Earlier I had a private lesson with an instructor who teaches NY Style On2. I asked him what tips he had for converting my On1 moves to On2, as I’ve just started learning On2. He said that there were *no* differences, you just shift over the counts (2 becomes 6, etc.), and if you were watching a video on silent you wouldn’t know the difference. But then I said I was confused: in ET On2, the slow count happens after the break step, when your feet are apart, whereas in on1 as I’ve always seen it, the slow count happens with your feet together (or only a little apart if doing progressive basic). This means that for ET2, the slow count happens during turns, whereas in on1 (again, as I’ve seen it) it happens during the prep for turns. To me, this means that the two will *not* be “identical, just shifted in time.” To this he responded that this way of stepping on1 is only taught because it’s easier for beginners to learn, and that in “true” LA style salsa the slow count happens following the break step, just like ET2 (hence, it truly will be the same as ET2, just shifted in time). I don’t pretend to be an expert, but I’ve literally never heard this from anyone else. Does anyone have any insight on this?
“Proper” Basic step for LA On1-Slow count after break step or with feet together?
- Thread starter bulldog91
- Start date
It really depends on each dancer and how much they stick to the "rules." You are correct that there is an extra beat in there for turns but that is only if the dancer stops on 5. But an on1 dancer can make their turn a bit longer and end on 4. Getting that extra beat. Look on YT and you will see a lot of on2 dancers stepping on the 4, 4&, 5. They don't always stick to stepping on 5 every time.
The guy is more or less correct. Most advanced dancers don't close the feet after break step and make short break steps no matter on1 or on2. Timing differences between on2 and "shifted on1" exist, but they are small. Not all on2 is the same either. I posted a few "shifted" videos in the past (with the same dancer) and nobody was sure what was the original timing and what was shifted timing ...
On the classes, things are always simplified, especially on lower level classes. One can't get all details at once
On the classes, things are always simplified, especially on lower level classes. One can't get all details at once
Your instructor is correct. If you turn the sound off and watch videos of good dancers, whether on1 or ET on2, you won't be able to tell difference.
Your instructor is also correct that many on1 instructors teach beginners to bring feet together and ET on2 instructors don't (this was discussed in another thread but I think I was told that on1 instructors don't teach bringing feet together either).
It is too difficult of a concept for beginners to understand what dancing ahead of the beat and behind the beat it. Their struggle is to find the beat itself. It is more difficult and unnecessary to explain beginners the differences like landing the foot (usually ball of the feet), rolling it to the heel, and then transferring the weight; or staying on the ball of your feet and then transferring the weight. Think of what is taught to beginners like Newtonian physics taught in high school. Where as dancing ahead/behind the beat or shifting timing or holding the beat, etc is more like special theory of relativity or quantum mechanics taught at University level physics course.
You may land on the beat correctly but may transfer your weight incorrectly making you off time. Or you may land on the beat early and transfer your weight correctly by holding on for the correct beat/timing. There are many variations.
Unfortunately most instructors are unable to explain difference between the rules and how they get applied during dancing.
When performing, there is a choreography. If a group performance, everyone needs to be in synch. Therefore the timing of everyone's step in a performance choreography is very important. Let's say a performance follower were to social dance the same song with a random good social dancers. The follower will be find the timing to be not exactly the same as in the performance choreography. The leader may be interpreting music differently.
You may land on the beat correctly but may transfer your weight incorrectly making you off time. Or you may land on the beat early and transfer your weight correctly by holding on for the correct beat/timing. There are many variations.
Unfortunately most instructors are unable to explain difference between the rules and how they get applied during dancing.
When performing, there is a choreography. If a group performance, everyone needs to be in synch. Therefore the timing of everyone's step in a performance choreography is very important. Let's say a performance follower were to social dance the same song with a random good social dancers. The follower will be find the timing to be not exactly the same as in the performance choreography. The leader may be interpreting music differently.
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See OP (2 becomes 6)
As I understand, the question was about basic difference between on1 and on2/et2 and not about micro timing you explained above, which is slightly varying from venue to venue and from dancer to dancer
However, even in that case (talking more precise about timing), although some people might make a dissertation about it and divide beats to halves, quarters etc, sometimes things are not that complicated. For instance in BR waltz, current definition (or one of them), on beat 1, you are "on the foot" meaning 100% weight on that foot and 0 on other, simple like that ... and actually it's the same with et2 on beat 1 (as danced by part of NY crowd at least) - you are "on the foot"...
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It will derail the thread but what is "100% weight on that foot" - only on the ball of the foot, equally distributed along whole palm of the feet, on the heel, etc?
