End of all racism thread, statistics

#1
There are stories about how good dancers are from this European country or that country. The more I learn the more I tend to believe that it's basically a function urban population. Not simple function probably, but quite sure. Let the numbers from Wikipedia speak. Also we all know that Istanbul is partly in Asia.

1 Istanbul Turkey 14,804,116 (many good dancers, many parties, likes performancing, has several salsa festivals, on1/on2)
2 Moscow Russia 13,197,596 (many good dancers, many parties, likes performancing, had several salsa festivals - struggle lately, cuban/on2/on1)
3 London United Kingdom 8,787,892 (many good dancers, some parties, very versatile, all styles, several festivals)
4 Saint Petersburg Russia 5,323,300 (many good dancers, some parties, had festival, on2/cuban/on1)
5 Berlin Germany 3,671,000 (many good dancers, some parties, has several festivals, all styles)
6 Madrid Spain 3,165,235 (many good dancers, some parties, all styles)
7 Kiev Ukraine 2,909,491 (many good dancers, some parties, all styles, several festivals)
8 Rome Italy 2,879,038 (many good dancers, some parties, all styles)
9 Paris France 2,241,346 (many good dancers, many parties, all styles)
10 Minsk Belarus 1,949,400 (some good dancers, few parties, on2/cuban/on1)
11 Bucharest Romania 1,883,144 (many good dancers, some parties, all styles)
12 Vienna Austria 1,877,836 (some good dancers, few parties)
13 Budapest Hungary 1,759,407 (some good dancers, few parties)
14 Hamburg Germany 1,758,041 (have parties, has festival, have not heard about good dancers)
15 Warsaw Poland 1,748,916 (many good dancers, many parties, several festivals)
16 Barcelona Spain 1,602,386 (many good dancers, many parties, I think they'll start festival this year?)
17 Munich Germany 1,521,678 (many good dancers, many parties, cuban festivals)
18 Kharkiv Ukraine 1,431,565 (some good dancers, not many parties)
19 Milan Italy 1,362,695 (some good dancers, almost no parties, several festivals)
20 Prague Czech Republic 1,280,208 (some good dancers, few parties, several festivals)

As you can see pretty much top 20 cities by population has it what's needed. Russia have problems with festivals recently, I think it's generation change in orgs and they need to adjust to having less money. Cities with many migrants have all salsa styles represented, cities with less - depends on local schools. Prague is more into zouk than salsa. Minsk into kizomba/bachata, but it's changing. Milan into dancesport. Istanbul and Moscow too, but they are so big, there are enough people for social scene as well. I have not danced in Madrid, Rome, Vienna, Hamburg, Barcelona, Kharkiv, and Milan, but I know good dancers from there. I can recommend all cities for salsa travel except Hamburg, Kharkiv, and Milan. Minsk, Prague needs bigger event/better planning to go there.

I could go on, but even cities under half a million in Europe has salsa festivals and good dancers. Timișoara with 300 000 has a festival. But over all the size matters. What matters most seems to me, if there are people who care to organize something.

I know two cities in Europe where locals don't complain about salsa scene. Rostov-on-Don (1,100,000) and Kaunas (300,000). All the top cities in this list have some complains. So it's about people, attitudes. Not so much about money.

Sorry about the title, it's just provocation. But I do believe that race/nationality does not matter much for successful scene and good dancers.
 
#2
Public transportation options and cost of living/income for youth is important though. In places where young and poor have to live far away and it's hard to get to dances, it's harder to maintain scenes. Or if they can't afford events.
 
#3
Public transportation options and cost of living/income for youth is important though. In places where young and poor have to live far away and it's hard to get to dances, it's harder to maintain scenes. Or if they can't afford events.
What do you mean dansport? Like performance teams etc?

It is also a population question, typically younger crowds are drawn to salsa so aging areas will have less dancing.
 
#5
What do you mean dansport? Like performance teams etc?

It is also a population question, typically younger crowds are drawn to salsa so aging areas will have less dancing.
The term " Dansport " was coined to influence entry into the Olympics. Now, ALL BR studios ( or most ) use the term as a distinction from other types of dance schools, and most do teach a social level. In matter of fact, most schools are highly dependant on the social side of dance , particularly in the States.
 
#6
I am not sure if you are trying to make a specific point or various points.

I think the single biggest influence is how active is a local scene. Naturally urban areas will have an advantage. An active scene goes half way in making dancers better. Other half is the culture of the local scene. Some scenes produce strong dancers and others don't (in relative numbers).

All things being equal, certain geographies produce relatively better dancers. Some produce better leaders and some better followers. It can't be explained away by populations density alone.

