Basic step: shoulders rotating backwards or forwards?

chr said:
It made me curious, do you have a verifiable reference (DVD, youtube video) on this?

BTW, I have seen Al social dancing at 2007 SF Salsa Congress and I was a bit surprised that his dancing looked even cleaner and plainer than on his DVDs and performance videos. I was very impressed. In addition, I could not notice a great deal of permanent shoulder action,... but maybe he was a tired at that night ;)

Actually my instructors never really tried to improve my shoulder action during basic step. What I was consistently said is to focus on the upper body to follow my weight change which makes the torso shifting naturally left <-> right during the step, additionally the ribcage should follow the back <-> forward movement (subtly, naturally).

As to the shoulder movement, one of my instructors told that isolated forward rolling is very rarely needed, backward rolling is much more useful on occasion, but it is a good idea to practice both just in order to aquire better body awareness.
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Thanks, Al Espinoza styling dvd 1 is where the shoulder movement is mentioned as Al said it looks cooler than backwards rotation. Cannot post clip as on the DVD.

Great point about the upper body though.

Thanks
 
Smiling,

It probably depends on the context in which it is done, but I would say backward roll for the guy. I have Al's DVDs but probably not the one you refer to (have to check), as well as Oliver's and Seaon's. Seaon who has great style also says it should be a backward roll for the guy, and trying the forward roll feels totally bizarre to me. JMHO.
 
smiling28 said:
Thanks, Al Espinoza styling dvd 1 is where the shoulder movement is mentioned as Al said it looks cooler than backwards rotation. Cannot post clip as on the DVD.
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Thanks, I will check it out. I may have the DVD, but I am not sure.
 
Hey Smiling28,

I don't know whether you got your answer but here is a clip of Seaon where he talks about shoulder rolls - backwards. Was this the same context in which Al recommends a forward roll?

youtube.com/watch?v=1YZ3Nusv60Q&feature=related
 
Just my belated 2 cents,

I think they are all personal preferences.
In my experience, most instructors say backwards, which might be easier done than forward rolling for most people.
Some say not to roll shoulders, but to rather rotate ribcages.
Only person I can remember who preferred forward-rolling was Jason Myra, one of my former teachers.
Actually, he's the one who told me this was about the personal preference, he just liked how it looks.

You can find Jason's clips on youtube, but I cannot find a good one right now.
 
Hi Tamaki,

I would love to see the forward shoulder rolls, as it seems hard to imagine a scenario where it works, though, as you are saying, it does seem to work...

tamaki said:
Just my belated 2 cents,

I think they are all personal preferences.
In my experience, most instructors say backwards, which might be easier done than forward rolling for most people.
Some say not to roll shoulders, but to rather rotate ribcages.
Only person I can remember who preferred forward-rolling was Jason Myra, one of my former teachers.
Actually, he's the one who told me this was about the personal preference, he just liked how it looks.

You can find Jason's clips on youtube, but I cannot find a good one right now.
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I'm actually taking lesson now with an instructor who is a bit of a nazi about fine technical stuff like this and he has hammered me on the shoulder rotation. He is teaching the shoulder roll going backwards, which I can't do for my life.

Basically I'm used to doing it forwards because of the connection to the arms. Basically the roll goes with my hand as it crosses the center of my chest and the hand moves down. For instance, when I take a step on my left foot, my right hand is crossing my chest about to move downward, and my right shoulder is rolling forward kind of in the same general (kind of ) direction as the arms.

This is the part I don't understand. Your arm would have to cross your chest while the shoulder, goes back...for me that doesn't feel natural at all, unless the path of the hand matches.

