Is this song a son?

#22
The song should be Frank Bambara - Mi Guaguanco

http://www.descarga.com/cgi-bin/db/20861.10?SDeprMmE;;72

It's a New York style traditional cuban sound.
Thanks. I googled Mi guaguanco but didn't find this one. There are plenty of songs with Mi guaguanco in the title though! You must have a huge cd collection to be able to answer as many song ID questions as you do. Very impressive!
 
#24
Both of the songs in the first post are indeed Son - but under what subcategory they fall into, I'm going to let TM to explain that :)
Now you know what " Son " sounds like, what are you going to dance to it, if anything , differently ?

Lets add to that, a Son Guajira rhythm included in a salsa song .

Heres my point.. knowing the difference in composition, is one of the main reasons that will give you the knowledge to "improvise ".. but.. you MUST master basic dance concepts first . Many try to put icing on the proverbial cake BEFORE they have baked it !! .

As a newer convert to Salsa, learn to just " dance " and enjoy to all the styles of music that is played at your local venues; ask the DJs what the music style is that they just played( many may not know ! ) .

Thats all part of the cake baking process..
 
#26
Now you know what " Son " sounds like, what are you going to dance to it, if anything , differently ?

Lets add to that, a Son Guajira rhythm included in a salsa song .
Aren't you planning to upload a video of you dancing guajira? I'd really like to see it. As far as I know I've never seen anyone dance it.

Heres my point.. knowing the difference in composition, is one of the main reasons that will give you the knowledge to "improvise ".. but.. you MUST master basic dance concepts first . Many try to put icing on the proverbial cake BEFORE they have baked it !! .

As a newer convert to Salsa, learn to just " dance " and enjoy to all the styles of music that is played at your local venues; ask the DJs what the music style is that they just played( many may not know ! ) .

Thats all part of the cake baking process..
Good advice. Certainly a person can't learn everything all at once. The most important thing is to maintain the joy in your dancing and not stress out about things to where it becomes a chore.

My personal opinion is that in general new dancers need to spend more time listening to the music. I think people tend to focus so much on steps and moves and technique at first that they often neglect the music. IMO listening to the music all the time, month after month, year after year will in the end give you more than any class on "musicality".

I think the longer a person is into dancing the more they drift into looking at the music and looking into the roots and the various component parts that make up salsa. There is so much to discover in Latin music because it is so culturally rich.

As for changing how one dances, I prefer to dance son to son, or let me qualify that. I prefer to dance son to slow son and to slow timba as well. Or at least to dance casino contratiempo. When son gets fast the dance gets bouncy and I really am not a bouncy dancer, so I prefer to switch to casino on1.
 
#27
Aren't you planning to upload a video of you dancing guajira? I'd really like to see it.

As far as I know I've never seen anyone dance it.


.
Its not on the Vid. I'm currently doing.. its quite common in some Latino clubs ( Tampa for e.g. ). Its very simple in construction, and many people when Guajira is played, mistake it for Cha Cha .

I will attempt to put another Vid together including it; I say " attempt " because I'm at the mercy of my student partners availability .
 
#31
Its not on the Vid. I'm currently doing.. its quite common in some Latino clubs ( Tampa for e.g. ). Its very simple in construction, and many people when Guajira is played, mistake it for Cha Cha .

I will attempt to put another Vid together including it; I say " attempt " because I'm at the mercy of my student partners availability .
OK looking forward to it. I will just have to be patient. I will not be getting over to tampa any time soon :)
 
#32
.. I was talking about myself.
Gee thank you for such a wonderful compliment! If the best compliments thread weren't confined to the dance section that would make my list of best compliments.

But really the best thing to do, beyond listening to as much music as possible at all times of the day and night (my answer to everything), is to check out all of Kevin's on-line articles in the timbapedia at timba.com. I've mentioned the clave articles before, which are worth it just for their humor value.

