Richie Blondet
Son Montuno
I read with great interest some of the responses and exchanges in the Cuban Salsa - You Like It? thread. Sadly, it got locked before I had an opportunity to partake in the conversation.
Moderators, if renewing this topic is out of order, just delete it. I'm hoping that the reasons the original thread got locked won't surface on this new thread. I simply found some of the commentary interesting and wanted to add to the discussion. In particular, respond to Myst, as well as some of the others.
Myst wrote:
What you described Cachao as doing isn't altogether accurate. If you're referring to the Danzon composition "Mambo," then that credit goes to his brother "Macho" [Orestes Lopez] who wrote the tune. Also, an entire song was not established using this form inspired by Arsenio. The piece is a Danzon. Which included the 'Mambo' section that is typical of all Danzones. The "Afro" part of the song structure. While the song title escapes me for the moment, it was the pianist Bebo Valdes who actually launched the first Danzon-Mambo before the Lopez Brothers did so with Arcano y sus Maravillas. I know that the books state otherwise and all of the scholars and historians have cited Cachao. But we have the luxury of retrospect by way of the discographies and via the oral history provided by Bebo prior to his passing. Orestes Lopez' claim to fame is really that he is the fist to use the term "Mambo" in a composition.
I would also venture to say that, based solely upon the music itself, it is also debatable that "Mambo" as a genre starts with Perez Prado. I know you didn't express this in your post, but I just wanted to clarify it in case anyone interpreted it that way. I totally agree with you that 'Mambo' as a musical genre or a dance, had no viable audience in Cuba. In fact, the several musicians who were dabbling and experimenting with it, were rejected. [Including Prado who was wallowing away at the Casino De La Playa and later made his way to NYC and then onto Mexico.] A 1967 interview with Arsenio Rodriguez describes him expressing how the public in Cuba reacted to both his innovations [such as expanding the sexteto-septeto (traditional conjuntos of the period), adding the tumbadora drum and piano, with multiple brass], but his brand of music as well. They made fun of him and called him crazy. If anything, Arsenio should be credited with what you cited "Cachao" as having done. Creating entire songs derived from his own concept [Diablo/Mambo]. An example of this would be his composition: "Baila Simon."
That Perez Prado popularized "Mambo," the term, is certainly a fact. Musically speaking, there is still a technicality or more that may put a hole in giving Prado the ultimate credit. Again, going back to the overall discography of Cuba and New York specifically, we have bands who are interpreting what one could regard as proto-mambos from 1944-1946. Before Prado launches his orchestra and scores his Mambo success in 1947 in Mexico City, USA and beyond. You had musicians in Cuba such as Rene Hernandez, Julio Cuevas and Bebo Valdes, who were experimenting and recording such proto-Mambos. One of the closest sounds to what became the NY Mambo style of the 1950s, could be heard in the recordings by Jose Curbelo and his Orchestra, circa 1946-'47. It isn't coincidence that Tito Puente is the arranger on several of Curbelo's songs. Only the media in the USA referred to Curbelo's music as RHUMBA and not "Mambo." The 'Rhumba or Rumba [not to be confused with the folkloric version] being a similar catch all term in the 1930s-1940s, as "Salsa" became in the 1960s to the present day. I would also cite Pupi Campo's Orchestra, which, in the late 1940s, also featured Puente, not only as a member, but as its musical director. Prado's orchestral sound was certainly distinct, but the concept he was following wasn't radical by any means as there are strains of it all throughout the decade of the 1940s in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the United States and, of course, Mexico.
It's kind of like Timba and Songo. While they both have their distinct characteristics, one could *argue* that those early Timba bands like NG La Banda or Manolin, Paulito, etc were also interpreting a kind of Songo-plus. And on the reverse end, Los Van Van were producing what one could argue were proto-Timbas. The labeling or tags we use to identify and associate a sound or band has a tendency to marginalize music in a way where there are no real parameters. Save for the ones we create.