Speaking as a leader, the followers from -South Korea and Japan in Asia, central/eastern Europe (including Russia), NY/LA in USA - are relatively stronger in a sense that they have more good followers. Part of it is sheer population number (e.g. NY and LA), a part of it is cultural (e.g. central/eastern Europe emphasis on learning dancing at young age), a part ethnic/national traits (e.g. tendency in Japan and Korea to be diligent, focus on repetition and practice, leading to good technical dancers).
 
#7
I think the numbers here are skewed towards the number of good *female* dancers from a male perspective.

If you are a male and traveling around Europe, you are likely be to in dance heaven no matter where you go.

I would say there are more good male crossbody salsa dancers in my home town of Toronto than in Vienna/Budapest/Prague combined and it's not even close.

As a male, I prefer dancing in Europe precisely because of the higher ratio of good female-to-male salsa dancers. You might find 10 above average female dancers and 1 decent male lead who can lead them.

So speaking as a male, crossbody salsa dancer, thanks for the recommendations :D
 
#8
I think the numbers here are skewed towards the number of good *female* dancers from a male perspective.

If you are a male and traveling around Europe, you are likely be to in dance heaven no matter where you go.

I would say there are more good male crossbody salsa dancers in my home town of Toronto than in Vienna/Budapest/Prague combined and it's not even close.

As a male, I prefer dancing in Europe precisely because of the higher ratio of good female-to-male salsa dancers. You might find 10 above average female dancers and 1 decent male lead who can lead them.

So speaking as a male, crossbody salsa dancer, thanks for the recommendations :D
Agree.

I too think they there are far more number of better leaders in North America overall compared to Europe. It had some pockets like Paris, but some (non NY/LA) metro areas in North America will beat Paris in number of good leaders.
 
#9
Agree.

I too think they there are far more number of better leaders in North America overall compared to Europe. It had some pockets like Paris, but some (non NY/LA) metro areas in North America will beat Paris in number of good leaders.
Is it like West Coast /NYC where just more guys come to parties than girls?
I wondered if this can be explained with migrant population, where migrants from orthodox xtian/muslim countries allow men to dance with strangers, but frown upon women doing this. And in London where tons of immigrants are from eastern Europe, where women are free to dance, more girls come out and dance.
 
#10
Is it like West Coast /NYC where just more guys come to parties than girls?
I wondered if this can be explained with migrant population, where migrants from orthodox xtian/muslim countries allow men to dance with strangers, but frown upon women doing this. And in London where tons of immigrants are from eastern Europe, where women are free to dance, more girls come out and dance.
North American men are quite motivated to improve their dance skills, technique, perform and compete. They also love to social dance, but they cross train a lot in other dance styles.

European men, to be perfectly blunt, dance to meet girls and have little motivation to improve as they can impress their female counterparts much more easily. In contrast, European girls have smaller egos than North American girls and are more insecure about their dancing, but are actually much better than they think.

Not trying to put anyone down, but this seems like the case in the majority of European cities I've visited, especially in the less progressive Eastern European cities where dancing is still considered too girly. Some of the best trained dancers are from Europe/Asia, however there is often a huge dropoff in skill between the top dancers and the next rung of dancers, in Europe at least.

In Canada and I suspect in American cities, there seems to be a more defined dance syllabus and many more higher advanced and high intermediate male dancers are produced.

Of course there are many crap North American male dancers too, but I find the overall level of European male leads apalling.

I am not sure how much culture/religion plays a role. The more multicultural the city, the more homogenized groups form and the more accepted it becomes to dance regardless of religion. There are more multicultural cities in North America than in Europe and I find that big metropolitan North American cities to be lead heavy.
 
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#11
Is it like West Coast /NYC where just more guys come to parties than girls?
I wondered if this can be explained with migrant population, where migrants from orthodox xtian/muslim countries allow men to dance with strangers, but frown upon women doing this. And in London where tons of immigrants are from eastern Europe, where women are free to dance, more girls come out and dance.
I am assuming the migrants you are referring to is Europe? In North America it would be a non-factor since, I haven’t come across leads from the migrants you are referring to. I am sure there are some but that would be isolated. The west coast is mostly East Asian/Latino/Europeans and others.

I have danced with some followers from regions you are referring to in Europe and they were pretty good, both who had immigrated and those that were visiting for the congress.
 
#12
The more I learn the more I tend to believe that it's basically a function urban population. .
Are there any outliers in Europe?
As mentioned by others, NY and LA are the No 1 and No 2 metro region by size so they would be expected to be No 1 and No 2 for number of salsa dancers. However they are also, along with SF, the most expensive metros in the US which may impact how many events can be organized.

