A few move...boring ?

[papawemba]

Hello to all !

My first post on this great forum I have been reading lately.
I am a beginner in salsa dancing (L.A. on 1), 5 month of dancing and I can't stop thinking about it
I read many time that when the leader just know a few move (what is few...?), then dancing becomes boring!
To me, this sound likes a follower just waiting to be entertained. Looking at the Stacey and Lucy Lopez clip in DVD "Salsa on the Spur of the Music!!", it just change my vision of dancing. [http://salsaisgood.com/timing_video.htm#features]

As a beginner, I think even the basic step can be very amusing/entertaining! The point is to hear and dance WITH the music and not thinking of move or pattern. For this to work, there must a kind of communication between leader/follower (smile, talking, eye contact, dancing in certain funny way on some beat ...).
I really really enjoy dancing when this happen. It's just a beginner leader point of view but hope I won't change it Of course I add basic move (very very selective) to be sure I stay on rhythm.

Nicolas

ps : English is not my native language.

 

[sweavo]

Hello to all !
As a beginner, I think even the basic step can be very amusing/entertaining! The point is to hear and dance WITH the music and not thinking of move or pattern. For this to work, there must a kind of communication ...

I am with you Nicolas! Some followers will disagree and say that you need more moves, but you don't want to dance with those people anyway! Keep doing what you are doing, and get new moves when you feel right. You are already way ahead of many dancers across the world!

 

[Jambo]

Hi Nicolas, I'm with you too It's quality not quantity that counts A dance with only a few moves but with a partner who is having fun is so much better than a complex dance with a partner taking it all too seriously, well in my humble opinion anyway

ps : English is not my native language.

It's a lot better than mine and English IS my native language!! :lol:

Happy dancing!!!

 

[peachexploration]

Welcome to Salsa Forums, Nicolas (Papawemba).

 

[Terremoto]

Welcome to Salsa Forums, Nicolas (Papawemba).

Ditto - welcome to salsa forums.

As far as your comment about having few moves. OK, well, I believe it is much more important to have quality over quantity. I have seen some dancers that try and learn a lot of moves before they even have a firm foundation of the basics - they don't look good and the ladies I have talked to consistently say that they don't like dancing with guys like that (I am a lead by the way).

With that being said - a lot of experienced follows will get bored if you just have a couple of patterns. OK - well, so what. Its more important that you get the basics down first. Let me explain what I did. I focussed on the fundamentals for a while until I was comfortable with them, and then I slowly started adding patterns. However, I would make sure I was comfortable with the new patterns before I started adding even more patterns. Always making sure that the follow enjoys my lead.

Dancing is really an expression of yourself and very personal. I am not saying that everyone has to learn new patterns. If you know the basics and are happy doing that the whole time - then great, have fun and dance and don't change a thing!!! But if you like learning new patterns and start enjoying the process of learning and trying out your new patterns - then thats great to!!

Salsa is a journey - not an end. Enjoy the process!!!

 

[pr]

Welcome to Salsa Forums, Nicolas (Papawemba).

Ditto - welcome to salsa forums.

Tritto!

Yup, I also think that connection is much more important than alot of moves. The "top" dancers don't use alot of moves anyway...

 

[MacMoto]

I've been thinking about this topic for a while.

I read many time that when the leader just know a few move (what is few...?), then dancing becomes boring!
To me, this sound likes a follower just waiting to be entertained.

You know, yes I admit I want the leader to entertain me. And yes, there are times when I find it boring to dance with leaders who lead only a few moves. But there are also leaders I really enjoy dancing with even though they don't have (or use) many moves. They entertain me in a different way. Moves are not the only way to entertain. Heck, I've had dances with leaders who have loads of moves and I still got bored after a while because the whole thing felt so mechanical!

The leads I like are expressive and communicative in their dancing. They feel the music, they connect with me, they respond to things I do (I try to entertain the leader too -- it's a two-way thing ), we have a laugh together, we enjoy dancing to the music together. The dance becomes a shared experience. Without that, repeating the same moves over and over does become boring. If we've got that togetherness, simply doing the basic step can be fun.

