a question for the on2 purists...

[Offbeat]

However, once the concept is understood and one has a feel for it, personal interpretation should override that. I hope this makes sense...

Personal interpretation works within the structure and the reason. Beyond is really a new style. To dance in a new style (i.e. one's personal interpretation) will need others who will follow the similar interpretation.

To dance on2 style then, you have to interpret it within its overall structure. As someone mentioned you need to know the rules before you break them. Interpretation needs to have bounds unless you want to dance a totally different way.

 

[chr]

We should discuss it at the Beat tonight. We can at least support what we are saying by demo'ing.

Sounds like fun..

I wonder what will come out of it, though I regularly have discussions with my wife on these issues when we practice (typically without getting to any real agreement. )

 

[Offbeat]

I wonder what will come out of it, though

We could start a war there between the 8s, 8&s and 1s if we get lucky and watch the fun :evil:

 

[sweavo]

I did a youtube search for "on2 salsa" and watched the first page of videos

5 included stepping on 8&
3 were power2
2 were stepping precisely on 1 and 5
The rest were either duplicates, had no dancing, or you couldn't see the feet well enough to tell

Instructors that were consistently very picky and specific about correct timing (and feel) include Seaon Stylist and John Narvaez, among others.

Here is seaon stepping on 8& and on 8

youtube.com/watch?v=G3aR8zXI9xk
youtube.com/watch?v=cqDEp7jzgrs

consistently on 4 and 8

youtube.com/watch?v=xfwxpdCVTMk

and consistently on 1 and 5

youtube.com/watch?v=FT9c3XvX-BI

I tried to do a similar youtube survey for John Narvaez, but

youtube.com/watch?v=Q2Abd4MOL4U

was so horrible I nearly gave up. The next video of his I watched though has him stepping on 8&

youtube.com/watch?v=Uzq-dQvhgiI

 

[Offbeat]

Here is seaon stepping

consistently on 4 and 8

youtube.com/watch?v=xfwxpdCVTMk

It is hard to match steps in the video to the count.

I was trying to see on which count Amanda was starting her spins. A few times that I could see, the spins seemed to start on 8! Seaon as far as I know doesn't have that bad timing as to spin the follower on 8.

Should we really use Youtube to decide which fraction of the count someone is stepping on?

I was dancing right next to John a few times last night. He was definitely not stepping on 4 and 8.

 

[sweavo]

It is hard to match steps in the video to the count.

yes, but I am up to the challenge . You can do it with the sound off. Watch the feet, make a pop sound in your head as the contact is made, and listen to the rhythm of the pops

 

[Salsamakossa]

Not sure what you meant by "use the 8". I would be very surprised if they weren't holding the "8". With at least two of the five you mentioned I do know that they definitely hold "8" and teach that way.

I meant they step on 8.

I think the limitation in this discussion might be language and semantics. What do you mean by "pause"? Pause doesn't mean dead stop or freezing the movement (when I read it in this context).

So what does pause mean if it does not mean (a temporary) stop?

Pausing doesn't imply jerkyness, irrespective of the song's tempo.

If you are not stopping for a break, then pausing implies jerkiness RELATIVE to the fact that you would have been moving forward between then break beats of 2 and 6.

 

[Salsamakossa]

Personal interpretation works within the structure and the reason. Beyond is really a new style. To dance in a new style (i.e. one's personal interpretation) will need others who will follow the similar interpretation.

To dance on2 style then, you have to interpret it within its overall structure. As someone mentioned you need to know the rules before you break them. Interpretation needs to have bounds unless you want to dance a totally different way.

Offbeat,

Well the rule is to step on 123, 567. They are already breaking it by nuancing it and stepping on 8& and 4&. Hopefully, you atleast agree that the stepping depends on what pattern is being led though, right? Which leads to the personal interpretation I am talking about....

 

[Salsamakossa]

Offbeat,

Download the video, and then watch it to be sure it is not being affected by the youtube shenanigans. I think you should atleast match Sweavo's enthusiasm for this challenge... lol.

I have not watched this clip but are you suggesting there is something wrong with starting a spin on 8, dancing on 2??

It is hard to match steps in the video to the count.

I was trying to see on which count Amanda was starting her spins. A few times that I could see, the spins seemed to start on 8! Seaon as far as I know doesn't have that bad timing as to spin the follower on 8.

Should we really use Youtube to decide which fraction of the count someone is stepping on?

I was dancing right next to John a few times last night. He was definitely not stepping on 4 and 8.

 

[Salsamakossa]

Sweavo,

Nice job. I remember going through so many videos to figure this all out. And having started off dancing Power 2, stepping on 234, 678... lol.

