The 360 Move

opm1s6

opm1s6

Son
The 360 Move (aka swing step)

So some people call it 360, some call it around the world, I honestly don't really care what they call it, but I have been working on really solidifying regardless of what move I've done before it. Ultimately, I really want to use this to interrupt my patterns, go into a stylish open break and then go into some musically driven movement. Anyway...

So I usually do this move after an inside turn, make sure I step forward with my right early on 5 and use our centripetal motion to step lightly (and close to wher you step on 5) before spinning around on 7. I've found that the length of your arms makes this move a little different for different leads. Taller guys, with longer arms (I'm 6'3") need to put their right arm in just a hair earlier after the inside turn and go deeper across the back. It's a slight difference, but I feel like it has made a big difference the earlier I go, before continiuing the centripetal force. Do people have any other advise before I start practicing this to no end across all my patterns?

Practice makes permanent, not perfect :P
 
opm1s6 said:
So some people call it 360, some call it around the world, I honestly don't really care what they call it, but I have been working on really solidifying regardless of what move I've done before it. Ultimately, I really want to use this to interrupt my patterns, go into a stylish open break and then go into some musically driven movement. Anyway...

So I usually do this move after an inside turn, make sure I step forward with my right early on 5 and use our centripetal motion to step lightly (and close to where you step on 5) before spinning around on 7. I've found that the length of your arms makes this move a little different for different leads. Taller guys, with longer arms (I'm 6'3") need to put their right arm in just a hair earlier after the inside turn and go deeper across the back. It's a slight difference, but I feel like it has made a big difference the earlier I go, before continuing the centrifugal force. Do people have any other advise before I start practicing this to no end across all my patterns?

Practice makes permanent, not perfect :P
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Mambosf's video (which you pointed) on this move shows two ways to lead it. This move is most effective (and fun) when picking up the follower from the free spin or any move where her momentum is such that it is just natural to turn her 360.

There is a technique to both the lead and the follow, otherwise it doesn't come of smoothly. I don't remember but with the follow I think it is about not stepping back but instead keeping the weight forward at the first turn (at 180 or end of the CBL part). The key thing for the leader to keep the pivot momentum (for lack of better word) in his lead going (or what you called continuing the centripetal motion). You are also absolutely right about getting the right arm across the followers back before she completes the turn (irrespective of height difference). I do this move very unconsciously that it is hard for me to think of how it breaks down in detail. Also remember that not all followers are adept at following 360 smoothly so many times it may not be your lead but her following that is a problem. In my experience most NYC level intermediates and above followers don't have any problem following it.

Are they teaching you the 360 turn technique in your performance training? It always gets taught since most performance choreographies use it. If not yet done, you can ask/suggest your instructors for half an hour exercise drill on just 360. I am assuming you will get to switch partners every 3-4 minutes so you will be able to get it down properly with different followers. That's the best way to solidify your 360s.

BTW 360 with inside turn is often used for traveling the stage during performances or on social floor if you want to move to a different spot without breaking the dance. Call it traveling 360.
 
ah yes!! my favourite move of all time!! i really don't care much for pretzel patterns or anything super complicated for that matter...if the pattern doesn't end with this move,it's not nearly as spectacular as one that does..

..anyway..for me, a few things helped. first thing is to realize that the girl has to help you out. she has to know the correct footwork and arm styling to make the move work properly. i like to make contact with her back just prior to her completing the spin. this does two things for me: it alerts her that a CBL of some kind is coming so she preps for it with the arm styling and it allows me to get the timing right.

also, you have to realize that you're not really rotating around the girl. she's being displaced slightly as well as revolving around the pivot point you're making with your right foot; both should be moving as a single unit. that's where her arm styling helps. as far as leading it goes, it has to be STRONG. your right arm has to strongly make the connection with her back and you have to bring her around as you pivot about your right foot. you have to keep her close to your body and you do this by maintaining the strong right arm position. remember, centripetal force pushes her away from you as you make your revolution so you have to overcome this by maintaining the strong right arm position to keep her close to you.
 
I only just started incorporating this move into my dancing after several years of seeing it being done. My incentive came after going to this year's summer salsa/mambo festival in Palm Springs and I noticed how all the better dancers were always using it.

I remember Shaka Brown also commenting on this move in this forum and he specifically said something about how it was one of the signs of an advanced dancer. Unfortunately, the salsa scene in my neck of the woods is very limited skill wise and I find that I pretty much have to go out of my way to learn/import new things here. Still, it's a great move and I'm having loads of fun with it!
 
i have a hard time believing it's that advanced of a move. It's actually quite easy to pull off once you understand how early you have to go and how close your feet need to stay, the rest kind of just works if you keep your right arm strong. I just need to practice it a ton more to really get the strength and momentum just right and think about how I'm going to move it into some of my current moves.

Any other tips?
 
It's an awesome move. From what I remember of informal observations of my nyc salsa buddies' development, I think it typically showed up in the guys' repertoires after about six to ten months of dancing. I wouldn't say it's an 'advanced move' per se but the better the guys are the smoother, cooler, easier, and more fun the move is. I love it when you can both pick up your outside legs and just keep rotating around the single axis of your inside legs.

