Basic step: shoulders rotating backwards or forwards?

[MamboJazz]

I don't understand the thread title: there's always one shoulder rotating backwards and the other rotating forwards. Both doing the same obviously would be weird. So what's the question about?

 

[Chris_Yannick]

The problem with rolling is that it invariably leads to 'rolling up' instead of 'rolling back.' And that introduces tension in the body when it shouldn't exist.

So when you watch that Oliver Pineda workshop or DVD, people see that he's doing full shoulder rotations as a stylistic choice because it sells people on that 'tropical vibe.' But when he does those machine gun fast shimmy moves in competition, he isolates his shoulders without any excess noise and it looks more masculine.

I'm a fan of practicing the 'no noise' approach to isolating the shoulders. If you try to align your shoulders to your rib cage right away, it becomes harder to synchronize.

I think of the motion as being 'forward and back' only, and of course, I think of using the lats rather than forcing the shoulders forward or back.

 

[1derpalm]

Generally sematics as understood by those fluent in English and those not can cause a difference of opinion. Most dance teachers including ballroom will say no push and pull. Usually they are refering to either arm lead or excessive force where you literally move the partner. Analogy and more nuanced way would be to say do not push a shopping cart like you are pushing a fridge.

I think I get a picture of what you meant in fhe original post about "Shoulders still do roll back, but at the same time as ribcage is moving, which looks natural and unforced (to me)" That indeed is the more natural and correct way for unforced cuban motion when dancing basic or getting that cuban/Salsa dancing grove in your upper body. A lot of people dance without any movement in their upper body. But when you have it, you can lead even a beginner follower who intuitively are able to step to the rhythm (my experience). Though many instructors when teaching how to incorporate cuban motion in the basic might incorrectly say to roll the ribcage, it is more like 80% forward and back movement and 20% rolling. @desconocida is right that there is no shoulder roll during basic but whatever shoulders move is the result of cuban motion.

Closest thing I would say if you were to isolate, it is like doing slow shimmy with your ribcage but lift the ribcage side up when going back. Which is classical way any rolling is broken down when teaching.

For styling and accepting there are many things we do including explicitly rolling shoulders that we don't do when dancing basic. It is a movement done with deliberate intention rather than natural. It is like how beginners will deliberately try to move their hips. Because they are how good dancer's seem to move and want to replicate it.

I seen a couple of your videos you had posted but don't see your frame as femine nor your movements. Since multiple teaches said so to you, may be you look like that when demonstrating broken down movement to them. Did they say that after dancing with you?

Also making your movements a bit sharper than how you are doing now can give you that masculine aesthetics. That could mean a less smooth move for you.

Seaon danced both as a follower and as a masculine. I seen a few of his teaching video clips where some of his movement do seem a bit femine. In reality he was nothing like it. He was very masculine dancer when it came to body movement and had explosive movements. He could also be able to do femine styling and make it look better than most women I seen. In his teaching he would also break down every movement to its basics components and then put it back together. He paid extreme attention to the details of the movement including how you used your shape your fingers for a man vs a woman. There was one guy in the class who was extremely good with body movement and styling. If you saw him practice, it would look femine. But when he danced it wouldn't.

Personally from the video you posted, I am not fan of the movent of guy in the hat. I seen cuban dancers do the similar kind of movement that is executed more smoothly and is still sharp while it looks natural and flowing seamlessly without looking femine.

I think you have taken rumba classes when in Cuba. Rumba is a good example of how a man's movements are taught/done and how ladies' are done. There is a contrast.

I can only recall 1 vid I was wiling yo be brave enough to share. Ironically that was the trip where all but my Son teacher (she said my cadence is too salsa) my teachers said my hips move like a woman and not masculine enough, my shoulders need to roll (I never focused on that ever) and even a street dancer friend told me that some of the locals think I'm good for a yuma but that I need to use my shoulders more (then he demoed rolling). All of this is in solo and guapea mind you. So that was 6 teachers and a friend, all in the city where I someone's opinion on my dancing actually matters to me. One could forgive my relatively newfound obsession with trying to get it right.
But if rhe shoulders font roll, why was this thread in existence with videos of all these famous people showing shoulders rolling during basic? Lol.
Anyways, my original list is how I articulate the movement which is neither here nor there.
On an aside about the rumba, my teacher was very minimalistic. His philosophy is neutral-collapse. Knees forward, rigid waist (some movement is inevitable as a result of pushing catching, pushing back and collecting to push to the other side) but he is not a fan of excessive showy rumba. The movement is a result of collapsing from the lower ribcage up, with some lumbar rotation to lead the elbow up (for neck wins and arm raises). His sals movement looks almost nonexistent and perhaps internal.
Anyways I am clouding up this thread which was not my intention.
I think I will make a post of salsa dancers who's non hip movement I covet since my hip/lower torso is what I hate as my upper body is now fairly acceptable.
Maybe, @Offbeat , I'll be brave enough to send you, as an OG of the site, a vid with my musings so as to stop traffic jamming the threads.

 

[desconocida]

I'll let my teachers who live and grew up where the dance was created and oliver Pineda that they are wrong ;P.