People may think that since it's Timba.com it's all about timba and therefore not of interest to regular salsa fans. But in order to understand how Cuban music ended up where it is, Kevin went all the way back to about 1900 and has worked his way forward from there. So there is a great amount of fascinating information about much more than you might expect.

You get a lot of information in the "Roots of timba", which is a series of on-line articles, including audio samples, beginning about 1940 with Arsenio Rodriguez (Volume I) and working it's way through Van Van's songo period, Irakere and Ritmo Oriental (Volume II - 1969-77). And Volume III is a year-by-year look at significant groups/songs from 1977-1989.

I've mentioned the "beyond salsa piano" series of books before, because they start way back with changüí tres patterns at the turn of the 1900s and as Kevin puts it Volume I "covers the origins of the tumbao concept using transcriptions from genres -- such as changüí, danzón, son and son montuno -- which pre-date the use of piano in Cuban music." He works his way up to timba with a very interesting section in Volume V about the differences between salsa and timba piano, and then goes into a series of books transcribing the tumbaos played by Melón in Issac Delgado's group. And he is just now completing the books about Pupy Pedroso. I was proofreading the biography today and it is really amazing to read about the atmosphere in which Pupy grew up. He had la créme de la créme of Cuban music hanging out in his house when he was a child. And the old photos from Pupy's private collection, which Kevin has painstakingly restored, are almost worth the price of the book for a timba geek like me! LOL

Ah and for the percussionists the Calixto Oviedo series is out. It was on Ned Sublett's list of recommended books from 2010, which is a much better recommendation than anything I could say. Again it starts early with timbales in danzón and moves forward into the technique of using a drum kit and timbales plus high-hat for which Calixto is famous. He has also had an amazing history sitting in with the "house band" at the Cabaret Parisienne at Hotel Nacional at only 9 years old and later playing with groups such as Pacho Alonso, Adalberto Álvarez and of course NG La Banda.

The "Beyond salsa" books themselves have to be bought, since they are actual instructional books for musicians and not just historical analyses like the timba roots series. But you can download free promos of each book to see what they are like and decide if you're interested in buying them. The artists involved get paid for each book sold, so yes the money gets back to the musicians.

Anyway, that's the best place to really dig deep into all kinds of info about son, son montuno and other Cuban music complete with audio samples and music transcriptions. Even if you don't like timba, there's plenty of other stuff there as well. ...Or you could just read my posts LOL

http://www.timba.com/encyclopedias
 
#33
I asked Orlando Fiol about what are the differences between the various types of son say son, versus son-montuno versus guajira versus guaguancó and here is a very brief answer.

Basically, any slow to mid tempo song emphasizing the ponche can be considered son. Of course, traditional son has no congas or piano, no timbales or drum kit and only one trumpet. Arsenio's son-montuno precisely expanded the traditional son instrumentation to include two or three trumpets, piano and tumbadora. But he also changed the accentuation of son from the clave to a syncopated figure with its own contratiempo footwork. Son guajira usually refers to music played with guitar and laúd, based on a I-IV-V harmonic progression. Arsenio's guaguancó de salón could in some sense be considered part of the son complex in terms of tempo and typical bass tumbaos. But the song form is very different and the lyrics usually salute legendary figures or entire barrios. In that sense, you might not be able to distinguish this type of guaguancó without understanding its lyrics.

I also asked about the difference between the mambos (horns, not mambo as a genre) since that is one of the things that is very noticeable for me, and lots of others I think. So here is another very brief answer.

For now, I'll say that Cuban mambos tend to be more syncopated, almost changüí-like, but also more melodic, whereas Puerto Rican mambos tend to incorporate more overtly jazzy phrases within a slightly different harmonic language.

And between PR and NY mambos:

There are definite differences. Some arrangers contend that NY horn writing is more influenced by American pop and soul, while Puerto Rican writing is mellower.
 
#34
Hi Timberamayor!