I did a youtube search for "on2 salsa" and watched the first page of videos

5 included stepping on 8&
3 were power2
2 were stepping precisely on 1 and 5
The rest were either duplicates, had no dancing, or you couldn't see the feet well enough to tell



Here is seaon stepping on 8& and on 8

youtube.com/watch?v=G3aR8zXI9xk
youtube.com/watch?v=cqDEp7jzgrs

consistently on 4 and 8

youtube.com/watch?v=xfwxpdCVTMk

and consistently on 1 and 5

youtube.com/watch?v=FT9c3XvX-BI

I tried to do a similar youtube survey for John Narvaez, but

youtube.com/watch?v=Q2Abd4MOL4U

was so horrible I nearly gave up. The next video of his I watched though has him stepping on 8&

youtube.com/watch?v=Uzq-dQvhgiI

 

[Flujo]

You lot have me confused! Goodbye to that comfortable place called ignorance that once was oh so blissful. Thanks!

 

[MacMoto]

A few things that comes to my mind...

You totally loss me at slow being 1. I guess we have to start at what you mean by Q and S. Generally understanding: Q is one beat and S is two beats. If you arrive on S, you are holding (your weight?) for two beats before arriving on next Q.

So how do you get slow feel "on first beat" in SQQ ? What is happening on 7 through 1 and 1 through 2 ?

See my post http://salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6759&page=5

I was trying to see on which count Amanda was starting her spins. A few times that I could see, the spins seemed to start on 8! Seaon as far as I know doesn't have that bad timing as to spin the follower on 8.

Starting to spin followers before the 1 is not that unusual, especially when the leader wants to fit in more than a double over 4 beats.

Here is seaon stepping on 8& and on 8

youtube.com/watch?v=G3aR8zXI9xk
youtube.com/watch?v=cqDEp7jzgrs

consistently on 4 and 8

youtube.com/watch?v=xfwxpdCVTMk

and consistently on 1 and 5

youtube.com/watch?v=FT9c3XvX-BI

I think the leader generally has a lot more freedom as far as stepping is concerned. He can pretty much do whatever suits him, step early, step late, not step at all - as long as his *lead* is timed correctly.

It's much more important for the follower to step at the correct timing, and that means stepping on 1 2 3, 5 6 7. There are times (e.g., coming out of a turn) when the follower may end up putting her foot down before the 1/5, and she can get away with it as long as the next step is on the right count, but it's not something she should be aiming to do.

There appears to be a school of thought (one of my teachers, who learned from Adolfo, teaches this) that the step on the 1/5 is getting bigger these days than the traditional "small step forward on the 1 followed by a big step on the 2" teaching of the ET2 basic, and that the follower should aim to "walk forward on the 1-2 taking equal-sized steps". For this, stepping on the 1 and not the 8 or 8& is crucial.

 

[terence]

A

I think the leader generally has a lot more freedom as far as stepping is concerned. He can pretty much do whatever suits him, step early, step late, not step at all - as long as his *lead* is timed correctly.

It's much more important for the follower to step at the correct timing, and that means stepping on 1 2 3, 5 6 7.

" Stepping " as you put it, is NEVER completed until the body has reached its projected destination . ALL dance is predicated upon the " Body falls.. foot catches " principle. " Lead " emanates from the body ,and hopefully, Body and leg action are synchronised ...

And, I have only as much freedom as the music and the specific variaton , dictates.
Moving out of those parameters, I still have to be in "concert " with the ladies actions and she, with mine. In addition, my "freedom" should always be dictated by the ladies ability.

Also, weight changes do not always occur on the same 3 beats in the bar (now thats freedom ! )

 

[sweavo]

the follower should aim to "walk forward on the 1-2 taking equal-sized steps". For this, stepping on the 1 and not the 8 or 8& is crucial.

Yikes! I think the follower should aim to follow... i.e. I want the freedom to lead small, big, or even sideways steps here! I suppose in a hand-hold position (what a tango teacher called a patty-cake lead) she has to supply more of the intention.

I agree that in that scenario she mustn't step early (but maybe she can "play" with the 4, 4& and 5 to an extent, since she's retreating from the leader)

 

[sweavo]

And to lyndwode, here's a two year old thread on the same topic! http://www.salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=3448

 

[Offbeat]

A few things that comes to my mind...


See my post http://salsaforums.com/showthread.php?t=6759&page=5

I already quoted your post from that thread somewhere already.

Starting to spin followers before the 1 is not that unusual, especially when the leader wants to fit in more than a double over 4 beats.