To me that whole statement was just semantics. You use your shoulder nodes, the shoulders roll. You roll your shoukders. Some do, and some don't.
Most of my teacher ( cbaan onez) say roll my shoulders. They mean with the shoukder blades. And at the correct time in the kinetic chain so it looks natural.
And they move nothing like Franklin Diaz.

I find this is a wierd north American eurocentric thing. Like " don't say push or pull. Never push or pull". I told a teacher about this and she lead ne through something, lighter than a lot of people who say "never push or pull". And then she said "I'm pushing you. What do you expect me to say". You push. Awheel chair but it is a smooth ride. You pull boat to the dock with rope and it is soft and smooth. It's how you do it that matters. You push by using your legs and moving with the body. You pull by moving your core the opposite direction. Semantics.

Feel fre to do that. Either you misunderstood them or they aren't very good at explaining what exactly they are doing - not an uncommon thing among Cuban dancers, btw. And no, it is not semantics. It is, indeed, very important to the movement where exactly it originates. If you've been dancing for years and still haven't figured out why your basic looks "ballroomy" - that's a strong indication that you just aren't on the right path and what your teachers are teaching you is just not it. I see my mission here in trying to explain and maybe be helpful, if it's not - I can totally live with that. It was free advice which you are entirely free to ignore.

 

[desconocida]

I don't understand the thread title: there's always one shoulder rotating backwards and the other rotating forwards. Both doing the same obviously would be weird. So what's the question about?

That is not exactly right, neither - both shoulder roll back, just in opposite timings, so to speak. We typically refer to rolling back when your shoulder makes a circle that passes the points "forward, up, back, down". Yes, there is a half a circle of of movement that technically rolls forward via down - the "back, down, forward" part - but it's customary to call this movement "rolling back". "Rolling forward" is the movement "back, up, forward, down", like you would do in the Pilón movement, for example. Hope this disentangles the confusion a little bit.

 

[MamboJazz]

That is not exactly right, neither - both shoulder roll back, just in opposite timings, so to speak. We typically refer to rolling back when your shoulder makes a circle that passes the points "forward, up, back, down". Yes, there is a half a circle of of movement that technically rolls forward via down - the "back, down, forward" part - but it's customary to call this movement "rolling back". "Rolling forward" is the movement "back, up, forward, down", like you would do in the Pilón movement, for example. Hope this disentangles the confusion a little bit.

Ok, with this definition both shoulders roll back (but I doubt this naming helps beginners when half of the "roll back" means roll forward).

There is this other mixed movement we used to do in the beginning of each class as warm-up where you roll one shoulder back and the other indeed forward. It can drive improvers nuts. It can be used as a nice afro-cuban shine when the music suits to it.

 

[Offbeat]

That is not exactly right, neither - both shoulder roll back, just in opposite timings, so to speak. We typically refer to rolling back when your shoulder makes a circle that passes the points "forward, up, back, down". Yes, there is a half a circle of of movement that technically rolls forward via down - the "back, down, forward" part - but it's customary to call this movement "rolling back". "Rolling forward" is the movement "back, up, forward, down", like you would do in the Pilón movement, for example. Hope this disentangles the confusion a little bit.

Yes this is right.

Simple example is isolation of single shoulder rolls. During the isolation drills, you roll the shoulder forward and then switch to roll it back.

 

[Offbeat]

There is this other mixed movement we used to do in the beginning of each class as warm-up where you roll one shoulder back and the other indeed forward.

Actually unless you are freak of a nature it is almost impossible to roll one shoulder forward while you try to roll other in the back direction. It is akin to tapping your head with one hand and drawing circles with other hand on over your stomach.

You can either roll both shoulders in the same direction. Or you can do the alternate. Roll one shoulder. Then stop and roll other shoulder in the opposite direction.

 

[desconocida]

Actually unless you are freak of a nature it is almost impossible to roll one shoulder forward while you try to roll other in the back direction. It is akin to tapping your head with one hand and drawing circles with other hand on over your stomach.

You can either roll both shoulders in the same direction. Or you can do the alternate. Roll one shoulder. Then stop and roll other shoulder in the opposite direction.

Oh, actually, this isn't such a complex move to learn - I'd say it's almost easier than learning to stroke your belly while tapping your head It all comes down to preparation (teaching students how to isolate individual joints) and breakdown. I'd say about a third of my students always get it (directionally) right at first attempt, rest follows at their own pace.

 

[desconocida]

Ok, with this definition both shoulders roll back (but I doubt this naming helps beginners when half of the "roll back" means roll forward).

There is this other mixed movement we used to do in the beginning of each class as warm-up where you roll one shoulder back and the other indeed forward. It can drive improvers nuts. It can be used as a nice afro-cuban shine when the music suits to it.

