Adjusting leading technique vs turn patterns

[Myst]

After reading through several posts in the forum, the consensus seems to be that it is the leader's responsibility to dance to the level of the follow.

The simple answer is to tone down the turn pattern when dancing with a less experience follow, and save the more advanced combinations for more skilled dancers. I agree with this.

However, I am noticing that inexperienced follows (and experience follows that have bad habits) tend to require a very heavy lead. The less skilled, the more difficulty a follow will have controlling her momentum, balance, spins, etc.

The question becomes, should I compromise a gentle yet precise lead, and instead provide a heavy handed lead for the sake of the follow? Is giving the illusion of assurance in a dance worth ingraining bad habits?

 

[azzey]

Don't lead with more force (heavy handed=shouting=bad leading), lead with more clarity. e.g. by providing better frame, which is part of good leading technique. Learning how to lead with more clarity can only be a good habit for all your leading.

Don't get me wrong, tension is useful, but how much tension you use (how loud you talk) often won't help unless you say it differently or more clearly.

The problem, as a follower myself, is that some leaders "gentle yet precise lead" often doesn't have enough frame or lead for me to work out what the hell they want me to do from the gentle yet precise. There's not enough *signal* about important information like direction.

Often a gentle yet precise lead combined with a little more frame and a no option lead (reducing her options to one) is more effective than adding more energy. If anything I tend to lighten up with the wilder followers and add more precision to the signal.

 

[salsamarty]

Of course you should, in general, adjust what you do with the abilities of your partner but I've never found any way to adjust to a heavy follow. For me it becomes an issue about two people not having a compatible dance connection. During a lesson I will politely try to give advice about relaxing and lightening their arm but there not much you can do while social dancing. Also, a follow with a heavy arm will often be slow to react to a lead so I need to adjust accordingly which generally means I do simpler turns and patterns. Fortunately, I seldom encounter these follows. It is incredibly tiring to dance with them.

 

[vit]

Adding more force usually doesn't work, because more force you add, follower a kind of resist more. So as Azzey and Salsamarty said, effort should be made to lead more clearly, trying stimulating the follower to dance on her own instead of being dragged across the floor. Also, some followers are heavier (I mean their weight is higher, not how they feel when dancing) and they usually need slightly more time to react and do the move, so they need slightly earlier leading (fraction of the beat) than lighter followers
However, every person is different, so this general rule won't work with all followers

 

[Rak Ataka Boom]

These things don't always work, but worth a try.

- Try making the "pre-lead" extremely clear and drawn out, that can give the follow more time to respond. It can also make the dance smoother and less fatiguing.

- On the recovery side, I try to give the follow a sense of confidence by tracing the body and using an extra solid "catch" with my frame.

- If the follow is a "puller", I will drop the connection whenever they pull, that usually forces their body to carry it's own weight. And then I'll follow up with the stuff I mentioned above.

 

[Myst]

Don't lead with more force (heavy handed=shouting=bad leading), lead with more clarity. e.g. by providing better frame, which is part of good leading technique. Learning how to lead with more clarity can only be a good habit for all your leading.

Don't get me wrong, tension is useful, but how much tension you use (how loud you talk) often won't help unless you say it differently or more clearly.

The problem, as a follower myself, is that some leaders "gentle yet precise lead" often doesn't have enough frame or lead for me to work out what the hell they want me to do from the gentle yet precise. There's not enough *signal* about important information like direction.

Often a gentle yet precise lead combined with a little more frame and a no option lead (reducing her options to one) is more effective than adding more energy. If anything I tend to lighten up with the wilder followers and add more precision to the signal.

I think your point of giving a "no option lead" would definitely help convey what is expected to be followed with more clarity. Can you elaborate on not getting enough "signal" from some light leaders? I can see that just body positioning, ie: opening the door, etc, should by itself convey information on where the follow should be going, but I am sure you have more tips on this department.

 

[Myst]

Of course you should, in general, adjust what you do with the abilities of your partner but I've never found any way to adjust to a heavy follow. For me it becomes an issue about two people not having a compatible dance connection. During a lesson I will politely try to give advice about relaxing and lightening their arm but there not much you can do while social dancing. Also, a follow with a heavy arm will often be slow to react to a lead so I need to adjust accordingly which generally means I do simpler turns and patterns. Fortunately, I seldom encounter these follows. It is incredibly tiring to dance with them.

Agreed, and lucky you you encounter heavy follows seldom. I on the other hand find most follows to be stiff in the arms, especially with faster songs or when the song gains in intensity while keeping the same tempo, these follows will not only have stiff arms, but will have very jerky arm movements out suddenly.

And perhaps I am too light or lack precision as Azzey mentioned he has experienced from some leads.

