American Jazz influence in Son Montuno?

[charafiend]

Does the horn section of this recording resemble that of American Jazz?

 

[Smejmoon]

Well I think Arsenio Rodriguez was part of the American Jazz, when this was recorded?

 

[charafiend]

Well I think Arsenio Rodriguez was part of the American Jazz, when this was recorded?

Late 40s in Cuba.

 

[groovetpt]

Does the horn section of this recording resemble that of American Jazz?

Hmmmm... interesting question. I like the music very much, but no, the horn section does not sound like American Jazz to me. Short staccato notes by the trumpets ( like in the beginning ) and those sixteenth note arpeggios at 1:22 - 1:29 -- very tipico to my ears.

I think the main difference is the "feel" that is dictated by the respective rhythm sections -- the percussion in Cuban music and the drummer in Jazz, in particular. In Cuban ( and Latin music in general ) horns generally play very clean and crisp, on top of the beat and eighth notes are played evenly, because that is how the percussion is playing. American jazz, with the 4/4 "swing" element laid down by the drummer , horns generally play longer ( "legato" ) notes with an eighth note triplet undercurrent to the feel. Even when the horns in the Aresenio song are playing legato eighth notes at 1:51- 2:09 they are still playing them even, not with a triplet feel like in Jazz.

This is not to say that there was not extensive exchange and influence between Cuban and American Jazz... all of that is well documented.

Contrast the Arsenio song with something from Count Basie in 1941 and maybe that can explain better what I'm thinking. They also play very clean, but a bit more slippery, with that "swing" feel, if you get what I mean.

That said, the term "Jazz" has come to connotate a wide spectrum of musical elements, so maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I am thinking of the time period in question ( 1940's ).

 

[charafiend]

Hmmmm... interesting question. I like the music very much, but no, the horn section does not sound like American Jazz to me. Short staccato notes by the trumpets ( like in the beginning ) and those sixteenth note arpeggios at 1:22 - 1:29 -- very tipico to my ears.

I think the main difference is the "feel" that is dictated by the respective rhythm sections -- the percussion in Cuban music and the drummer in Jazz, in particular. In Cuban ( and Latin music in general ) horns generally play very clean and crisp, on top of the beat and eighth notes are played evenly, because that is how the percussion is playing. American jazz, with the 4/4 "swing" element laid down by the drummer , horns generally play longer ( "legato" ) notes with an eighth note triplet undercurrent to the feel. Even when the horns in the Aresenio song are playing legato eighth notes at 1:51- 2:09 they are still playing them even, not with a triplet feel like in Jazz.

This is not to say that there was not extensive exchange and influence between Cuban and American Jazz... all of that is well documented.

Contrast the Arsenio song with something from Count Basie in 1941 and maybe that can explain better what I'm thinking. They also play very clean, but a bit more slippery, with that "swing" feel, if you get what I mean.

That said, the term "Jazz" has come to connotate a wide spectrum of musical elements, so maybe I'm splitting hairs here, but I am thinking of the time period in question ( 1940's ).

Interesting observation

Here's a recording of Arsenio incorporating Swing.

 

[groovetpt]

Interesting observation

Here's a recording of Arsenio incorporating Swing.

Another great recording by Arsenio, but I'm sorry, this is not "swing", not in the Jazz sense. They are playing even eighth notes. Jazz swing has that eighth note triplet feel to it.

The term "swing" is often used in Salsa, Son, Timba, even Merengue... implying a nice groove and feel, danceability, etc.

 

[charafiend]

Another great recording by Arsenio, but I'm sorry, this is not "swing", not in the Jazz sense. They are playing even eighth notes. Jazz swing has that eighth note triplet feel to it.

The term "swing" is often used in Salsa, Son, Timba, even Merengue... implying a nice groove and feel, danceability, etc.

So we can come to consensus that Jazz has no influence on Son.

I think this is the case.

 

[groovetpt]

So we can come to consensus that Jazz has no influence on Son.

I never said that, but I don't really hear the heavy Jazz influence in Son -- I think of Son as a uniquely Cuban style of music. There certainly would be some Jazz influence in the instrumental improvisations by horn players ( like Chocolate Armenteros ) and tres players, but in general I don't really sense the Jazz influence in Son.

