How can I improve my dancing? Feedback please :)

MacMoto

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Staff member
I've been thinking about starting this thread for some time but always chickened out... until now. This is the first year in my 8 years of dancing that I feel I'm regressing rather than improving (not that I was particularly great to start with :roll:), and I want to do something to reverse that.

What can I do to improve my dancing - both in terms of following and leading?

I don't have any good video clips to show*, but since so many of you SFers have danced with me and have first-hand knowledge of how I dance, I'm looking here for feedback based on what you *felt* when dancing with me, rather than what you see on video. I reckon I must have danced with at least 30 SFers in the last 12 months, and I'm looking for feedback from every one of you, whether on1, on2 or cuban (or merengue/bachata/cha cha :lol:), man or woman, newbie or superstar.

E.g.,

As a follower, am I
- heavy? too light? rigid? limp? inconsistent? unresponsive? anticipating/backleading? lacking balance? any annoying habits?

As a leader, am I
- unclear? too forceful? lacking frame? any timing issues? any annoying habits?

Thanks for your help!


* Okay, I believe there is a video of me dancing with olamalam on FB if you insist...
 
Ohh it's hard to criticize you but I have to do that since you are my friend :)

And I asked your criticism regarding my dancing and benefitted from that. I started on1/on2 salsa song thread and I've already ordered Peter Fige's musicality DVD. Next time I hope you'll find a more musical dancer :)

First of all, what do you mean with regression? What made you think that? If you felt it yourself, then you must know which aspects of your dancing went worse.
If you think that your dancing is regressing both as a leader and follower in all those dances you've listed with all aspects (following, styling, posture, balance etc.), I would say this might be something psychological. Maybe you became more perfectionist that actually you are.

Or you might feel regression on a specific aspect but you dont want to mention it in order not to give us a hint.

As a follower, am I

Honestly, I've always enjoyed a lot my dances with you. IMO, you are definitely not a heavy follow but followers can always be lighter than they are. So maybe you can improve your dancing by trying to be lighter. I have no idea how to do that though. Ask Brownskin :)

As a leader, am I

Posture maybe. But since you are a lady, you don't need to worry about that. You are sometimes leaning to left or right while spinning ladies but it's something to do with arm and core muscles. I don't think that you wanna start weightlifting to improve that. Just never mind :)


* Okay, I believe there is a video of me dancing with olamalam on FB if you insist...

We can make another recording in salsa central to compare. Since I improved since from Zurich festival, you'll look better this time :)
 
Lordy, you’re brave Mac!

I wish I’d found you for a couple more dances back then, I’m not sure it’s fair to judge based on a first dance, over 2(?) years ago, especially as I was pretty nervous.

Anyway, my observation might be totally wrong because it’s based on personal preference, what’s more it could be that my leading was the reason for the absence of the quality I’m about to mention. Like I say, you may well have been picking up on my nerves and going easy on me.

You’re a great follower, technically and aesthetically but perhaps you’re too ‘nice’, by this I mean everything was very smooth and pretty. But (and I hope this makes sense) there is a hardness, an edgy dynamism to salsa which I (and perhaps only I?) enjoy. I hope this makes sense - your dancing has nice rounded corners, but maybe it could use a few jagged edges?

I don't even know if this quality has anything to do with salsa at all; or you may have been going easy on a nervous clumsy stomper.
 
I found your lead to be quite strong compared to the only other two people I ever followed. It wasn't uncomfortable but it did slightly put me on edge. Of course I have no doubt that this strength was necessitated by my tardy following.

I wish you had brought up this topic before we danced as I enjoyed our dances and would have to really nitpick to give you a critique of your following.
 
I wish you had brought up this topic before we danced as I enjoyed our dances and would have to really nitpick to give you a critique of your following.

It is before you've danced actually. I mean, both before and after.
 
When we danced at the Scottish Salsa Congress you should have asked me then and I could have given you more direct specific feedback and shown you how to fix.

You have always struggled in two basic areas:
- Basic step (which includes smoothness of body movement, timing, balance etc).
- Connection with your partner (e.g. using the right muscles), which affects your following.

Doing the Pachanga probably hasn't helped. ;)

To improve:
- Work on smooth basics with no bouncy movement or leaning. You know the drill ; practice each step slowly in the mirror. Try to retain the smoothness when you practice shines to music.
- Work on using the correct muscles to produce a smooth connection in the arms and between the arms and body. Both in partnerwork and spins.

You might try regular practices following by feel with your eyes closed so that you do not rely on visual leads. Some anticipation can be because of this or nervousness.

I would have given this same advice if you had asked me at any period of your dancing. There were other things I noticed at the time we last danced but my memory is vague now.

Don't worry. You have improved from where you were but I think you're starting to become more aware of things now. Which is why you might feel you are regressing.