Here is the list for US metros:
1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, 20,153,634
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA 13,310,447
3 Chicago-9,512,999
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, 7,233,323
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX 6,772,470
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, 6,131,977
7 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, 6,066,387
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, 5,789,700
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, 4,794,447
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, 4,679,166
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ 4,661,537
13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,527,837
14 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI 4,297,617
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,798,902
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, 3,551,036
17 San Diego-Carlsbad, 3,317,749
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, 3,032,171
19 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO 2,853,077
20 St. Louis, MO-IL 2,807,002
 
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#13
Are there any outliers in Europe?
As mentioned by others, NY and LA are the No 1 and No 2 metro region by size so they would be expected to be No 1 and No 2 for number of salsa dancers. However they are also, along with SF, the most expensive metros in the US which may impact how many events can be organized.

Here is the list for US metros:
1 New York-Newark-Jersey City, 20,153,634
2 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim, CA 13,310,447
3 Chicago-9,512,999
4 Dallas-Fort Worth-Arlington, 7,233,323
5 Houston-The Woodlands-Sugar Land, TX 6,772,470
6 Washington-Arlington-Alexandria, 6,131,977
7 Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA
8 Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach, 6,066,387
9 Atlanta-Sandy Springs-Roswell, 5,789,700
10 Boston-Cambridge-Newton, 4,794,447
11 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward, 4,679,166
12 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale, AZ 4,661,537
13 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario, CA 4,527,837
14 Detroit-Warren-Dearborn, MI 4,297,617
15 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, WA 3,798,902
16 Minneapolis-St. Paul-Bloomington, 3,551,036
17 San Diego-Carlsbad, 3,317,749
18 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, 3,032,171
19 Denver-Aurora-Lakewood, CO 2,853,077
20 St. Louis, MO-IL 2,807,002
You know it better, but as far as I know these are the areas of many good dancers in the usa. Is any major salsa habitat left off the list?
 
#14
You know it better, but as far as I know these are the areas of many good dancers in the usa. Is any major salsa habitat left off the list?
You covered the top 20 metro areas that I think probably covers the biggest areas by population. If I eyeball, I think your top 20 list accounts for 110M+ of 330M+ people in USA. In other words you have already covered 35% of USA population. I am sure the % share of younger population (less than 35) is likely to be much higher than 35%. Some of the metro areas consist of multiple big cities or state like SF Bay area and NY or Minneapolis areas as well cover more geographical area than half of the European countries. But there are still some areas that haven't made it like Austin and San Antonio in Texas, Orlando in FL, Portland, OR and Raliegh, NC, few others with very good salser@s and salsa scene. Also smaller scenes (only in comparison) like SLC, UT or Sacramento CA which produce good dancers.

Canada has a lot of dancers too from Toronto (which is as big as Chicago), Vancouver and other cities in Canada.
Some of the smaller university towns also have salsa scenes though pretty small.
 
#15
Is any major salsa habitat left off the list?
In Europe: Frankfurt, Zurich, Vienna
The core cities are too small to make the population list even though their economic impact is much greater than most of the top 20 by population.

Sooo.. maybe GDP per capita is a better measure than population. Ordinary workers who have less time and money for fun might not make it out to salsa events whereas towns with a lot of high pay jobs means people have more money (maybe time) to do stuff.
 
#16
I know two cities in Europe where locals don't complain about salsa scene. Rostov-on-Don (1,100,000) and Kaunas (300,000). All the top cities in this list have some complains. So it's about people, attitudes. Not so much about money.
Ok, they complain on Rostov too. :)
 
#17
I do not understand the descriptive statistics the OP posted. I see the population of the city, but how does that translate to the number of dancers? Naturally there will be some countries where dancing in general has deeper roots and will be practiced by more people.

I also do not understand the terms used"many", "some" and "few". Compared to the population or did you simply compare the actual number of parties / good dancers?

How do you define a good dancer anyway? I mean, dancesport has strict rules on how to judge the participants, but a social scane does not. I would like to know who to consider good.

I am not trying to bash this thread, but since the goal here was to compare dance scenes using statistics, it is key to understand how those statistics were created, what they actually represent.
 
#18
I believe we're talking about studio trained dancers. My measure of good refers to someone who can keep the beat, is smooth to dance with, is easy to lead or to follow, is musical, someone who can dance small as well as big in any environment, can improvise, adapt, has good technique... basically someone who has trained a lot and has lots of social dance experience. That is a good dancer.
 

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