I also want to stress that neither Arsenio and, especially, "Cachao," did not popularize 'Mambo' in the United States. Arsenio's musical style and approach was never embraced in NYC and had more of an impact on local musicians, both in the Caribbean, South & North America, than on the public who resided in all of those locations. "Cachao" does not become a full time orchestra leader until the 1990s, when Andy Garcia re-introduces him to the public via a documentary and several CD productions. Prior to this he had been a sideman, leading informal sessions, both live and recorded. When he relocated to NYC, he is a sideman and occasionally works at a place called the Liborio cabaret in midtown Manhattan leading a trio. [There are flyers to support this]. Occasionally, Candido Camero would sit in as a guest.
The band leaders who popularized "Mambo" in both a generic form [anyone known to interpret Cuban oriented music was automatically doing Mambo. The term itself also transformed into a catch all phrase] and an actual musical style associated with the U.S., early on, were the Big Three, and people like Prado, Cugat [inadvertently], Joe Loco, Alfredito [Levy], Noro Morales, Miguelito Valdes, Alberto Iznaga, La Playa Sextet, Jose Curbelo, Cal Tjader, Cesar Concepcion, Anselmo Sacassas, Luis Varona, Rene Bloch, and Pete Terrace.
Yes... but it also has its other significances. Based on people's perceptions. It's a marketing term, but it doesn't become such a thing lest it was already in use by the people. That term had been floating around for some time prior to record companies gaining hold of it. And was being used in the context it is used today. But "Salsa" is also perceived as a musical genre. There is or was a category in the U.S. Grammy Award division. Retail stores stocked or stock music product under that name. Musicians and their band leaders have adopted the term and identify it almost as if it were a musical genre. Again, I agree, it's just a name. But we also have to consider the realities of how that term is perceived by a large segment of society. The same way that Timba or Charanga are just words and not actual rhythmical forms. Nevertheless, they are perceived to be styles and even genres unto themselves [though they are not].
At one point in time, it could be argued that "Salsa" was a specific format. The overblown conjuntos of multiple trumpets and, especially, multiple trombones, begins in the NYC scene. It had its unique characteristics the way Charanga or Timba or Big Band Mambo has its specific characteristics that make them stand out. But as the years have gone by, the argument of it being a format, I would say, no longer holds water.
This is it for now, but I noticed some other posts I wanted to reply to and when I have an opportunity will attempt to do so on this thread...
Richie
Moderators, if renewing this topic is out of order, just delete it. I'm hoping that the reasons the original thread got locked won't surface on this new thread. I simply found some of the commentary interesting and wanted to add to the discussion. In particular, respond to Myst, as well as some of the others.
Myst wrote:
What you described Cachao as doing isn't altogether accurate. If you're referring to the Danzon composition "Mambo," then that credit goes to his brother "Macho" [Orestes Lopez] who wrote the tune. Also, an entire song was not established using this form inspired by Arsenio. The piece is a Danzon. Which included the 'Mambo' section that is typical of all Danzones. The "Afro" part of the song structure. While the song title escapes me for the moment, it was the pianist Bebo Valdes who actually launched the first Danzon-Mambo before the Lopez Brothers did so with Arcano y sus Maravillas. I know that the books state otherwise and all of the scholars and historians have cited Cachao. But we have the luxury of retrospect by way of the discographies and via the oral history provided by Bebo prior to his passing. Orestes Lopez' claim to fame is really that he is the fist to use the term "Mambo" in a composition.
I would also venture to say that, based solely upon the music itself, it is also debatable that "Mambo" as a genre starts with Perez Prado. I know you didn't express this in your post, but I just wanted to clarify it in case anyone interpreted it that way. I totally agree with you that 'Mambo' as a musical genre or a dance, had no viable audience in Cuba. In fact, the several musicians who were dabbling and experimenting with it, were rejected. [Including Prado who was wallowing away at the Casino De La Playa and later made his way to NYC and then onto Mexico.] A 1967 interview with Arsenio Rodriguez describes him expressing how the public in Cuba reacted to both his innovations [such as expanding the sexteto-septeto (traditional conjuntos of the period), adding the tumbadora drum and piano, with multiple brass], but his brand of music as well. They made fun of him and called him crazy. If anything, Arsenio should be credited with what you cited "Cachao" as having done. Creating entire songs derived from his own concept [Diablo/Mambo]. An example of this would be his composition: "Baila Simon."