I'm surprised that with all the congresses and social dancing you do that you haven't made your BIG breakthrough yet. You're close. It will come and it will be massive!

Disclaimer: Since we haven't danced much in a long while this is more based on previous experience than anything else, though I still think these are the areas that would help you the most.
 
Mac you have guts! I think what I will do is when I go to Glasgow, I will go incognito so if I dance with Azzey or any other SF people they won't know it's me and I won't have to live in fear of what they think of my dance skills (or lack thereof) LOL

With the way you guys all break things down into the most minute details of how many pounds per square inch of pressure you have on the ball of your foot when pushing off the floor, etc I am getting a huge complex.

Kudos to you for daring to ask!
 
Mac you have guts! I think what I will do is when I go to Glasgow, I will go incognito so if I dance with Azzey or any other SF people they won't know it's me and I won't have to live in fear of what they think of my dance skills (or lack thereof) LOL

With the way you guys all break things down into the most minute details of how many pounds per square inch of pressure you have on the ball of your foot when pushing off the floor, etc I am getting a huge complex.

Kudos to you for daring to ask!

LOL. I have known Mac for years, since she was a beginner. So I hope she won't mind me being straightforward.

Generally I try not to think about critiquing someone when I'm dancing and just enjoy the music and the dance for what it is. I'm FAR from the perfect dancer, know my limitations and am a work-in-progress like everyone else. Of course you can't help noticing things when you dance with someone but I enjoy peoples many different styles and even mixes of styles.

An improver friend of mine is currently dancing back-weighted (actually on her heels) for the last couple of weeks and her timing is way off. Though she is a friend I've resisted the temptation to tell her about it even though I'm sure she would like to know to fix it. I will have to find some subtle nice way to accidentally bring it into the conversation as she is getting worse and worse and will eventually quit dancing. Anything else I don't bother unless it's dangerous behaviour.

Girls often ask me for feedback but I've learnt the hard way that being honest is not a good policy if you want to keep them happy. Another girl keeps pestering me for how to fix her multiple spins and I just can't bring myself to tell her that her whole basic movement and posture affects both her spinning and her following.

The people I enjoy dancing with the most are girls who really listen to, enjoy and express the music. That far out-ways any technical ability for me. So from what I've heard so far Timberamayor, I would not only enjoy dancing with you, but have quite a lot to learn from you about Cuban music and how to dance to it.

You can tell me all my Yuma habits when dancing Cuban, I know there are many.
 
[@azzey i was told that some friend of mine was wondering if someone could sneak in a hidden advice in the internets, while still being refuseful to do so, lol?]
 
LOL. I have known Mac for years, since she was a beginner. So I hope she won't mind me being straightforward.
I'm sure she won't. First off you didn't have any horrible things to say and second she obviously wants people to be honest. It's the only way to really know where one needs to focus.

Girls often ask me for feedback but I've learnt the hard way that being honest is not a good policy if you want to keep them happy. Another girl keeps pestering me for how to fix her multiple spins and I just can't bring myself to tell her that her whole basic movement and posture affects both her spinning and her following.
Probably a wise choice. I have been wanting to set up some private lessons with a Cuban teacher here to try to work on any bad habits I have as well as working out any non-Cuban stuff I do. By that I mean, you know how even if you have your eyes closed you can feel if your partner is a casinera, xbody or if she dances both? I can feel it just in the frame of the leaders anyway. And I know there must be things I do that would cause a blind Cuban to tell I'm not Cuban. So I'd like an analysis of that some day, so in future, any blind Cubans I dance with will think I'm Cuban :)

The people I enjoy dancing with the most are girls who really listen to, enjoy and express the music. That far out-ways any technical ability for me. So from what I've heard so far Timberamayor, I would not only enjoy dancing with you, but have quite a lot to learn from you about Cuban music and how to dance to it.
well I don't know how much you could learn from me, but I do listen obsessively to the music, but the step from knowing how I want to express the music and implementing it...I guess I don't know where I am on that scale. But i have been dancing much less the past couple of years and I know I have regressed. I don't think it's anything that a few months of serious dancing can't cure. Then I'll be back where I was... wherever that is.

But I am getting scared of you. I will avoid giving my name to anyone wearing a white suit and a big black hat. :artist: I will wear my Frenchman disguise.
 
I have been wanting to set up some private lessons with a Cuban teacher here to try to work on any bad habits I have as well as working out any non-Cuban stuff I do. And I know there must be things I do that would cause a blind Cuban to tell I'm not Cuban. So I'd like an analysis of that some day, so in future, any blind Cubans I dance with will think I'm Cuban :)

I'm going to do the same, soon hopefully.

:artist: I will wear my Frenchman disguise.