Seems like it has to match the rotation in the hands (let's assume for now you have a exaggerated rotation of the hands that pairs your arm and shoulder movement). For instance I think of my hands as they "rub" my stomach, to be coming from top to bottom when they cross my chest and that's why maybe it feels more natural for the shoulder to match that downward path of the associated hand. Looking at the Oliver Pineda isolation video on youtube, it looks like his hands aren't necessarily going in a circular path, or if they are they are moving in the opposite direction of my hands (his right hand going counter clockwise, his left clock wise if you're facing him). For instance his hands are moving from his stomach up to his chest as his shoulder goes back. At least that's the way I can explain it. So depending on the direction of your hands, the shoulders will follow or vise versa. I don't know which one is correct...

Does that make sense to anyone, other than me? Maybe I'm off...?
 
I'm reviving this briefly as I havd been obsessed with trying to have the basic I want: more masculine and street vs performance team/congress.
Tl;Dr, I find that "rolling forward" has produced a squarer frame, more masculine and broad. Rolling back seems to be a bit slithery and feminine on my body.
When I say rolling forward, I mean my brain intends it, and it mitigates some of the feminine slither. Shoulders still do roll back, but at the same time as ribcage is moving, which looks natural and unforced (to me). It is also relatively dmsll movement, bug hhe action of thinking "roll forward" seems for me to have the arms projtect bigger, like an arrow head, and continue inertial like through mh torso as i move my ribcage. It is still a controlled movement, but controlling the timing via my lats more than forcing a bankroll. I have experimented and can be made smaller and stil be appealing. Ymmv, and my taste in a visual appealing leader goes against conventional taste on this sight or even in the (mostly linear branch) local scene.

I have been told by many teachers (almost all my havana teachers, male and female, and EddievEnrique from T.O/Portugul) that I have a ballroom feminine aesthetic that is unflattering. I have to agree.
My own personal goal is minimal hip movement, almost no hip rotation/lateral sway) and a broader upper body movement, with an at times imperceptible shoulder movement.
A few teachers say roll shoulders back, a few (including Tara the Dance Doctor) say men should be the percussion (no rolls), the partner should be the melody (flowy with rolls).
I dance xbody and cuban so I need a balance.

Back on track: I find Seon's Clip almost counter intuitive and quite feminine. If he didn't have that body and swagger, no one would even consider it. Don't get me wrong, he looks good but it's off to me.
Oliver social dancingni like. I am not his look in the finished version of the DVD. It seems contrived and unnatural, especially compared to his regular social dancing.
As for ALl, I got as far as the wig and fake teeth and ghosted.
This is an example if what I like, although it is larger in projection than mh ultimate goal
Note the minimal hips and shoukders appear to be doing an almost small forward roll, though not always.
I have posted a vid if him before but it was not met with much fanfare.
Obviously it's the dude in the hat.
 
I am not sure I like the words ‘rotation’ and ‘roll’ for the shoulders. Maybe there is some dispute about this or different philosophies. I haven’t watched the Pineda video yet and he is usually good.
 
1derpalm said:
I'm reviving this briefly as I havd been obsessed with trying to have the basic I want: more masculine and street vs performance team/congress.
Tl;Dr, I find that "rolling forward" has produced a squarer frame, more masculine and broad. Rolling back seems to be a bit slithery and feminine on my body.
When I say rolling forward, I mean my brain intends it, and it mitigates some of the feminine slither. Shoulders still do roll back, but at the same time as ribcage is moving, which looks natural and unforced (to me). It is also relatively dmsll movement, bug hhe action of thinking "roll forward" seems for me to have the arms projtect bigger, like an arrow head, and continue inertial like through mh torso as i move my ribcage. It is still a controlled movement, but controlling the timing via my lats more than forcing a bankroll. I have experimented and can be made smaller and stil be appealing. Ymmv, and my taste in a visual appealing leader goes against conventional taste on this sight or even in the (mostly linear branch) local scene.