However, I ( and many many other folks ) *DO* agree that there has been considerable Jazz influence ( and vice versa ) in other forms of Latin music, most notably Mambo, Salsa, Timba and even Merengue. There is no doubt of this.

And maybe Richie or someone else will come along and show us that Son had strong Jazz influence, in which case I will learn some things I didn't know before.

Very interesting topic for discussion... thanks for bringing this up. I hope some others will chime in.

 

[AfroCubanPerWor]

I like comment that Arsenio was part of American swing. He lived in NYC off and on (and Tampa) and surely played non-Cuban music now and then.

I'm still floored by Scott Joplin and how piano montunos seem to come straight out of him.

 

[groovetpt]

I like comment that Arsenio was part of American swing. He lived in NYC off and on (and Tampa) and surely played non-Cuban music now and then.

I'm still floored by Scott Joplin and how piano montunos seem to come straight out of him.

I couldn't agree with you more, Curtis... but back to the OP, does Besarte Quisiera sound like jazz to you?

 

[tallpaul]

<Aside>

Another great recording by Arsenio, but I'm sorry, this is not "swing", not in the Jazz sense. They are playing even eighth notes. Jazz swing has that eighth note triplet feel to it.

Hey groovetpt - have you ever come across any Salsa tunes that DO use jazz swing i.e. eighth note triplets?

I heard a salsa dura track like that played by a DJ one time - I didn't think to ask the DJ for the name of the track at the time, which is a shame, because it was great fun to dance to!
</Aside>

Am also interested in the extent of Arsenio's jazz influences, if people have further thoughts to comment. I'm hearing jazz harmonies in the vocal and horn arrangements of that song - but maybe these are older influences that the 1940s swing jazz era? (p.s. Is Besarte Quisiera a Son Montuno? Sounds like Danzon to me...)

 

[groovetpt]

<Aside>
Hey groovetpt - have you ever come across any Salsa tunes that DO use jazz swing i.e. eighth note triplets?

I heard a salsa dura track like that played by a DJ one time - I didn't think to ask the DJ for the name of the track at the time, which is a shame, because it was great fun to dance to!
</Aside>

I think I've heard Papo Lucca, Roberto Roena, Richie Ray and Bobby Cruz and others do this at times but can't think of anything off the top of my head.

Am also interested in the extent of Arsenio's jazz influences, if people have further thoughts to comment. I'm hearing jazz harmonies in the vocal and horn arrangements of that song - but maybe these are older influences that the 1940s swing jazz era? (p.s. Is Besarte Quisiera a Son Montuno? Sounds like Danzon to me...)

Great point. I'm sure you must be right about the harmonic influences from Jazz. Besarte is pretty straight ahead diatonic harmony -- nothing like what the bebop players were doing at that time -- but this was almost 70 years ago, so it must have sounded very hip at the time.

I think one of the best Salsa artists to incorporate jazz harmonies is Luis Perico Ortiz, and of course Papo Lucca. There are many others.

 

[tallpaul]

I'm sure you must be right about the harmonic influences from Jazz. Besarte is pretty straight ahead diatonic harmony -- nothing like what the bebop players were doing at that time -- but this was almost 70 years ago, so it must have sounded very hip at the time.

Yeah - I'm not thinking so much in terms of non-diatonic harmonies, it just seems like if you imagined they were singing in English, the overall sound could come out of a film score from 1930s Hollywood. (Phrasing, arrangement etc). Something vaguely like this:

(Particularly that bit at 1.51 - 2.09 in the original clip).

 

[Richie Blondet]

Did U.S. based JAZZ influence 'Son'? Of course it did. Everyone always pays attention to what the other guy/gal is doing.

Arsenio's early recordings are not the best examples. It really comes down to individuals expressing themselves within the orchestration or format. Listen to Louis Armstrong play trumpet in the 20s and 30s and take a listen to how Chocolate plays in Arsenio's band and you can 'hear' similarities. The fact that Choco reveals this influence himself gives it more weight, even though, as he himself states 'Yo no soy Jazzista'.

The best examples to hear the influence of Jazz and it subsets ['Hot Jazz,' 'Swing,' 'Bebop,' 'Hard Bop,' etc.] are artists like Perez Prado, Machito, Bebo Valdes, Rafael Munoz, Augusto Coen, Alberto Socarras, Marcelino Guerra, Noro Morales, Tito Puente, Juanito Sanabria... scores of others. Before he relocated to the USA, the pianist-arranger Rene Hernandez had an orchestra that was in the same mold and mayhap even better than Machito's in the sense that it was a Cuban who understood the nuances of Swing while still going in a very Cuban direction. [Machito's leading arranger had been an Anglo for 3-4 years in the early mid-40s].