There's only one Frenchman here, so you'll stick out like a sore thumb! ;)
 
I didn't find your lead too strong at all (and I don't like a strong lead). It was nice. The only thing I did notice was the leaning thing that someone else mentioned. I can't remember when exactly it was happening though. So, on the basis of that, I think keeping your frame might be the thing to work on.
 
I've been thinking about starting this thread for some time but always chickened out... until now. This is the first year in my 8 years of dancing that I feel I'm regressing rather than improving (not that I was particularly great to start with :roll:), and I want to do something to reverse that.

What can I do to improve my dancing - both in terms of following and leading?

I don't have any good video clips to show*, but since so many of you SFers have danced with me and have first-hand knowledge of how I dance, I'm looking here for feedback based on what you *felt* when dancing with me, rather than what you see on video. I reckon I must have danced with at least 30 SFers in the last 12 months, and I'm looking for feedback from every one of you, whether on1, on2 or cuban (or merengue/bachata/cha cha :lol:), man or woman, newbie or superstar.

E.g.,

As a follower, am I
- heavy? too light? rigid? limp? inconsistent? unresponsive? anticipating/backleading? lacking balance? any annoying habits?

As a leader, am I
- unclear? too forceful? lacking frame? any timing issues? any annoying habits?

Thanks for your help!


* Okay, I believe there is a video of me dancing with olamalam on FB if you insist...
after dancing with you in SF last yr, i can definitely say you're better than or at least equal to anything we have in my town as a follow and better than a significant number of leads. more than half the leads in my town can't even do a proper 360 (or 180 deg) CBL.

as far as improving, i've been thinking about that myself (about myself, not you in particular, :tongue:. the trivial answer is that, of course, everything can be better (spinning, following, body movements, etc.. ); but just saying that alone isn't realistic enough.

do you have access to many instructors? it might be benificial to get a new perspective from someone totally new. i'm finding out that after being with the same teachers for over a year and a half, there really isn't anything new they can tell you that you haven't heard before. change stimulates growth.

the first place i'd start is with a new instructor, if possible.
 
Mac, as a follower i thought you did great, the only thing i noticed was a initial hesitation or slight uncomfortableness on our first dance or two. After that you loosened up considerably and started smiling. I chalked it up to us kinda being a bit unfamiliar at first and that was just how it manifested for you. After that, evrything was hot, your timing was on point, your styling was great....beyond that i cant remember b/c i wasnt dancing w you to evaluate but to have a great dance and to have fun....all of the dances hit that mark even the first two, but i def felt you relaxing after those.....there wasnt really anything that i felt reticent about leading you into...so as we would say, you were Winning.......:)
 
In my experience, most people aren't very good at self-evaluation* so finding a first rate teacher is essential.

And sweat. Lots of sweat.

*I'm not excepting myself. I'm about to start taking privates with my current teacher (haven't had privates in about 4 years) and my most important question is "what do I need to work on?"
 
Many thanks to everyone who's replied so far :) All the comments are immensely useful - keep them coming!

First of all, what do you mean with regression? What made you think that? If you felt it yourself, then you must know which aspects of your dancing went worse.
As a follower I spent something like 3 years working on my connection and felt (and my teachers agreed) that it improved quite a lot. I also worked on my balance (which I feel is one of the biggest difference between good followers and myself) and was starting to "get" it when I left Japan. Now I feel I'm slipping back in both regards, with all the old issues resurfacing.

As a leader my main issue is a lack of practice. There are tons of things I need to work on, but I have nobody I can practise with in my new scene, and I don't have anywhere near as much floor time as a leader than I used to.

You are sometimes leaning to left or right while spinning ladies but it's something to do with arm and core muscles. I don't think that you wanna start weightlifting to improve that. Just never mind :)

The only thing I did notice was the leaning thing that someone else mentioned. I can't remember when exactly it was happening though. So, on the basis of that, I think keeping your frame might be the thing to work on.

The lean problem goes deeper than dancing. I'm always leaning sideways when I think I'm standing straight, or even when I'm lying down. My pelvis is tilted to one side, so my lower body and upper body are not lined up straight. Apparently (according to my physiotherapist) it's caused by muscular tension and imbalance. Working on my core didn't improve it much, and the physio gave up after working on the problem for about a year :(

you dance "up and down"

- Basic step (which includes smoothness of body movement, timing, balance etc).

To improve:
- Work on smooth basics with no bouncy movement or leaning. You know the drill ; practice each step slowly in the mirror. Try to retain the smoothness when you practice shines to music.