I have been told by many teachers (almost all my havana teachers, male and female, and EddievEnrique from T.O/Portugul) that I have a ballroom feminine aesthetic that is unflattering. I have to agree.
My own personal goal is minimal hip movement, almost no hip rotation/lateral sway) and a broader upper body movement, with an at times imperceptible shoulder movement.
A few teachers say roll shoulders back, a few (including Tara the Dance Doctor) say men should be the percussion (no rolls), the partner should be the melody (flowy with rolls).
I dance xbody and cuban so I need a balance.

Back on track: I find Seon's Clip almost counter intuitive and quite feminine. If he didn't have that body and swagger, no one would even consider it. Don't get me wrong, he looks good but it's off to me.
Oliver social dancingni like. I am not his look in the finished version of the DVD. It seems contrived and unnatural, especially compared to his regular social dancing.
As for ALl, I got as far as the wig and fake teeth and ghosted.
This is an example if what I like, although it is larger in projection than mh ultimate goal
Note the minimal hips and shoukders appear to be doing an almost small forward roll, though not always.
I have posted a vid if him before but it was not met with much fanfare.
Obviously it's the dude in the hat.
Click to expand...
Technically, there is no shoulder rolling of any kind in the basic, if you are rolling the shoulder anywhere, that means you are explicitly introducing this movement starting from your shoulder - which you can do as a styling element, sure - but it isn't part of your stepping and thus your basic.
What is, however, part of your stepping, is your SHOULDER BLADES rotating around your spine (right foot placed on the ground, right shoulder blade forward, left back, with a slight delay, foot and shoulder do not move exactly simultaneously), and that movement is naturally followed by your entire torso and, naturally, your shoulder, which, depending on your joint anatomy, mobility, personal stylistic preference, and many other factors, can leave the appearance of a roll. But again, if you isolate your shoulder and rotate it anywhere - forward or backward - you probably look like your joints are dissociated and you're doing too much (and looking "ballroom-y" or effeminate is very closely related to this kind of movement). The engine is your back muscles and your core, everything else just follows. Frankly, I am trying to picture how on earth an organic rotation forward could be incorporated into a basic, and I am failing to see it - that's completely counterintuitive to Cuban motion. As always, I'd recommend Franklin Diaz for a correct Cuban motion and stepping breakdown, but as I suspect he's not exactly your cup of tea, have a look at this guy's account: https://www.instagram.com/nick.antsukhsky/ - he is really, really good in breaking down movement into tiny chunks that are more palatable. Once you get the movement right, working on making it minimal - to a point of almost invisible, which I assume you like as a more "tough" or "street" appearance, is the next step. But stepping and body movement IS indeed always the same - it's just about how big of an amplitude you allow the movement to make. Here, for instance: very different appearance from Franklin's, but I assure you, same technique
 
I'll let my teachers who live and grew up where the dance was created and oliver Pineda that they are wrong ;P.

To me that whole statement was just semantics. You use your shoulder nodes, the shoulders roll. You roll your shoukders. Some do, and some don't.
Most of my teacher ( cbaan onez) say roll my shoulders. They mean with the shoukder blades. And at the correct time in the kinetic chain so it looks natural.
And they move nothing like Franklin Diaz.
sunsoul said:
I am not sure I like the words ‘rotation’ and ‘roll’ for the shoulders. Maybe there is some dispute about this or different philosophies. I haven’t watched the Pineda video yet and he is usually good.
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I find this is a wierd north American eurocentric thing. Like " don't say push or pull. Never push or pull". I told a teacher about this and she lead ne through something, lighter than a lot of people who say "never push or pull". And then she said "I'm pushing you. What do you expect me to say". You push. Awheel chair but it is a smooth ride. You pull boat to the dock with rope and it is soft and smooth. It's how you do it that matters. You push by using your legs and moving with the body. You pull by moving your core the opposite direction. Semantics.
 