I can't remember where exactly, but there's a piece of film footage that has been used in more than one documentary where Antonio Arcano talks about that very subject. The influence of U.S. based Jazz on his brand of music. Arcano's music is as tipico as it comes. So, evidently, that Jazz influence is more than just rhythmical or melodical. It was manifested in some other way. This is where I stop and a real educated musician can step in and connect those dots.

 

[groovetpt]

Listen to Louis Armstrong play trumpet in the 20s and 30s and take a listen to how Chocolate plays in Arsenio's band and you can 'hear' similarities. The fact that Choco reveals this influence himself gives it more weight, even though, as he himself states 'Yo no soy Jazzista'.

Hey Richie, yes Louis played in an arpeggiated style, like Chocolate often plays -- as opposed to the more modern style of linear scale-based playing of cats like Miles, Clifford Brown, Freddie Hubbard, etc. I mentioned earlier how the most likely influences of Jazz in Son would be in instrumental improvisations, particularly by horn players... like Chocolate.

The best examples to hear the influence of Jazz and it subsets ['Hot Jazz,' 'Swing,' 'Bebop,' 'Hard Bop,' etc.] are artists like Perez Prado, Machito, Bebo Valdes, Rafael Munoz, Augusto Coen, Alberto Socarras, Marcelino Guerra, Noro Morales, Tito Puente, Juanito Sanabria... scores of others. Before he relocated to the USA, the pianist-arranger Rene Hernandez had an orchestra that was in the same mold and mayhap even better than Machito's in the sense that it was a Cuban who understood the nuances of Swing while still going in a very Cuban direction. [Machito's leading arranger had been an Anglo for 3-4 years in the early mid-40s].

Great stuff Richie, but the OP was specifically referring to son in the 40's. Harmonically, Son wasn't as advanced as the examples you just cited. Maybe I'm off base, but that is my thought.

I can't remember where exactly, but there's a piece of film footage that has been used in more than one documentary where Antonio Arcano talks about that very subject. The influence of U.S. based Jazz on his brand of music. Arcano's music is as tipico as it comes. So, evidently, that Jazz influence is more than just rhythmical or melodical. It was manifested in some other way. This is where I stop and a real educated musician can step in and connect those dots.

I am super interested in hearing more about this. If it's not rhythmic and harmonic influence, then... well, what?

 

[Richie Blondet]

Hmmmm... interesting question. I like the music very much, but no, the horn section does not sound like American Jazz to me. Short staccato notes by the trumpets ( like in the beginning ) and those sixteenth note arpeggios at 1:22 - 1:29 -- very tipico to my ears.

I think the main difference is the "feel" that is dictated by the respective rhythm sections -- the percussion in Cuban music and the drummer in Jazz, in particular. In Cuban ( and Latin music in general ) horns generally play very clean and crisp, on top of the beat and eighth notes are played evenly, because that is how the percussion is playing. American jazz, with the 4/4 "swing" element laid down by the drummer , horns generally play longer ( "legato" ) notes with an eighth note triplet undercurrent to the feel. Even when the horns in the Aresenio song are playing legato eighth notes at 1:51- 2:09 they are still playing them even, not with a triplet feel like in Jazz.

This is not to say that there was not extensive exchange and influence between Cuban and American Jazz... all of that is well documented.

Contrast the Arsenio song with something from Count Basie in 1941 and maybe that can explain better what I'm thinking. They also play very clean, but a bit more slippery, with that "swing" feel, if you get what I mean.

Of course, the equivalent to Basie in our music would be this:

As far as Arsenio style music, one may have to go further back in time and music. When I hear those old Sexteto's and Septeto's from the Caribbean, I can hear a reminiscence to Pops Armstrong and those smaller ensembles from the 19-teens and '20s. The website RED HOT JAZZ has some great audio files of all of that period music.

 

[groovetpt]

As far as Arsenio style music, one may have to go further back in time and music. When I hear those old Sexteto's and Septeto's from the Caribbean, I can hear a reminiscence to Pops Armstrong and those smaller ensembles from the 19-teens and '20s. The website RED HOT JAZZ has some great audio files of all of that period music.

