There's this phenomenon I've witnessed across multiple dance schools locally, where the highest level class is clogged up with a sediment of never-improving students. Is this something that happens in your scenes, too? Any good strategies to deal with it? I guess offering an explicit "advanced retirement" class is going to be a hard sell
Advanced classes collecting bad dancers
- Thread starter Gaviota
- Start date
Sadly all too common.
I think the naming convention is partly to blame, as well as the inability to judge what is advanced. This is the fault of both teachers and students.
I bet if a class was titled "Master your basics" that 99% would fail including the teacher .
I think the naming convention is partly to blame, as well as the inability to judge what is advanced. This is the fault of both teachers and students.
I bet if a class was titled "Master your basics" that 99% would fail including the teacher .
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Many salsa teachers became good social dancers early, became popular, started teaching before deeply understanding biomechanics and give classes without much analytical structure. Also salsa does not have an academic technique system.
Technical improvement requires: repetition, slow work, isolation drills, feedback loops, error correction, consistency over months. This would be too discomfortable for many.
Technical improvement requires: repetition, slow work, isolation drills, feedback loops, error correction, consistency over months. This would be too discomfortable for many.
Groove On
Son
Yes, the naming convention is awful, unfortunately it sells classes. My main beef with beg/int/adv is that it only indicates the mechanics people have learned, not the level of technique they have. In other words, it prioritizes the move NOT how they move.
I once had a contemporary/jazz teacher that measured levels by how well a dancer kept their balance, equilibrium & poise.
Under his rules:
Beginner dancers can execute a single move elegantly, with balance, equilibirum and poise.
Intermediate dancers can execute 2-3 moves elegantly, with balance, equilibrium and poise.
Advanced dancers - never lose their balance, equilibrium or poise.
Unfortunately, if these rules were applied in social dance scenes, a lot of the int-adv students would quickly realize, they are actually stuck in beginner hell.
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I call it the Pokémon mentality. People are obsessed with collecting moves, very few actually learn or care how to do them well.
'Advanced' is basically just marketing, plays to people's egos, sells more classes. Very few in 'advanced' classes are advanced and it's not just skills it's a mindset. People take advanced classes to boost their ego, they don't want to be corrected or have any flaws pointed out. That's the complete anthesis of what advanced classes should be.
I remember taking a long time (i.e. 2+ years) before I felt confident enough to move to intermediate. Even when I did, I stayed in the beginner class and did both back to back. They were good, well run classes (in Osaka, a loooong time ago 
).
I briefly returned to Australia for more study and tried some classes at different schools. I settled on one with the traditional three levels. This was part of the problem. People mastered what was taught in the beginner level and then wanted to move up, then learned what they could in intermediate, and then moved to advanced. Students had to wait for an invitation to do so from the teachers; they couldn't choose to advance. They put me directly into advanced when I started (this is the end of the world I'm talking about, where 'advanced' would likely equate to 'advanced beginner' in several places over the equator).
The problem was this ceiling. Schools can't afford to offer too many classes at different levels, or have the time to do so at venues they access. The advanced class was full of people who couldn't get the steps or sequences taught and didn't have the base skills. You'd move around the circle and only every fifth lead would know what to do. Often you'd stand there as the lead got lost after two counts and couldn't continue. I'd finally get to a decent lead and he would announce "At last! A professional!" (translation: a follow who could pick up the steps taught), so the problem was happening in both directions. It became of no benefit to me. I needed somewhere to move up to with others at my level, but there was nowhere further to go. Another school had a higher level, but it was a 'performance' class teaching a set routine, and the members were total snobs.
Eventually with base country changes, getting ridiculously busy with work and class options and decent teachers here drying up, I never ended up back in class. I need classes, but can't find what I'm looking for. An 'advanced' class here just doesn't measure up, and too many of the local 'teachers' are good dancers but don't have the right skills (or too big an ego) to be effective instructors once students need more nuance.