Thanks for posting this, it is really helpful. I don't know quite what 'ponce' means in this case, but I can relate very well to Arsenio Rodriguez' music and the description of Guajira is what I also thought identified it.

Also interesting to hear the guaguanco de salon described, as I have never found a real explanation for how this relates to the son.

The description of the differences in the mambo section is also something I can relate to because I've always thought of f.ex. Arsenio's horns/mambos as more 'afro' than horns in typical NY-cuban son montunos. Changui is probably more accurate!

The differences between NY and PR mambos is interesting. I need to pay more attention to that, but also I think there must be quite noticeable differences between arranger's personal styles, regardless of location, no?
 
#35
Hi Timberamayor!

Thanks for posting this, it is really helpful. I don't know quite what 'ponce' means in this case, but I can relate very well to Arsenio Rodriguez' music and the description of Guajira is what I also thought identified it.
Basically the 'ponche' is the 4 and the 8, which are strongly emphasized in son (and even in timba). Cuban dancers sometimes emphasize these beats with a tap when dancing casino. In son you actually take a step on these beats (since you are dancing contratiempo) and emphasize them with your upper body motion. Some people divide the ponche into primary and secondary ponche with the primary being on the 3 side of the clave. So you could say that by Orlando's definition any mid to slow tempo song emphasizing the 4 and 8 especially the 4 (third strike of the 3-side) can be considered son. that's a pretty broad criterion.

He also sent me the prospectus for his doctoral dissertation which is going to be one of those things I can totally geek out on. It goes into more detail about guaguancó de salón. But it probably won't be done for quite some time since he's just in the prospectus stage right now. He recommended also reading David García's book about Arsenio Rodriguez.

The description of the differences in the mambo section is also something I can relate to because I've always thought of f.ex. Arsenio's horns/mambos as more 'afro' than horns in typical NY-cuban son montunos. Changui is probably more accurate!
Yeah I think horns are actually one of the most obvious difference between music styles.

The differences between NY and PR mambos is interesting. I need to pay more attention to that, but also I think there must be quite noticeable differences between arranger's personal styles, regardless of location, no?
I would hope so. I know that in Cuba bands always talk about their "sello" and it's very important for a new band to distinguish itself. You have to prove that you have something of your own to contribute and if people feel like you are too close to someone else's style they will be pretty tough on you. Maybe that's one reason that covers are the exception rather than the rule in Cuban music, even with new bands.

Maykel Blanco was heavily criticized for sounding too much like Pupy Pedroso in his piano playing and for using harmonies and harmonic progressions that are associated with Van Van and Manolito.
 
#37
OT.

Doesnt "Se Parece Aquel" tell about this? Maybe not directly though.
Yep and La identidad by Azúcar Negra, but don't say I told you :) I don't think the bandleaders want it known that they were writing about this in case some fans get upset. They don't want to come off as bad guys. But musical rivalries have been a great source of songs as in the "charanguerra" between charanga forever and charanga habanera over who was the "real" charanga. Of course David won that one, but there were some great songs that came out of it.
Sube y baja
El charanguero mayor
El bla bla bla
Somos la charanga (Dice Formell)
La Charanga Soy Yo
Como pasan la cosas

So the winners are the fans :)

If you check out the lyrics to Se parece aquel it's not hard to figure out

Pepito: Existe gente que me critica
Existen otros que no hablan mal
También están los que siempre imitan
Hasta mi forma de caminar

Y está, compadre, él que vive y muere
Buscando donde se va a apoyar
Siempre esperando lo que otro invente
Para con eso poder luchar

Coro: Se parece a aquel, se parece a mí
se parece al otro que vive allí
(2 veces)

Pepito: Si ve que aquel se viste bonito
El quiere hacerlo por otro la’o
También se ríe como su amiguito, ja
Y ahora pretende hacer mi tumbao
Un consejo sano no viene mal
Y no lo tomes sin mucho embullo
Trata de ser más original
Y suelta un poco lo que no es tuyo