Looking at the Stacey and Lucy Lopez clip in DVD "Salsa on the Spur of the Music!!", it just change my vision of dancing. [http://salsaisgood.com/timing_video.htm#features]

I've had a look at the script of the DVD, and it looks very interesting. Although it's main focus is timing, it seems to cover much more. Pity they don't have a clip of Stacey and Lucy Lopez dancing on the website.

 

[papawemba]

Looks like I am not alone in this dancing category I see this forum is alive, nice.
Very interesting MacMoto ! Like you say running away from mechanically move is the way to dance.
Sometime I see great dancer with beautifull move, done on time etc.... but no smile, no communication, I should have been jealous seeing the flow but was not, looks boring (so I am with you).
I prefer to see dancing with errors and smiling. On this timing DVD, they dance for like 7 minutes....with xbl or WRT as the most complex move !!! And watching them is everything but not boring at all
In fact I prefer to dance basic steps with variation here and there (waltz style in xbl, cucaracha,cumbia, adios,...) than doing move that might be boring.

Nicolas

 

[Sabor]

to me:

priority 1 of dance = sabor/flava/presence
priority 2 = musicality
priority 3 = style and versatility
priority 4 = connection when with partner
priority 5 = moves

 

[mambo_LR]

Less is more

I wish more of us really understood the difference between dancing and doing moves. I always go out of my way to tell my students to stop worrying about piling up as many new moves as they can -- especially the guys. The way I put it, "Doing moves only requires memory; dancing requires heart."

I'm clearly no fan of "mambots," as I call the dancers who look like they're thinking "execute turn pattern 1.36 ... end turn pattern 1.36 ... execute turn pattern 4.32 ..."

I appreciate creative partnerwork as much as the next guy, but I'm turned off once it looks like turn patterns are being inflicted on a follower rather than shared with her. It's like screaming at someone when an actual conversation is the way to go.

But that's just me...

 

[SnowDancer]

While I'd like to believe that a lead doesn't need to know a lot of moves, I have watched a lot of people dancing, and it does seem like the women who are smiling and having a good time are being led through lots of complex turns.

And I know that my wife gets bored if I start repeating patterns we learned in class. OTOH, I've found that mixing lots of spins with back-side turns keeps her from complaining (maybe because she's too dizzy).

 

[nycsalsero]

to me:

priority 1 of dance = sabor/flava/presence
priority 2 = musicality
priority 3 = style and versatility
priority 4 = connection when with partner
priority 5 = moves

I must admit that I am a "mambot" most of the time, though I am always on beat and I hit the breaks in the music. I think this is because while learning patterns is straightforward and easy, having "sabor/flava/presence" is not straightforward to learn.

It isn't about something being easy to learn or not easy to learn, it's about whether there is a clear path down which to proceed if one wants to learn. With patterns that path is clear. But HOW does one begin to have sabor??

 

[noobster]

While I'd like to believe that a lead doesn't need to know a lot of moves, I have watched a lot of people dancing, and it does seem like the women who are smiling and having a good time are being led through lots of complex turns.

Well, maybe there are women out there who prefer the challenge of following lots of complex turn patterns. I can't speak for everyone.

I will say that I, personally, can remain perfectly happy and entertained with 3-4 patterns as long as they are led well, the guy is communicating with me, has good body motion, and lets me have some shine time.

All other things being equal, would I prefer more patterns? Maybe, but it's not a very strong preference. So given that I am dancing with you, at whatever level you are at, I would much prefer that you give me 3 solid patterns than those same 3 solid ones plus 5 more that you can't lead very well and that end up with you spinning me into the couple next to us.