). I briefly returned to Australia for more study and tried some classes at different schools. I settled on one with the traditional three levels. This was part of the problem. People mastered what was taught in the beginner level and then wanted to move up, then learned what they could in intermediate, and then moved to advanced. Students had to wait for an invitation to do so from the teachers; they couldn't choose to advance. They put me directly into advanced when I started (this is the end of the world I'm talking about, where 'advanced' would likely equate to 'advanced beginner' in several places over the equator
). The problem was this ceiling. Schools can't afford to offer too many classes at different levels, or have the time to do so at venues they access. The advanced class was full of people who couldn't get the steps or sequences taught and didn't have the base skills. You'd move around the circle and only every fifth lead would know what to do. Often you'd stand there as the lead got lost after two counts and couldn't continue. I'd finally get to a decent lead and he would announce "At last! A professional!" (translation: a follow who could pick up the steps taught), so the problem was happening in both directions. It became of no benefit to me. I needed somewhere to move up to with others at my level, but there was nowhere further to go. Another school had a higher level, but it was a 'performance' class teaching a set routine, and the members were total snobs.
Eventually with base country changes, getting ridiculously busy with work and class options and decent teachers here drying up, I never ended up back in class. I need classes, but can't find what I'm looking for. An 'advanced' class here just doesn't measure up, and too many of the local 'teachers' are good dancers but don't have the right skills (or too big an ego) to be effective instructors once students need more nuance.
This I don't understand: when students had to wait for an invitation, why did they invite people who didn't have the base skills? This spoils the whole system.
A friend told me about her classes back then in neighboring city, where the instructor famously didn't allow many people to join the advanced class: "Sorry, you need to get better first!". This way she learned to spin well, I can acknowledge that. But some people left the school frustrated because they were repeatedly not allowed to join the advanced class, they switched to other schools in town (I imagine saying "He just doesn't like me, but see that girl who's worse than me, she's allowed..." etc.). So from a monetary view it is risky to never allow some people to join the advanced course. But that instructor still has fame, I heard his name mentioned quite a few times though he doesn't teach anymore since a decade.
To be fair it is super hard to judge yourself: you don't know what you don't know. People normally never see themselves on video, and even if they do they can't see the issues. We are polite to each other, and we are vulnerable if criticised. And which scale will you use for saying someone is "good"? Compare to your small locale scene or to those festivals where the pros and the best of your continent gather?
Recently I tried a WCS Jack'n'Jill in the lowest division: I was eliminated in the first preliminary round. I hadn't thought I was so bad. My teacher told me in more polite words that visually my weight transfer sucks (it's different from salsa so I have to learn it from scratch). Now I know on what basic technique I have to focus: that will need a lot of exercises at home which will take a long time. But at least I got told and now I know. But this open critique rarely happens, it is easier to be polite than to risk annoying some vulnerable soul.
Jaime_Pipoca
Changui
What are you looking for?
To improve. I'm that annoying follow who hasn't got any better for a long time
. A good teacher that can see the holes and work on them. Advanced (and intermediate, for that matter) classes that are worthy of the labels.Adding to what Azana said, imho this is one reason why scenes stagnate. Inter /adv dancers who DO want to improve get frustrated with 'advanced' classes where they don't learn anything, where there is no real appetite for growth beyond just learn more patterns, so many just leave.
This filters down socially too.
This filters down socially too.
Before one festival I took some private lessons in dance school with good teacher to work on the basics. And I was offered to join group lessons free of charge (they lacked dudes).
I actually felt I got worse for couple days after the group lessons. I spent more time on processing and handling various issues on how not to dance, little time on how to dance. Can do a list of complaints, but we know how it is.
And yes in advanced classes there were many people who take classes for 10 - 15 years and whom I rarely see on the dance floor.
Later, I had more fun in festival than "advanced students " even though they know 5 times more moves. But I actually danced 5 times more.
And my favorite discovery in that festival had about 2 years of experience. No previous couple dancing. But she went all in on the dance floor. Attitude.
I actually felt I got worse for couple days after the group lessons. I spent more time on processing and handling various issues on how not to dance, little time on how to dance. Can do a list of complaints, but we know how it is.
And yes in advanced classes there were many people who take classes for 10 - 15 years and whom I rarely see on the dance floor.
Later, I had more fun in festival than "advanced students " even though they know 5 times more moves. But I actually danced 5 times more.
And my favorite discovery in that festival had about 2 years of experience. No previous couple dancing. But she went all in on the dance floor. Attitude.