Yes, that's what usually follows the single joint isolations and this movement is part of the chest circles. Some find it easier to concentrate on the chest circles and only later realize they are indeed doing the opposite shoulder rotations.
I think there are no misunderstanding about what is forward and what is backward once the movement has been introduced properly. I guess because we need a bit more effort to initiate the upwards movement, whereas the downward part follows almost naturally, it's actually easy for our brains to go with this definition: your shoulder is forward and neutral, you pull it up and then back into neutral (first half of the circle) - that's backward. Your shoulder is back and neutral, you pull it up and then bring it front into neutral (first half of the forward circle) - that's forward. You complete the rest almost on autopilot (actually, that's one of the more challenging parts, to teach to consciously lower your shoulder, too). Never really had anyone being confused about that in any class.

 

[Offbeat]

Oh, actually, this isn't such a complex move to learn - I'd say it's almost easier than learning to stroke your belly while tapping your head It all comes down to preparation (teaching students how to isolate individual joints) and breakdown. I'd say about a third of my students always get it (directionally) right at first attempt, rest follows at their own pace.

I meant doing the opposite rolls simulataneously. Start slowly with up. Then one shoulder moves back and one forward at the same time. After that you will struggle to keep going

 

[Offbeat]

Maybe, @Offbeat , I'll be brave enough to send you, as an OG of the site, a vid with my musings so as to stop traffic jamming the threads.

sure.

 

[Bozoz]

I can only recall 1 vid I was wiling yo be brave enough to share. Ironically that was the trip where all but my Son teacher (she said my cadence is too salsa) my teachers said my hips move like a woman and not masculine enough, my shoulders need to roll (I never focused on that ever) and even a street dancer friend told me that some of the locals think I'm good for a yuma but that I need to use my shoulders more (then he demoed rolling). All of this is in solo and guapea mind you. So that was 6 teachers and a friend, all in the city where I someone's opinion on my dancing actually matters to me. One could forgive my relatively newfound obsession with trying to get it right.
But if rhe shoulders font roll, why was this thread in existence with videos of all these famous people showing shoulders rolling during basic? Lol.
Anyways, my original list is how I articulate the movement which is neither here nor there.
On an aside about the rumba, my teacher was very minimalistic. His philosophy is neutral-collapse. Knees forward, rigid waist (some movement is inevitable as a result of pushing catching, pushing back and collecting to push to the other side) but he is not a fan of excessive showy rumba. The movement is a result of collapsing from the lower ribcage up, with some lumbar rotation to lead the elbow up (for neck wins and arm raises). His sals movement looks almost nonexistent and perhaps internal.
Anyways I am clouding up this thread which was not my intention.
I think I will make a post of salsa dancers who's non hip movement I covet since my hip/lower torso is what I hate as my upper body is now fairly acceptable.
Maybe, @Offbeat , I'll be brave enough to send you, as an OG of the site, a vid with my musings so as to stop traffic jamming the threads.

You know what teachers dance the way you like, why not just ask them? It seems silly to ask it on a forum to immediately disregard the input from that forum.
It's also very silly to think salsa as something pure, there's elements of many dances. You even mentioned "cuban motion" (ballroom term), son and rumba, which historically are from very different traditions. Elements within salsa are being added, changed, celebrated, ignored and forgotten all the time.
Moreover the execution of the traditional dances has changed even in my short salsa career.

The biomechanics of bodymovement or dancing is the same. Franklin Diaz could demontrate any bodymovement you like better than most. I'm guessing any good reggaeton or hiphop teacher male or female could help you get the details just how you want them.

For my two cents: i bet your body proportions are different to your teachers. In order to look your best you'll probably need to add or remove something personal to the base version of the move.

Yoyoflow for example has a bit wider hips, which make his hip rolls look huge and dramatic. But he contrasts them with macho upper body positioning and minimizes his hip movement in the basic.


Tldr; you rockin the tizz too buddy? be nice, learning dancing takes time and practice.

 

[1derpalm]

You know what teachers dance the way you like, why not just ask them? It seems silly to ask it on a forum to immediately disregard the input from that forum.
It's also very silly to think salsa as something pure, there's elements of many dances. You even mentioned "cuban motion" (ballroom term), son and rumba, which historically are from very different traditions. Elements within salsa are being added, changed, celebrated, ignored and forgotten all the time.
Moreover the execution of the traditional dances has changed even in my short salsa career.

The biomechanics of bodymovement or dancing is the same. Franklin Diaz could demontrate any bodymovement you like better than most. I'm guessing any good reggaeton or hiphop teacher male or female could help you get the details just how you want them.

For my two cents: i bet your body proportions are different to your teachers. In order to look your best you'll probably need to add or remove something personal to the base version of the move.

Yoyoflow for example has a bit wider hips, which make his hip rolls look huge and dramatic. But he contrasts them with macho upper body positioning and minimizes his hip movement in the basic.


Tldr; you rockin the tizz too buddy? be nice, learning dancing takes time and practice.

I'm not asking. I'm observing. This thread is several years old. And I felt like resurrecting it. And frankly the teachers I have asked have given vague answers or I truly think they arent good at diagnosing other people.
Or they live-in cuba and have no phone atm, and j don't want to waste what little data they have on frivolity.
But I wouldn't be asking go a forum if I got even halfway satisfactory answers other than "practice" and "use the core" now, would I?