Now I think we're honing in... Curtis mentioned Scott Joplin, now you're talking about a young Louis Armstrong. The influences of Jazz in the early part of the century were probably much more profound in Cuban music of the 20's and 30's leading up to the innovation of Son than I've been allowing for.

 

[charafiend]

Now I think we're honing in... Curtis mentioned Scott Joplin, now you're talking about a young Louis Armstrong. The influences of Jazz in the early part of the century were probably much more profound in Cuban music of the 20's and 30's leading up to the innovation of Son than I've been allowing for.

Here's a recording from the 1930 from Sexteto Munamar. You can hear the leading voice speaking in English what sounds to be sexual references.

Listen at 2:43

Would you say this could be some reflection of Blues influence?

 

[charafiend]

Did U.S. based JAZZ influence 'Son'? Of course it did. Everyone always pays attention to what the other guy/gal is doing.

Arsenio's early recordings are not the best examples. It really comes down to individuals expressing themselves within the orchestration or format. Listen to Louis Armstrong play trumpet in the 20s and 30s and take a listen to how Chocolate plays in Arsenio's band and you can 'hear' similarities. The fact that Choco reveals this influence himself gives it more weight, even though, as he himself states 'Yo no soy Jazzista'.

The best examples to hear the influence of Jazz and it subsets ['Hot Jazz,' 'Swing,' 'Bebop,' 'Hard Bop,' etc.] are artists like Perez Prado, Machito, Bebo Valdes, Rafael Munoz, Augusto Coen, Alberto Socarras, Marcelino Guerra, Noro Morales, Tito Puente, Juanito Sanabria... scores of others. Before he relocated to the USA, the pianist-arranger Rene Hernandez had an orchestra that was in the same mold and mayhap even better than Machito's in the sense that it was a Cuban who understood the nuances of Swing while still going in a very Cuban direction. [Machito's leading arranger had been an Anglo for 3-4 years in the early mid-40s].

I can't remember where exactly, but there's a piece of film footage that has been used in more than one documentary where Antonio Arcano talks about that very subject. The influence of U.S. based Jazz on his brand of music. Arcano's music is as tipico as it comes. So, evidently, that Jazz influence is more than just rhythmical or melodical. It was manifested in some other way. This is where I stop and a real educated musician can step in and connect those dots.

Hmmm

Would you say Chappottin was influenced by Armstrong?

 

[Richie Blondet]

Great stuff Richie, but the OP was specifically referring to son in the 40's -- harmonically, Son just wasn't as advanced as the examples you just cited. Maybe I'm off base, but that is my thought.

I hear you. I'm mentioning those guys because they played Son as well. I think most people tend to think of a guitar led group with one or two trumpets when that term 'Son' pops up. Yóu can hear the jazz influence via the brass in Don Azpiazu's version of EL MANICERO, a Son-Pregon.

I am super interested in hearing more about this. If it's not rhythmic and harmonic influence, then... well, what?

As I recall Arcano expressing, in the sense that the influence of Swing, for example, forced them to take a new direction musically. A more progressive approach to stay on a competitive level with the U.S. music that was making inroads into the popular culture of Cuba. In retrospect, its no coincidence that as Swing becomes an international phenomenon, you suddenly have a change in Cuban Popular Music w/ Arsenio's 'Diablo' and Arcanó's 'Nuevo Ritmo' with help from the Lopez Brothers. To maintain and preserve their audiences from completely abandoning them they pushed forward the music. That would be one way how music from the outside influences an indigenous music. In fact, I should take back what I mentioned earlier about it not being a melodical influence because the entire canon of Cuban music is as replete with U.S. music as any other. Arcano's rendition of Africa Viva is a take on 'Somewhere Over the Rainbow'. A Cachao chart he re-records for one of his master sessions CDs. Another one that comes to mind is 'Rhapsody In Blue' done as a Danzon.

You can also 'hear' how the advent of free space to improvise in Cuban musical formats begin to become the norm, shortly after the U.S. Jazz / Swing bands begin to showcase their individual virtuosos. As the U.S. bands get larger, so too doo the existing format in Cuba grow in size. The tipicas practically become mini symphonies and the sexteto's convert to conjunto's and add piano and percussion. Eventually leading to Big Bands.