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desconocida said:
Technically, there is no shoulder rolling of any kind in the basic, if you are rolling the shoulder anywhere, that means you are explicitly introducing this movement starting from your shoulder - which you can do as a styling element, sure - but it isn't part of your stepping and thus your basic.
What is, however, part of your stepping, is your SHOULDER BLADES rotating around your spine (right foot placed on the ground, right shoulder blade forward, left back, with a slight delay, foot and shoulder do not move exactly simultaneously), and that movement is naturally followed by your entire torso and, naturally, your shoulder, which, depending on your joint anatomy, mobility, personal stylistic preference, and many other factors, can leave the appearance of a roll. But again, if you isolate your shoulder and rotate it anywhere - forward or backward - you probably look like your joints are dissociated and you're doing too much (and looking "ballroom-y" or effeminate is very closely related to this kind of movement). The engine is your back muscles and your core, everything else just follows. Frankly, I am trying to picture how on earth an organic rotation forward could be incorporated into a basic, and I am failing to see it - that's completely counterintuitive to Cuban motion. As always, I'd recommend Franklin Diaz for a correct Cuban motion and stepping breakdown, but as I suspect he's not exactly your cup of tea, have a look at this guy's account: https://www.instagram.com/nick.antsukhsky/ - he is really, really good in breaking down movement into tiny chunks that are more palatable. Once you get the movement right, working on making it minimal - to a point of almost invisible, which I assume you like as a more "tough" or "street" appearance, is the next step. But stepping and body movement IS indeed always the same - it's just about how big of an amplitude you allow the movement to make. Here, for instance: very different appearance from Franklin's, but I assure you, same technique
Click to expand...
I don't like Franklin duaz aesthetic,. Effeminate as well, and not my cup of tea with his confusing technical profundity.

FYI it's my hip that are the issue, which I suspect is weak stabilizers, as well as how deep i step into the ground and as stated, i want almost zero hip sway..
Also your blind diagnosis is incorrect, as I typed the "forward roll" comment shortly after the experiment, which had almost a direct impact on my lower body.
Also I used "" AND stated it was more about how my brain perceived the intentention which made the difference. I had no technical train for the first 3 years znd than overvtdchnical explanations that Made me move like i shat my pants.

Also like I like the guy in the clip I posted to FD any day of the week. As I said.. I want street masculine, not performance.
Thd clip you posted was cool, but I won't be doing that anytime soon, and even if I could, not on the dance floor in front of my partner.
 
But still appreciate the detailed reposnse. However I do donall of that. Perhaps hownj articulate the description is not what works for me. And I most certainly use my back, not my shoulder.
 
That came put. ATad more aggressive than intentes. Frustrating work day.
on an aside I also believe it is my kinetic changing order out of whack (I suspect that I am moving my torso to early whichnis un centering me. Also perhaps pushing my upper torso movements to their maximum range. Some people say i look fine or good, what ever. I don't like it.
 
If someone is actively thinking about moving isolated body parts in dance, it is not going to look good.
If someone feels that they are too stiff on the dance floor there is an approach to manage that: before dancing that night - just walk very loosely - let any joint, arm, hip etc move wherever it wants to go. Just don't let the core (or torso) do that. Once one has that "loose" feeling: approach the dance floor - dance while keeping that loose feeling. Obviously as a lead one has to have some tension in the arms but that is very minor.
 