I have danced with some very advanced follows who are extremelly light and the dance jsut feels much better. In fact last Tuesday I finally asked a superb follow for a dance and at the end of the song she thanked me for not pushing and pulling her as most do, and that this way "she could dance all night without getting tired". That made my night

 

[Myst]

Adding more force usually doesn't work, because more force you add, follower a kind of resist more. So as Azzey and Salsamarty said, effort should be made to lead more clearly, trying stimulating the follower to dance on her own instead of being dragged across the floor. Also, some followers are heavier (I mean their weight is higher, not how they feel when dancing) and they usually need slightly more time to react and do the move, so they need slightly earlier leading (fraction of the beat) than lighter followers
However, every person is different, so this general rule won't work with all followers

You make an interesting observation about asking slightly earlier, but in my understanding - assuming the dance is on ET2 - the earliest you can ask is on beat 1 (such as showing the hand), this gives time for the follow to react on the 2 and make contact, then the action happens on the 3.

I would think this would be valid for any follow, are you asking before the one beat? Or are you making a different point I missed?

 

[Myst]

These things don't always work, but worth a try.

- Try making the "pre-lead" extremely clear and drawn out, that can give the follow more time to respond. It can also make the dance smoother and less fatiguing.

- On the recovery side, I try to give the follow a sense of confidence by tracing the body and using an extra solid "catch" with my frame.

- If the follow is a "puller", I will drop the connection whenever they pull, that usually forces their body to carry it's own weight. And then I'll follow up with the stuff I mentioned above.

Thanks for the specific tips. I can definitely work on making that "pre-lead" more clear, typically showing the asking hand in a more obvious way. For "pullers" yes, I rather abort the move instead of forcing it. I have noticed that giving multiple traveling turns to these "pullers" results in them having very jerky arm motion - usually a result of poor balance on their part , or moving away from the slot. As the jerkiness and pulling is uncomfortable for both of us, I tend to eject gently but make sure to recover them at then end as they usually are completely off balance.

As for the second tip, what did you mean by "tracing the body"?

 

[Rak Ataka Boom]

Tracing is letting your hand or finger stay in contact with your partner so that it slides across their body as they are turning or moving.

 

[Rak Ataka Boom]

... making that "pre-lead" more clear, typically showing the asking hand in a more obvious way.

By "pre-lead" I was thinking of the upper body movement / weight preparation that occurs right before you actually step and make a weight transfer. In a CBL, it would be the turning of the shoulders on the AND right before the step to open up the body. I don't know if "pre-lead" is the correct term for that.

 

[azzey]

I think your point of giving a "no option lead" would definitely help convey what is expected to be followed with more clarity. Can you elaborate on not getting enough "signal" from some light leaders?

Mostly because they are only making small movements with their hands (which feels like finger twiddling) or too many movements (which feels like confused leading because of too much information) and not any connection to their arms or body, so no feel of body leading giving a clear direction to move. The best leaders you can feel the connection, even if it is light and the signal is clearly understood even if the follower is unable to respond in time.

Second and third time it is easier to follow a clear lead, whereas you have to guess what other leaders want and that often means a good chance of being wrong.

I can see that just body positioning, ie: opening the door, etc, should by itself convey information on where the follow should be going, but I am sure you have more tips on this department.

Body positioning can help, but only in situations where the follower can see it. Also, body position on its own often gives an incomplete picture as there are multiple options, so more information is required.

You will get the idea more easily as a lead if you learn to follow, even the basics.

 

[vit]

You make an interesting observation about asking slightly earlier, but in my understanding - assuming the dance is on ET2 - the earliest you can ask is on beat 1 (such as showing the hand), this gives time for the follow to react on the 2 and make contact, then the action happens on the 3.

I would think this would be valid for any follow, are you asking before the one beat? Or are you making a different point I missed?

Well, it depends on the move, but during the dancing, you should "see" several beats ahead in order for the dance to be smooth for the follower. So your free hand can start traveling to the position where the follower will catch it more than one beat earlier. So she will also have enough time to do the same. These things make the follower relaxed so she is dancing better. If things are happening too fast for her, she switches to the survival mode, becomes nervous, tense, can start pulling you and doing other things, so it ends in a kind of wrestling. If you see that happen, simplify the dancing, relax the connection and try to remain calm to calm her down. Your behavior reflects to her

Another thing is preparation or pre-lead as you called it (suppose you mean the same) which is usually giving the follower slight lead to the opposite side to where you will actually lead her (or slightly turning her to the opposite direction), so elasticity of her body and overall connection is used to make things happen easier

Try to lead the follower that way that she is not out of balance at the end of the move so that you need to "recover" her. Maintaining the balance of the follower is very important. Of course, she doesn't need to have her own balance all the time, you can use the connection to balance her with moving yourself out of balance to another side for a moment during some move, so that you both are in balance as a couple, but that's more advanced stuff once you are both able to maintain own balance and both have sense for the balance of the partner. etc

 

[azzey]

By "pre-lead" I was thinking of the upper body movement / weight preparation that occurs right before you actually step and make a weight transfer. In a CBL, it would be the turning of the shoulders on the AND right before the step to open up the body. I don't know if "pre-lead" is the correct term for that.

No. Contra-body motion probably.