Coro: Se parece a aquel
Pepito: Vamos pa’llá, ja
Coro: Se parece a mí
se parece al otro que vive allí

Pepito: Como pueden ver no es un buen compañero
Es un espíritu recortero
Coro: Se parece a aquel, se parece a mí
Pepito: Qué majadero
Coro: Se parece al otro que vive allí

Pepito: Quiere hacerse santo, vestirse de blanco
Ponerse collares, buscarse un padrino para hacerse fino
Coro: Se parece a aquel
Pepito: Je, es un chico divino
Coro: Se parece a mí
Se parece al otro que vive allí

Pepito: ¡Ahora! Y ahora pa’ que puedas tener sabor
Busca un muñeco que sea como yo, compadre
Coro: Se parece a aquel, se parece a mí
Se parece al otro que vive allí

Pepito: Y cuidado no te griten en la calle
“Suelta Zorrullo eso que no es tuyo”

(Mambo)

¡Oye y pase tremenda pena!
¡Arriba que ahora vamos pa’llá!
Dice

Pepito: Escucha
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Ahora te voy a cantar
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Pa’ que puedas comprender
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Para ser original
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Eso tiene que nacer
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: ¡Mira! No batearás
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Que va. Nunca un jonrón
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Como lo hizo Marquetti
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Nunca cantarás el son
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Como lo hizo Cuní
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Aprende bien la lección
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Que ya yo me la aprendí
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Tú no actuarás como Chaplin
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Y no filmarás el Chicuelo
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Ni como Pavarotti
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Cantarás el Rigoletto
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Perdón si eso a ti te hiere
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: ¿? la verdad
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Original fue Da Vinci
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Y la música de Bach
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Y no me digas que eso es mentira
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Que esas son las cositas ricas
Coro: Oh oh
Pepito: Y lo grado bueno que tiene la vida

(Mambo)

¡Vamos!
Confesiones de grande
Ya te hablé de los clásicos
Ahora voy pa la’ calle
Ahora voy pa’ la calle

Coro: Te equivocaste boncó
Pepito: Dime si no
Coro: Ay, que tú imitas ese no soy yo
Pepito: Sal de ese mundo lleno de ilusiones
Que la sardina no se parece al tiburón

Coro: Te equivocaste boncó
Pepito: No señor
Coro: Ay, que tú imitas ese no soy yo
Pepito: Tú te confundiste
Yo soy Pepito al de la Florida
Guajirito soy, soy

Coro: Te equivocaste boncó
Pepito: Mira o si no
Coro: Ay, que tú imitas ese no soy yo
Pepito: Pregúntale a Pupy
Que cuando nació allá en la Timba
Ya tenía su sabor

Coro: Te equivocaste boncó
Pepito: A ver
Coro: Ay, que tú imitas ese no soy yo
Pepito: Arriba Pupy tumba
Pa’ que baile Cuba

Coro: Ay, que tú imitas ese no soy yo
Pepito: Ay no soy yo, no soy yo
Coro: Ay, que tú imitas ese no soy yo
(3 veces)

Pepito: Dime si no
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Ese que tú imitas
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Ese que tú quieres ser
Coro: No soy yo
Papito: Que anda viviendo en la calle
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Una ilusión de papel
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Si yo, ni estaba arriba ni estaba abajo
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Ni en la pata del guanajo
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Ni en el nido del sinsonte
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Ni en el río ni en el monte
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Ese que tú dices
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Ese que tú quieres ser
Coro: No soy yo

Pepito: No soy aquel que tú andas diciendo
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: No soy aquel que tú andas mirando
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: ¡Oye!
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: Sácame los ojos de arriba ya
Coro: No soy yo
Pepito: ¡Vamos!

Coro: No soy yo
(hasta el fin)
 

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