I should say for myself it is only during the solo. I don't move much other than ribcage and if dancing cuban the right elbow goes up as well (in proper kinetic order) as per my teachers. This is have no problem woth. But lately been working on the nonhips approach as I don't like not having the option to dial it up or down, meaning I don't have control of my body. And just to be clear... I step k the bals, I do not in any way move my hips consciously, I just seem to have hyper loose hip joints. If I stay relaxed and dance fast, even more. I have been told that ins also I have bachata hips, and in bachata I have no hips. I dunno. The faster I step, the stiller my upper body and the hios still go. Not big mind you, but I want none. Maybe I I terpreted soft knee as just tht. Soft oshocks. When it seems to be bend/flexed (old Terrence post)? I Dumont. I hate it.
My statement was based on the previous discussions in this thread... if I think about rolling them back like seon, very girly imo, and they are going up and back as he is stepping forward. To me this going the wrong way in the chain. Oliver looks good but his DVD finished product looks extremely contrived and not appealing and it applies here because he is the standard bearer it seems. And he very much rolls his shoulders and says rol your shoulders. So whe I say I roll them forward, it isn't and active roll in the way you think, but focus o the motion just after the torso rotatation ribcage movement, verses on the other shoulder rolling back . Yes... using my blades. The action is tstill the same, they rol back when the ribcage does, but on its own as my elbow moves forward, on its own without me trying, vs me actively trti to roll them back. or some reason It seems to very slightly mitigate the feminine look.

Like, let's just assume we are referring to moving it int he proper order of rhe chain, not as a forced add on.
 
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1derpalm said:
I find this is a wierd north American eurocentric thing. Like " don't say push or pull. Never push or pull". I told a teacher about this and she lead ne through something, lighter than a lot of people who say "never push or pull". And then she said "I'm pushing you. What do you expect me to say". You push. Awheel chair but it is a smooth ride. You pull boat to the dock with rope and it is soft and smooth. It's how you do it that matters. You push by using your legs and moving with the body. You pull by moving your core the opposite direction. Semantics.
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Generally sematics as understood by those fluent in English and those not can cause a difference of opinion. Most dance teachers including ballroom will say no push and pull. Usually they are refering to either arm lead or excessive force where you literally move the partner. Analogy and more nuanced way would be to say do not push a shopping cart like you are pushing a fridge.

I think I get a picture of what you meant in fhe original post about "Shoulders still do roll back, but at the same time as ribcage is moving, which looks natural and unforced (to me)" That indeed is the more natural and correct way for unforced cuban motion when dancing basic or getting that cuban/Salsa dancing grove in your upper body. A lot of people dance without any movement in their upper body. But when you have it, you can lead even a beginner follower who intuitively are able to step to the rhythm (my experience). Though many instructors when teaching how to incorporate cuban motion in the basic might incorrectly say to roll the ribcage, it is more like 80% forward and back movement and 20% rolling. @desconocida is right that there is no shoulder roll during basic but whatever shoulders move is the result of cuban motion.

Closest thing I would say if you were to isolate, it is like doing slow shimmy with your ribcage but lift the ribcage side up when going back. Which is classical way any rolling is broken down when teaching.

For styling and accepting there are many things we do including explicitly rolling shoulders that we don't do when dancing basic. It is a movement done with deliberate intention rather than natural. It is like how beginners will deliberately try to move their hips. Because they are how good dancer's seem to move and want to replicate it.

I seen a couple of your videos you had posted but don't see your frame as femine nor your movements. Since multiple teaches said so to you, may be you look like that when demonstrating broken down movement to them. Did they say that after dancing with you?

Also making your movements a bit sharper than how you are doing now can give you that masculine aesthetics. That could mean a less smooth move for you.

Seaon danced both as a follower and as a masculine. I seen a few of his teaching video clips where some of his movement do seem a bit femine. In reality he was nothing like it. He was very masculine dancer when it came to body movement and had explosive movements. He could also be able to do femine styling and make it look better than most women I seen. In his teaching he would also break down every movement to its basics components and then put it back together. He paid extreme attention to the details of the movement including how you used your shape your fingers for a man vs a woman. There was one guy in the class who was extremely good with body movement and styling. If you saw him practice, it would look femine. But when he danced it wouldn't.

Personally from the video you posted, I am not fan of the movent of guy in the hat. I seen cuban dancers do the similar kind of movement that is executed more smoothly and is still sharp while it looks natural and flowing seamlessly without looking femine.

I think you have taken rumba classes when in Cuba. Rumba is a good example of how a man's movements are taught/done and how ladies' are done. There is a contrast.
 
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