Yes, the bobbing up and down is very obvious when I see videos of me dancing with a partner, both when following and leading. Oddly, not so much when doing the basic on my own. I'm guessing the bobbing may be a symptom of back-weightedness - sinking/falling into the back break then springing back up? Any pointers welcome. Another thing I see in videos is how much I bend my knees when partner dancing. The basic step is one area I still haven't made much improvement in after all these years, and I'd probably benefit from getting back to the drawing board and starting from scratch with a good teacher.

Doing the Pachanga probably hasn't helped. :wink:
Hey, I refuse to accept that! It was rubbish even before I picked up pachanga :lol:

IMO, you are definitely not a heavy follow but followers can always be lighter than they are. So maybe you can improve your dancing by trying to be lighter. I have no idea how to do that though.

When I lead I have a clear idea of the connection I want from the follower (not heavy; not too feather-light; not springy: not damp; always consistent), but I have no idea where I am myself. I wish I could lead myself so I could understand exactly how I feel to the leader! :lol: I think I definitely fail at the "consistent" part though. I do have a tendency to tense up mid-dance.

You’re a great follower, technically and aesthetically but perhaps you’re too ‘nice’, by this I mean everything was very smooth and pretty. But (and I hope this makes sense) there is a hardness, an edgy dynamism to salsa which I (and perhaps only I?) enjoy. I hope this makes sense - your dancing has nice rounded corners, but maybe it could use a few jagged edges?
Interesting - never thought about that. Something to mull over...

I found your lead to be quite strong compared to the only other two people I ever followed. It wasn't uncomfortable but it did slightly put me on edge. Of course I have no doubt that this strength was necessitated by my tardy following.

I find controlling the momentum of followers who are physically a lot bigger and heavier than me (i.e., majority of male followers) quite a challenge, and I probably tend to try to compensate for the lack of my core strength by using force, which explains why you felt that and Caroline didn't. Let me work on that when I see you next. In the meantime, I should find a local gym as I've lost a lot of core muscles during the last six months of inactivity.

I wish you had brought up this topic before we danced as I enjoyed our dances and would have to really nitpick to give you a critique of your following.
Go on, nitpick away - I'm sure I will be back in York soon enough :)


- Work on using the correct muscles to produce a smooth connection in the arms and between the arms and body. Both in partnerwork and spins.

I'm surprised that with all the congresses and social dancing you do that you haven't made your BIG breakthrough yet.
I'm not :roll: I'm a late starter with lots of deeply ingrained bad habits. I am still working on it and hopefully I will get there eventually...

LOL. I have known Mac for years, since she was a beginner. So I hope she won't mind me being straightforward.
Right 8) Next time I have a chance to dance with you (hopefully before Scottish Congress 2012), feel free to critique!


do you have access to many instructors? it might be benificial to get a new perspective from someone totally new. i'm finding out that after being with the same teachers for over a year and a half, there really isn't anything new they can tell you that you haven't heard before. change stimulates growth.

the first place i'd start is with a new instructor, if possible.
That's a problem - the town I've moved to has one salsa school, and so far I'm not massively impressed by the teacher there. I'm thinking about signing up to their course anyway when the next block starts to see what their classes are like, but I may need to starting commuting to another city for classes :( In the meantime, I'm thinking about arranging a few privates during my future road trips.
 
The lean problem goes deeper than dancing. I'm always leaning sideways when I think I'm standing straight, or even when I'm lying down. My pelvis is tilted to one side, so my lower body and upper body are not lined up straight. Apparently (according to my physiotherapist) it's caused by muscular tension and imbalance. Working on my core didn't improve it much, and the physio gave up after working on the problem for about a year :(

Yes, the bobbing up and down is very obvious when I see videos of me dancing with a partner, both when following and leading. Oddly, not so much when doing the basic on my own. I'm guessing the bobbing may be a symptom of back-weightedness - sinking/falling into the back break then springing back up? Any pointers welcome. Another thing I see in videos is how much I bend my knees when partner dancing. The basic step is one area I still haven't made much improvement in after all these years, and I'd probably benefit from getting back to the drawing board and starting from scratch with a good teacher.

have you tried osteopathy? I had the same problem because of my profession..my muscular tension was so bad that I was already feeling pain when I tried to stay straight..lots of physio, lots of medicine, nothing worked..then I went to dr dominique lippens and after 2 sessions I was fine!!!! I could not believe cause I didnt give any credit to this kind of techniques before..search for his name in google, he is from belgium but he married a brasilian and he lives here now, so maybe you can find someone who went to his same graduation near europe..

about the up and down, Its worse when you're leading..at least in the fb video ( the one with your birthday dance) and it happens in the 2 breaks ( 2 and 6)

when I started to dance I had the same problem.my problem was in the transition between the time the legs are bend and the time they are straight, so maybe when you do the break steps,since you need to transition from bend to straight legs, you go up and down..

maybe the "terence term" would be : work in your ball flat change? hehe
 
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