I remember Staged saying there was a significant follower component to making this move work as well. He said he'd gotten up to 720 degrees of rotation with certain followers (not me!). I don't know all of that but I have found the move only works if I do my part to keep our axes close together (as noted by vata07 centrifugal* force is what ruins the move). I spent a lot of time early on screwing up guys' attempted 360s by keeping too much distance and trying to footwork around the turn.

(*not to be a pedant but 'centrum petare' = to seek the center while 'centrum fugere' = to flee the center)
 
vata07 said:
.....anyway..for me, a few things helped. first thing is to realize that the girl has to help you out. she has to know the correct footwork and arm styling to make the move work properly. i like to make contact with her back just prior to her completing the spin. this does two things for me: it alerts her that a CBL of some kind is coming so she preps for it with the arm styling and it allows me to get the timing right.
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Yes it helps if the follower knows how to do her own displacement, but there is no need whatsoever to have a specific arm line. Any arm position wher her arm is visible both to her and to him will do nicely.

vata07 said:
...also, you have to realize that you're not really rotating around the girl. she's being displaced slightly as well as revolving around the pivot point you're making with your right foot; both should be moving as a single unit. that's where her arm styling helps.
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To put it in simple terms, he leader should crossbody lead himself> All she does is to get out of his way; exatctly as he gets out of her way in a regular CBL.

vata07 said:
...as far as leading it goes, it has to be STRONG. your right arm has to strongly make the connection with her back and you have to bring her around as you pivot about your right foot. you have to keep her close to your body and you do this by maintaining the strong right arm position. remember, centripetal (sic) force pushes her away from you as you make your revolution so you have to overcome this by maintaining the strong right arm position to keep her close to you.
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No force or strenght is nesessary at all if both dancers are aware of what is going on. Guys who push or pull the girl in this tipe of move only make it harder for the follower to move back in CBL position.
 
Dancing on2? I recently got this cleared up in a private (I learned this move on 1 and just fudged it for the 2 for the last 4 years). The way I now do it, having just sent her north on a cbl inside (left) turn, I get the arm on her shoulder, but stay to the south of her for 6,7; then make a real snappy exchange of places on "and one" for a second CBL on 2.

Before this, I was heading around her on 5,6 and it meant that there was nothing much to do on 7 and 8.
 
Jones said:
To put it in simple terms, he leader should crossbody lead himself> All she does is to get out of his way; exatctly as he gets out of her way in a regular CBL..
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haha, actually this is simple terms...that's part of what i was trying to get at when i said girls need to help out in the pattern, its easier when the girls know their part.


Jones said:
No force or strenght is nesessary at all if both dancers are aware of what is going on. Guys who push or pull the girl in this tipe of move only make it harder for the follower to move back in CBL position.
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you misunderstood.."strong" does not equal "more force" in salsa. you're not pushing or pulling the girl anywhere. in this case, the strong arm position just means that the lead's right arm maintains integrity throughout the move so that he keeps the girl closer to him the whole time. if not, a combination of the centrifugal force and the girl getting out of his way sends her too far away from him for the finishing CBL position. i spent a good half an hour in a private going over this one single element.
 
I will have to come back to this after there is more discussion here. It was a topic I brought up in a techniques class, recently. I wanted to know the lead (how would I know to respond with 360 footwork) since it seems different guys are "leading" it differently. Well maybe it was me. Teacher said I did it just right. Socially, as soon as the move is over, I say that was a 360, I did it wrong.

I wonder if it isnt taught differently by different teachers or studios. I had a teacher in her studio teach it, but say she likes to call it a "run around". That move never felt like a 360 that my other teacher has in almost every pattern. That teacher never gives the follower's foot work, so I always improvised. Turns out he saves the followers 360 footwork for his lady's styling class. Luckily, I took that once and got the footwork. LOL

I am now sort of "watching" for it, since I am confused. Meaning, I am not sure I am picking up the lead properly or timely and adjusting my footsteps. I will see if there are any tips for me later in the discussion.

BTW when you say around-the-world I think of the right hand turn that keeps both follower's hands in the air. I have a teacher who also users the name "touch & go", but I think that is another "around-the-world" move w a variation to it.
 
Yeah sweavo, I only do on2.

what does the follow need to do to help?

As far as the steps, you actually can do this move with a single step on five with your five and pivot by then lefting your left leg and open your left knee out on the guys left turn into the 1. Umm the more advanced dancers do it on one step, while the intermediates seem to do it my way :P

RugKutta said:
I love it. This is going on my list of fav quotes on facebook :-)
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I wish I could take full credit for that, but it's a common saying in some of my circles here in NYC
 
sweavo said:
She feels something like an open break on 6-7, then on "and-one" she steps right foot to the south, tap left, then forward on 2 for the second cross body...
Click to expand...
why does your version sound like it uses more to-and-fro type motion as opposed to a circular motion.
 
opm1s6 said:
what does the follow need to do to help?

As far as the steps, you actually can do this move with a single step on five with your five and pivot by then lefting your left leg and open your left knee out on the guys left turn into the 1. Umm the more advanced dancers do it on one step, while the intermediates seem to do it my way :P
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Yeah, both dancers need to be on board to get the merry-go-round feel.