That Perez Prado popularized "Mambo," the term, is certainly a fact. Musically speaking, there is still a technicality or more that may put a hole in giving Prado the ultimate credit. Again, going back to the overall discography of Cuba and New York specifically, we have bands who are interpreting what one could regard as proto-mambos from 1944-1946. Before Prado launches his orchestra and scores his Mambo success in 1947 in Mexico City, USA and beyond. You had musicians in Cuba such as Rene Hernandez, Julio Cuevas and Bebo Valdes, who were experimenting and recording such proto-Mambos. One of the closest sounds to what became the NY Mambo style of the 1950s, could be heard in the recordings by Jose Curbelo and his Orchestra, circa 1946-'47. It isn't coincidence that Tito Puente is the arranger on several of Curbelo's songs. Only the media in the USA referred to Curbelo's music as RHUMBA and not "Mambo." The 'Rhumba or Rumba [not to be confused with the folkloric version] being a similar catch all term in the 1930s-1940s, as "Salsa" became in the 1960s to the present day. I would also cite Pupi Campo's Orchestra, which, in the late 1940s, also featured Puente, not only as a member, but as its musical director. Prado's orchestral sound was certainly distinct, but the concept he was following wasn't radical by any means as there are strains of it all throughout the decade of the 1940s in Cuba, Puerto Rico, the United States and, of course, Mexico.
It's kind of like Timba and Songo. While they both have their distinct characteristics, one could *argue* that those early Timba bands like NG La Banda or Manolin, Paulito, etc were also interpreting a kind of Songo-plus. And on the reverse end, Los Van Van were producing what one could argue were proto-Timbas. The labeling or tags we use to identify and associate a sound or band has a tendency to marginalize music in a way where there are no real parameters. Save for the ones we create.
I also want to stress that neither Arsenio and, especially, "Cachao," did not popularize 'Mambo' in the United States. Arsenio's musical style and approach was never embraced in NYC and had more of an impact on local musicians, both in the Caribbean, South & North America, than on the public who resided in all of those locations. "Cachao" does not become a full time orchestra leader until the 1990s, when Andy Garcia re-introduces him to the public via a documentary and several CD productions. Prior to this he had been a sideman, leading informal sessions, both live and recorded. When he relocated to NYC, he is a sideman and occasionally works at a place called the Liborio cabaret in midtown Manhattan leading a trio. [There are flyers to support this]. Occasionally, Candido Camero would sit in as a guest.
The band leaders who popularized "Mambo" in both a generic form [anyone known to interpret Cuban oriented music was automatically doing Mambo. The term itself also transformed into a catch all phrase] and an actual musical style associated with the U.S., early on, were the Big Three, and people like Prado, Cugat [inadvertently], Joe Loco, Alfredito [Levy], Noro Morales, Miguelito Valdes, Alberto Iznaga, La Playa Sextet, Jose Curbelo, Cal Tjader, Cesar Concepcion, Anselmo Sacassas, Luis Varona, Rene Bloch, and Pete Terrace.
Yes... but it also has its other significances. Based on people's perceptions. It's a marketing term, but it doesn't become such a thing lest it was already in use by the people. That term had been floating around for some time prior to record companies gaining hold of it. And was being used in the context it is used today. But "Salsa" is also perceived as a musical genre. There is or was a category in the U.S. Grammy Award division. Retail stores stocked or stock music product under that name. Musicians and their band leaders have adopted the term and identify it almost as if it were a musical genre. Again, I agree, it's just a name. But we also have to consider the realities of how that term is perceived by a large segment of society. The same way that Timba or Charanga are just words and not actual rhythmical forms. Nevertheless, they are perceived to be styles and even genres unto themselves [though they are not].
At one point in time, it could be argued that "Salsa" was a specific format. The overblown conjuntos of multiple trumpets and, especially, multiple trombones, begins in the NYC scene. It had its unique characteristics the way Charanga or Timba or Big Band Mambo has its specific characteristics that make them stand out. But as the years have gone by, the argument of it being a format, I would say, no longer holds water.
This is it for now, but I noticed some other posts I wanted to reply to and when I have an opportunity will attempt to do so on this thread...
Richie
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