American Jazz influence in Son Montuno?

charafiend said:
Here's a recording from the 1930 from Sexteto Munamar. You can hear the leading voice speaking in English what sounds to be sexual references.

Listen at 2:43

Would you say this could be some reflection of Blues influence?

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Right off the bat, you can hear the U.S. influences on the trumpet phrasing.

BTW-That song's melody comes off a bit sounding like the anti-vietnam war theme song 'Alice's Restaurant.'

:D
 
Richie Blondet said:
Right off the bat, you can hear the U.S. influences on the trumpet phrasing.

BTW-That song's melody comes off a bit sounding like the anti-vietnam war theme song 'Alice's Restaurant.'

:D
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Yes, a lot of the Sexteto recordings from the 1920s and 30s were recorded in NYC at Columbia studios.

I'm not saying that this is any proof of immense influence of American music, but it shows you that Cuban musicians had exposure to American music, so the question of there being any influence from the US isn't far fetched.
 
charafiend said:
Yes, a lot of the Sexteto recordings from the 1920s and 30s were recorded in NYC at Columbia studios.

I'm not saying that this is any proof of immense influence of American music, but it shows you that Cuban musicians had exposure to American music, so the question of there being any influence from the US isn't far fetched.
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Well Cuba is right next to America. :) And rather close to one of the epicenters of blues. The singing was like oldest blues blues i've heard. The work songs, I assume.

P.S. And by America I mean no US of A, but continent and icelands in Carribean. All the mixture there was and is crosspollinating, excuse my french.
 
I was thinking about something this morning... in another thread timberamayor referred to I IV V chords.. so this made me think about the fact that I IV V is the basic chord progression of Son Montuno, and since we've touched on Blues influence in early 20th century Cuban music in this thread, what are the chords used in Blues? I IV V , of course. It's all starting to connect together for me. The I IV V pattern occurs over a much shorter span ( usually two bars ) as opposed to the basic 12 bar Blues form, but there is something to this, I think.
 
I think if you dug into it, you would find the melodic and harmonic roots of son and son montuno in Europe, not Africa. So a connection between son (montuno) and blues is probably a stretch.

What IS interesting is the connection between the AAB 12 bar form of blues and the rhythm/songs for Babalu-Aye.
 
AfroCubanPerWor said:
I think if you dug into it, you would find the melodic and harmonic roots of son and son montuno in Europe, not Africa. So a connection between son (montuno) and blues is probably a stretch.

What IS interesting is the connection between the AAB 12 bar form of blues and the rhythm/songs for Babalu-Aye.
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I'm sure you're right... but while I IV V and other common harmonic devices in western music came out of J.S. Bach ( and others ), how about the flatted fifth and pentatonic "blues scale" elements in the Blues? You hear a lot of that in Latin music, you hear it in Mambo... and Papo Lucca, for one, has a trumpet moña in the song Yare that is pure Blues.
 
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groovetpt said:
I'm sure you're right... but while I IV V and other common harmonic devices in western music came out of J.S. Bach ( and others ), how about the flatted fifth and pentatonic "blues scale" elements in the Blues? You hear a lot of that in Latin music, you hear it in Mambo... and Papo Lucca, for one, has a trumpet moña in the song Yare that is pure Blues.
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New Orleans is a Caribbean port city. :)
 
groovetpt said:
Yes, the year was 1977, I believe.
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You better spell out the reference, I'm not that old. :)

But I remember a world music class: professor sitting with his ipad and grinning: "so where is this music coming from?" (sounds like pentatonic), someone - "mississippi", he - "china", next track somewhere from africa, then ireland and so on. :)
 
Bobby McFerrin has a TedTalk showing just how instinctive pentatonic scale is. Pretty interesting if you haven't seen it.

Oh . . . and my musicology professor used a record player. Young whippersnappers.
 
Smejmoon said:
You better spell out the reference, I'm not that old.
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I was studying Jazz at Berklee in '77. Pentatonic was King of All Scales. Dorian was Heir Apparent. Blue Train was our Anthem. :D

Hey seriously though, I remember doing a paper showing how Stravinsky used hip "Coltrane-esque" pentatonic licks in Histoire du Soldat, which was composed in 1919.

AfroCubanPerWor said:
Oh . . . and my musicology professor used a record player.
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Yeah, so did we. Still have my Blue Train LP, and a turntable to play it on.
 
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Richie Blondet said:
Completely and totally disagree...
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Richie, which statement(s) do you disagree with? The one about European harmonic / melodic influence? The connection between Blues and Son? Both?

I think the first statement about European harmonic roots can not be denied ( melodic influence could be much more debatable ). Bach's fugue's had all of the common western harmonic devices used in Latin music ( and Jazz, and Pop, and Classical, and Rock, and on and on ). How many times have we heard the circle of fifths ( Autumn Leaves ) progression used in Salsa, Pop, Jazz, etc.?
 
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The Son de Oriente and Son Montuno are based on Musica Guajira. Music Guajira or the Cuban Guajira is based on old Spanish melodies, mainly old Andalusian melodies and songs which still can be found in the Flamenco style called Guajira. The Son de Oriente constains still Andalusian melodic and harmonic structures on purpose, or very old Flamenco melodic and harmonic structures, because, the old soneros do not want to forget where they came from......

More to come...
Edsel
 
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