I seriously think it works best when I don't do any footwork at all. Just plant my inside foot, lift my outside foot, hold tight to his waist and go with the pivot. Hanging on is crucial because the move depends on a shared axis and he can't keep me close enough by himself if I'm not cooperating. Also if I try to step it out around him while he's pivoting I'm usually too slow and I drag us down.

When the move starts I almost always think I am going into my own double or triple inside turn because the guy indicates more momentum. It's a surprise when I get stopped after one and he uses the leftover momentum to get us both going.


sweavo said:
She feels something like an open break on 6-7, then on "and-one" she steps right foot to the south, tap left, then forward on 2 for the second cross body...
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Whoa, are we talking about the same move? In the version I know it's a

- regular CBL with slightly more energetic inside turn on the 2-3,
- he catches me/I whack into his arm on the end of the turn
- and transfer my momentum to the both of us;
- we both pick our outside feet up off the floor, and
- over 5-6-7-8 we rotate around the planted legs

(Alternatively he can be the axis and I can basic around him but that's not as much fun. But either way I don't think he has any footwork after planting forward on 3 and lifting his back foot?)

I can lead sequential CBLs that feel a little rotate-y but they're not quite the same as the 360 (which I definitely cannot lead).


Actually my SO and I have big problems with this move. Somehow my foot gets stuck behind his and instead of rotating together I end up twisting around him and losing my center. I dunno what our issue is but maybe someone here can troubleshoot us.
 
barrefly said:
What's the difference between a 360 and a pivot turn? Is a pivot turn considered a 360 as well?
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A right question just in time:)

I was about to reply to Noobster that the merry-go-round move she is describing (both turning around the share axis on one leg) is a different from what is normally referred to as 360. The 360 does require knowing how and where to step. The turning around shared axis may start the same way, but basically you are using each others momentum to keep rotating around the shared axis.

I see both Sweavo and Opm describe it and I kind of agree with their leader's step breakdown. But for someone who wants to get a breakdown of technique reading the footwork description is not helpful ..Sweavo lost me at north ! I had no reference which side is north and south:)

I remember someone had a thread on 360 earlier and posted MamboSF video. Posting videos will be most helpful. I spent 15 minutes looking at MamboSF videos as well as searching on salsaforum. I remember MamboSF had two variations of 360 (what he calls NY and stage/west coast style)

Video of how Opm described it, though this one isn't starting from inside turn:

youtube.com/watch?v=cOGZAjbeJdw (Common with NY style leads)

For those on1: (is that Spanish?)youtube.com/watch?v=w_y2F9e1FEM (from 00:14 through 00:26 CBL inside turn into 360)
youtube.com/watch?v=ru_gsg2UkQ8
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Okay found MamboSF version since he breaks it down:

NY Style: youtube.com/watch?v=TSBJ9CadnSU (he calls it whip! no wonder I couldn't find it easily)

*he leads her in to a free spin from copa. It could be any kind of free spin. Works equally well from the CBL inside turn

Same as previous video but his demonstration of footwork is better. Look how he does 6, 7 (catches his partner with right hand). The "&" of "7,&" footsteps for the leaders is where the smoothness comes in.

Assuming you are dancing on2: The trick for the follower is to hold 1 in place (kinda..some instructors can chip in here) after the leader brings you around on 7,& and then step forward with left foot on 2 to walk cross body to complete the 360. It natural for followers to step forward with right foot on 1 forward while doing normal CBL. However to follow the 360 properly you send your hips back on 1 while getting ready to step forward with left on 2.

Traveling 360 Style (or Stage/West Coast as per MamboSF): youtube.com/watch?v=v532RYCIouw

Used for traveling across the floor. Not sure why he says it is west coast style. If you find the 360 in the previous video hard to lead then you can use this alternate footwork to do 360 in place.
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The merry-go-round move that Noobster mentioned (both leader & follower rotate around a shared axis) also starts the same way. Notice his 7,&... except you don't bring the left feet down on 1. Watch it at 1:21 or better still at 1:31 in the first MamboSF video (whip video). At 1:31 (or 1:21) his left foot is in air as he is turning around to land on 1. Instead of landing the 1, continue the momentum where she starts turning (on her single leg) using his momentum.

Another variation of merry-go-round: youtube.com/watch?v=ia0UU5OR-BE (thanks to MacMoto, found the clip in "how to do a 360 CBL" thread) you can watch Oliver get into it at the end of normal 360 (btw that clip has Oliver doing 360 several times) around 06:08 where he is on the one leg rotating, as Luda walks around him.

Click to expand...
 
MacMoto said:
Also, here's an older thread on the subject:
:arrow: How to do a 360 CBL
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I had seen this thread but couldn't find it when I searched it earlier !!!

I went to search, typed in 360, choose titles only and all forums; and hit the search button. Nothing shows up. Did some variations like posts, threads, etc. In one search I did get three threads but not this one.

Mac how do you find all these old threads !!! Do you have a special access to hidden secret search buttons as a moderator ? :P :P
 
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