Regarding your observation that the women dancing complex turn patterns are happier: well, the guys who have been around long enough to accumulate complex turn patterns are also the same guys who have been around long enough to acquire a clear and gentle lead, good body motion, and enough relaxation to smile and enjoy the dance. So while complex patterns + happy follower may often be seen together, it doesn't follow that one is the cause of the other.

(Btw I have no problem being used as a 'practice dummy' for new patterns by my salsa friends and acquaintances - how else are they going to get better? - but I do want sufficient warning and plenty of space.)

 

[noobster]

It isn't about something being easy to learn or not easy to learn, it's about whether there is a clear path down which to proceed if one wants to learn. With patterns that path is clear. But HOW does one begin to have sabor??

I wouldn't push trying to 'learn' something that can't really be taught. I would just keep doing what you are doing, watching good dancers, immersing yourself in the music, and see what emerges.

At least for me, the more comfortable I become with dancing, the more my natural joy in the dance is able to seep out of me. It's an ongoing process. I can imagine it would be significantly harder for a leader, as you can't escape the necessity of knowing patterns and this probably stands in the way of spontaneity. So maybe it's not time yet. But I bet it will show up by itself eventually.

PS - or you could try dancing with me for a start. A too-serious leader always challenges me to be silly enough to crack him. I'll be at Session 73 tonight, come if you want to hear Africando!

 

[SnowDancer]

Regarding your observation that the women dancing complex turn patterns are happier: well, the guys who have been around long enough to accumulate complex turn patterns are also the same guys who have been around long enough to acquire a clear and gentle lead, good body motion, and enough relaxation to smile and enjoy the dance. So while complex patterns + happy follower may often be seen together, it doesn't follow that one is the cause of the other.

Yes, you are probably right about that!

 

[Sabor]

to me:

priority 1 of dance = sabor/flava/presence
priority 2 = musicality
priority 3 = style and versatility
priority 4 = connection when with partner
priority 5 = moves

I must admit that I am a "mambot" most of the time, though I am always on beat and I hit the breaks in the music. I think this is because while learning patterns is straightforward and easy, having "sabor/flava/presence" is not straightforward to learn.

It isn't about something being easy to learn or not easy to learn, it's about whether there is a clear path down which to proceed if one wants to learn. With patterns that path is clear. But HOW does one begin to have sabor??

by expressing your emotions.. your feelings.. by allowing your soul to come out and dance.. by being in love with the beat.. by HEARING the beat .. not just listening.. by dancing with heart rather than brain.. by being in the zone .. by playing the music as it plays u.. by being utterly and completely relaxed and unintimidated.. by sharing as much of that with your partner.. by really not thinking about it..

 

[sweavo]

to me:

priority 1 of dance = sabor/flava/presence
priority 2 = musicality
priority 3 = style and versatility
priority 4 = connection when with partner
priority 5 = moves

I must admit that I am a "mambot" most of the time, though I am always on beat and I hit the breaks in the music. I think this is because while learning patterns is straightforward and easy, having "sabor/flava/presence" is not straightforward to learn.

It isn't about something being easy to learn or not easy to learn, it's about whether there is a clear path down which to proceed if one wants to learn. With patterns that path is clear. But HOW does one begin to have sabor??

by expressing your emotions.. your feelings.. by allowing your soul to come out and dance.. by being in love with the beat.. by HEARING the beat .. not just listening.. by dancing with heart rather than brain.. by being in the zone .. by playing the music as it plays u.. by being utterly and completely relaxed and unintimidated.. by sharing as much of that with your partner.. by really not thinking about it..

You cannot learn to have sabor, because you already have it. It's in there somewhere! You can only learn to allow it to come out!

Try going out one night deciding you are not going to dance, just sit and drink and talk with friends. Then when you do get up, it will be because you felt it rather than because it's "what people do".

 

[Salsamakossa]

I'll be at Session 73 tonight, come if you want to hear Africando!

I have a few Africando favorites - Ntoman, Yayboy, SonFo, Temedi, Colombia mi corazon, Africando, Pepita, Betece. Ok, sorry, that is more than a few ...lol.