There are certainly lot of things that can be done. With my on2 purist hat on, starting the spin before 1, is going off time. As we have discussed the 8 is for the follower to prepare for the spin. Can followers spin without proper preparation? Yes, most can. At the same time depending on the move on previous 1 through 7, untimely spin starting on 8 could throw the follower off-balance. Hence both technically and timing wise it is correct to start spin on 1. No matter how many spins you want to fit after that. Seaon and ET both insist on starting the spin on 1.

I have not watched this clip but are you suggesting there is something wrong with starting a spin on 8, dancing on 2??

For me yes. The way it has been drilled to me, the count 8 is prep, count 1 is spin.

Doesn't mean I am able to execute it during social dancing, but I try to. I don't have mastery of that precise timing yet. I do try to make sure at least a proper prep even it it means starting the spin late on 1&. Rather start a spin late with proper prep than early spin with little or no prep. Sometimes I might hurry the spin to be on time on 1 and follower pulls it off, but it doesn't feel right to either of us.

 

[Offbeat]

I meant they step on 8.



So what does pause mean if it does not mean (a temporary) stop?



If you are not stopping for a break, then pausing implies jerkiness RELATIVE to the fact that you would have been moving forward between then break beats of 2 and 6.

As you advance in on2 dancing beyond doing basics with the stop on 4 and 8, the instructors will then try to smoothen out your basic. From my limited understanding this done with the combination of weight change and upper-body movement, while the feet maintain the QQS rhythm. So much for my brief explanation. I don't want to confuse things by trying to break down the details (which itself is hard for me to do). Best is to ask an accomplished on2 master to demonstrate it. It has been demonstrated to me.

 

[Offbeat]

yes, but I am up to the challenge . You can do it with the sound off. Watch the feet, make a pop sound in your head as the contact is made, and listen to the rhythm of the pops

Will try out your method and report back. Though I will have to make sure I am popping the rhythm at the right moment.

 

[Salsamakossa]

Offbeat,

For on 2 spinning, for a right double spin for example, you can prep on 67 (with a twist to the left on 7) so that you can do your first turn on 81. Your 2nd turn is on 23, etc. So by count 2 you have already finished one turn. You can also start your turn on count 2, but that would be for the real basic stuff, for one turn only? I have Magna's dvd and took her class on this. The same thing is taught by Thomas Guererro, Milton Cobo, Shaka, etc. I think this was discussed in the spins thread, so you can check this. Based on this premise, there are many on2 moves that use the counts 81 for turns typified in the 'NY Turns Turns Turns' (Thomas Guererro, J Matos, N Flores) and Ismael Otero advanced on2 DVDs. Now, if guys like these have got it wrong, then hmmm... lol.

I just reviewed Seaon's spin dvd, and I noticed that he kind of preps on 12 and does a double spin. That however means the spins have to be very fast to finish on 5. And this is where he did not provide enough information because, I am having to presume his counting. He does not count out the spins completely. He says 567, then steps left right (presumably 1 2), and then spins...

I think both ways work just fine, and prep almost exactly with the same footwork (not count). I will let you decide which one is the purist stance, for your own purposes... lol.

There are certainly lot of things that can be done. With my on2 purist hat on, starting the spin before 1, is going off time. As we have discussed the 8 is for the follower to prepare for the spin. Can followers spin without proper preparation? Yes, most can. At the same time depending on the move on previous 1 through 7, untimely spin starting on 8 could throw the follower off-balance. Hence both technically and timing wise it is correct to start spin on 1. No matter how many spins you want to fit after that. Seaon and ET both insist on starting the spin on 1.



For me yes. The way it has been drilled to me, the count 8 is prep, count 1 is spin.

Doesn't mean I am able to execute it during social dancing, but I try to. I don't have mastery of that precise timing yet. I do try to make sure at least a proper prep even it it means starting the spin late on 1&. Rather start a spin late with proper prep than early spin with little or no prep. Sometimes I might hurry the spin to be on time on 1 and follower pulls it off, but it doesn't feel right to either of us.

 

[terence]

Offbeat,


But for on 2 spinning, for a right turn for example, you prep on 67 (with a twist to the left on 7)

If the body is in its correct alignment and the foot position , NO turn to the left should be used prior to turning right.

The dynamic of the rotation is the kinetic energy released off the standing leg .

All rotation is prepped with body commencing the turn in its intended direction . The weight needs to be firmly over the ball of the foot on the "standing " leg .

It also has nothing to do with any specific beat usage.. rhythmically it is Q Q powered from a slow