those rare references, citing Gerard, Behague and Robin Moore. 2001. “Cuba: Popular Genres.” https://theclassicjournal.uga.edu/index.php/2017/04/09/danzon-de-cuba-music-and-dancing/
 
Gaviota said:
I thought baqueteo was what you call paseo here: one bar cinquillo and the other 4/4. But... not sure where I picked the term up. English wikipedia does have it in the cinquillo article, but otherwise, mention of baqueteo next to danzón is quite rare, while there's plenty of cinquillo references. Here's one of those rare references, citing Gerard, Behague and Robin Moore. 2001. “Cuba: Popular Genres.” https://theclassicjournal.uga.edu/index.php/2017/04/09/danzon-de-cuba-music-and-dancing/
Click to expand...
I had my stuff mixed up, I SHOULD not combine Mr. Rioja and Salsaforums.
You are absolutely right. My confusion is from different conversations with different percussion players, sometimes people combine terms or call them differently. But "your" version came out as the correct one. And "paseo" was more of a break with strong cinquillo orientation.
However, where I am quite sure is the link from baqueteo to danzon, it is usually the number 1 groove timbaleros refer to when speaking about the rhythm Danzon.
On the other side, clave-oriented rhythms are quite new to danzon and I'm sure over the history the first 60-100 years of danzon were without baqueteo in Clave.
Sorry for the confusion!

One of the reference videos:
 
BTW, in this context of percussion players using different terms:
I had a couple of discussions with percussionist speaking of "Charanga" as a rhythm, often being "Pachanga", but some of them were stating it is different rhythms.
And even if being born out of a local way of playing Pachanga and then using the terminology "charanga" for it (so - historically "wrong" ) , once things exist they exist.
Does anybody know about this phenomenon? Rhythm called Charanga which is NOT Pachanga being called wrongly like the instrumental format of the group with violins, flute, timbales etc?
 
Latinjazz said:
BTW, in this context of percussion players using different terms:
I had a couple of discussions with percussionist speaking of "Charanga" as a rhythm, often being "Pachanga", but some of them were stating it is different rhythms.
And even if being born out of a local way of playing Pachanga and then using the terminology "charanga" for it (so - historically "wrong" ) , once things exist they exist.
Does anybody know about this phenomenon? Rhythm called Charanga which is NOT Pachanga being called wrongly like the instrumental format of the group with violins, flute, timbales etc?
Click to expand...

Not from percussionists, or for a rhythm specifically, but:

I've heard of the genre charanga be used to refer to salsa music played by charangas. Timeline being ~1960 Cuban charangas introducing pachanga ... ~1970 NY salsa orchestras playing "salsa" (guarachas, son montunos, pachangas, all the things) ... ~1980 NY charangas playing all those things = "charanga".

With that ~1970 to ~1980 transition being driven by the economic pressure, a charanga formation being cheaper than a full salsa orchestra with brass.
 
Gaviota said:
Not from percussionists, or for a rhythm specifically, but:

I've heard of the genre charanga be used to refer to salsa music played by charangas. Timeline being ~1960 Cuban charangas introducing pachanga ... ~1970 NY salsa orchestras playing "salsa" (guarachas, son montunos, pachangas, all the things) ... ~1980 NY charangas playing all those things = "charanga".

With that ~1970 to ~1980 transition being driven by the economic pressure, a charanga formation being cheaper than a full salsa orchestra with brass.
Click to expand...
Yes, that is part of what led to this confusion, many if them played Pachanga. So at some point there was a confusion with the terms.
I think there was even a song by Charlie Palmieri talking about the correct term.
Let me check
 
This one:

However, the confusion I lived is with percussion players. Some of them actually Cubans. Telling me Charanga is a different rhythm and then playing what I consider a version of Pachanga.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top