Also BR waltz is codified. Therefore may be there exists a consensus among the teachers and judges. In A/T these can be very intricate topic as you advance. There is enough variances in A/T's teachers on the simple walk - pushing of the floor, how the foot lands, how weight is transferred on landing, in the middle of the step, yada, yada!It will derail the thread but what is "100% weight on that foot" - only on the ball of the foot, equally distributed along whole palm of the feet, on the heel, etc?
It's very simple ...assuming you are 80kg and someone put a scale under your feet, a scale under one foot will show 80kg (probably even a bit more due to dynamics) and other will show 0 or some minimal pressure (due to BR aesthetics that you have to slide the foot along the floor or at least give an impression of doing that).
No, it's not written even in the newest BR standard books so you won't get the same answer from all teachers (from most you won't get any answer). It is however written in BR latin books, but not very precisely, so there are different interpretations of what is written as well. And it's not written in (rare) salsa books either ....
It's however not what OP asked, but if you look at things from this perspective, it's quite simple ... ball / heel / whatever is unimportant for definition of timing ...
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Francisco Fiko
Son
You are right. But you also have to clarify your terms:
The break step is so called because it is the step where the dancer changes direction, (as in one step forward, the next step backwards). Therefore a break consists of two opposite direction steps.
So on ET On2, the slow step IS the second step of the break.
On Power2 and On1, the slow step truly happens after the two steps of the break.
As for the timing of the slow steps when turning, it all depends on which turn you are executing. In some turns the slow happens before and in some, after, regardless of the pattern you are dancing.
There have been many disagreements with top flight Prof over the years sometimes bring abut changes.
@bulldog91
I would use the advice your instructor gave you. It's the same thing my instructors told me when I was converting from On1 to On2. Just shift everything by one beat.
If you are a convert like me, the biggest challenge initially will be fighting timing/muscle memory. Your feet will still want to do the moves On1 and you will have to be conscious when to take your break step.
Everything else about QQS, rhythm or weight transfer is stuff you can figure out later once you convert all your moves On2.
I would use the advice your instructor gave you. It's the same thing my instructors told me when I was converting from On1 to On2. Just shift everything by one beat.
If you are a convert like me, the biggest challenge initially will be fighting timing/muscle memory. Your feet will still want to do the moves On1 and you will have to be conscious when to take your break step.
Everything else about QQS, rhythm or weight transfer is stuff you can figure out later once you convert all your moves On2.
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Well, it was explanation for you because you asked what I mean, not explanation for beginners ... most beginners and not only beginners unfortunately have problems with something that sounds like very simple thing - transferring full weight from one foot to other foot on every step ... and yes, telling students to do it isn't enough, probably something more is needed ...
Jag75
Son Montuno
I don't agree at all with your instructor.
In on1, you absolutely perform the "slow" when your feet "together", and in on2 it occurs after the break step rock back. Having said that in on2 it's common to step on the conga beat, ie land the "1" before the actual 1 on the 8 or 8&. This adds fluidity to the basic step. You do have a choice though and can vary it if you want so that the stepping becomes more staccato (1,2,3 - 5,6,7) or more blended (8&,2,3 - 4&,6,7).
Hope this helps.
In on1, you absolutely perform the "slow" when your feet "together", and in on2 it occurs after the break step rock back. Having said that in on2 it's common to step on the conga beat, ie land the "1" before the actual 1 on the 8 or 8&. This adds fluidity to the basic step. You do have a choice though and can vary it if you want so that the stepping becomes more staccato (1,2,3 - 5,6,7) or more blended (8&,2,3 - 4&,6,7).
Hope this helps.
Jag75
Son Montuno
Having said that don't overthink it. Just keep going and use the counts 1-2-3, 5-6-7 whilst ensuring you're breaking on the 2 and the 6, and make *sure* you really get an understanding of the musical counts. Listen to salsa music everyday and practice tapping on the 2 and 6, on the 1 an 5, on the 3 and 7, on the 1,3,5,7, on all counts, on the 2,4,6,8, etc. This will make your timing 100x better in a matter of weeks.
Thanks for the tips--I agree one shouldn't overthink, but I guess it's interesting to me that on this thread there's so much disagreement over what seems to me like such a fundamental matter.
It is completely normal ... in the past, dance teaching was more formal so a boundary between correct and incorrect was more clear. Now it became more blurred. So pretty much all that matters is that your dancing is compatible with dancing of other people, which in turn means that in your area, most correct will be something taught by teachers in the area and learned by local dancers you are dancing with, no matter how incorrect it may be from viewpoint of someone outside that area or from viewpoint of some established dance theories ... which in turn means that your teacher is correct for you even if he is not in opinions of other people ...
Francisco Fiko
Son
All this means that since this days anyone who has taken more than three lessons can declare themselves to be a teacher; whole dance communities may or may not be dancing by the same standards of others, whether this standards are logical or not.
Another reason why all should be reminded that teaching dancing has important, albeit sometimes unintended, consequences.