Musicality and "Mickey Mousing"

Maybe this is how those clever dancers find substance in their music? Being fast and/or sharply hitting every plink does not mean they are not feeling the music.
 
I'm not sure I understand correctly what the statement of the article is. If it claims that we shouldn't hit every single accent in the music then, in the context of salsa, I would disagree. It is of course written about tango and I don't claim to know enough about tango to have an opinion.

We all hear the music in a different way and are ready to express that in our dancing to a different degree. I see nothing wrong in using your body as if it was an instrument in the orchestra and expressing everything you hear - if that's how you feel it. When I watch somebody dance I can say that this is too much or too little for my taste but who has the right to say that it's wrong? It is so wildly subjective in a number of ways - such as how you hear the music, how you translate it in your movement, how your partner reacts to it and what the audience thinks about it. And, in social dancing, the last one is the least important aspect of them all when we talk about musicality.

Personally I have seen way too many performances and social dances with no musicality, a few that are in tune with every beat in the music and I can't think of a single one right now that had "too much musicality". There were those that did not reflect the music the way I felt it and looked forced and "choreographed" to me. However I would never say they were doing it wrong.

I also know that the way I express the music is not everybody's cup of tea. I've had heart-warming compliments about how in tune I am with the music and also stone faces of people who obviously thought it was too much. To me it is part of that elusive chemistry on the dance floor - do we hear the music in a similar way?

There are few more things that come to mind but I'll stop here before this becomes a novel again. :P
 
Funny, people often get defensive about articles that only serve to inspire me. I read the article as inspiring because it was saying don't get caught up thinking you must reflect every accent. This chimes with my recent thinking on the subject, after several years of dancing rhythmically, trying to chest pop on every strike of the timbale solo, etc, I have begun to think in terms of harmony and melody and mood again. This is not at all to say that one is better than the other, only to say "look, you might be missing X while you're doing Y". Personally I'd like to have both skills so that I have the choice.
 
I was watching some contemporary dancers on tv last night and I noticed that the dancers would often be moving despite a drawn out note that is held for a few measures. It made me think about my salsa dancing, where so much going on that to simply dance to as many accents and instruments as possible can create something entertaining, and it then made me think how different that is to other types of music and dance where the music has fewer dimensions and the dancer creates movement despite stillness in the music. This led me to remember that I am not only a reflection of the music, but I should dance as if I am a musician, creating an instrument out of my body to reflect both the music and my own interpretation. Just as each instrument plays something different but comes together on certain beats, so too can my dancing differ from the music at points and come together at others. :)
 
sweavo said:
Funny, people often get defensive about articles that only serve to inspire me.
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Appologies for being protective of the things I like.

I read the article as inspiring because it was saying don't get caught up thinking you must reflect every accent.
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This part I do agree with. What I disagree with is calling others' dancing "Mickey Mousing" and implying that they are not moved by the music. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't - it is all in their heads. And telling them to change their way of expressing the music because they don't connect to the audience. I seem to be allergic to this kind of calls for conformity, even as mild as in this article.
 
I can't even concentrate lately, so I might just be missing the entire point of the Donald Duck article included in the initial post.

I think of musicality as a final product to some type of "ambiance/energy".

My concern with musicality, as it is mostly perceived as a capability of hitting musical notes at exact times, is that it commonly appears disingenuous. A scripted speech that's failed to understand that musicality isn't a capability to hit high & lows, rather an ability to ride the vibe expressed by the overall synergy.

When speaking of overall synergy, rhythm, melody, ambiance, your emotions, it all comes into play. How well are we expressing our sentiments within those parameters?

The idea of musicality (as in the physical side for those who enjoy hitting the beats) is to reach a balance of movement as not to accentuate the music hard/soft enough to interrupt, perhaps even change the energy, where it would be comparable to an out of pitch singer. Higher on the highs, lower on lows destroying the vibe... If the rest of the musicians are on, why then isn't the singer on pitch as well? then, why isn't the dancer dancing 100BPM to a 30BPM song out of place? He isn't certainly displaying what the music makes him feel, rather how he feels dancing as he is. He's dancing to a different song. He's only feeling himself... ok, i'm ranting now. not nice
 
borikenSalsero said:
I can't even concentrate lately, so I might just be missing the entire point of the Donald Duck article included in the initial post.

I think of musicality as a final product to some type of "ambiance/energy".

My concern with musicality, as it is mostly perceived as a capability of hitting musical notes at exact times, is that it commonly appears disingenuous. A scripted speech that's failed to understand that musicality isn't a capability to hit high & lows, rather an ability to ride the vibe expressed by the overall synergy.

When speaking of overall synergy, rhythm, melody, ambiance, your emotions, it all comes into play. How well are we expressing our sentiments within those parameters?

The idea of musicality (as in the physical side for those who enjoy hitting the beats) is to reach a balance of movement as not to accentuate the music hard/soft enough to interrupt, perhaps even change the energy, where it would be comparable to an out of pitch singer. Higher on the highs, lower on lows destroying the vibe... If the rest of the musicians are on, why then isn't the singer on pitch as well? then, why isn't the dancer dancing 100BPM to a 30BPM song out of place? He isn't certainly displaying what the music makes him feel, rather how he feels dancing as he is. He's dancing to a different song. He's only feeling himself... ok, i'm ranting now. not nice
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Wow borikenSalsero,
...a most excellent post. You got the hairs on my arms standing up.
Thankyou
...if it ain't "boriken", don't fix it. LOL (Sorry, couldn't help myself.)
 
Simba does make the point that she's trying to avoid pointing out what others do as wrong. I really don't think it's about right or wrong, but you can definitely point out deeper layers in musicality that many people don't even think about or imagine. If you just settle into the idea of "it's my dance and that's just how I do it," then you will never learn and grow. So yes, we should try not to be judgmental, but we should also recognize that some levels are indeed higher and deeper than others.

I think that when someone begins to develop musicality, they go from incompetence to some confidence to overdoing it by trying to catch everything in the music (what might be called Mickey Mousing) before finally finding balanced, authentic, and truly expressive musicality. The Mickey Mousing described is indeed pretty superficial (in comparison to a deeper option) because there is so much in the music, and choosing the subtler aspects instead of always hitting the obvious breaks is indeed a way of going deeper into the music. In addition, this kind of subtlety and depth allows you to play and connect even more with your partner because now you can play with each other's expectations or draw out other aspects of each other instead of just doing the obvious and overdone. Sometimes withholding or containing the movement actually increases the energy and the intensity; this is difficult and pretty uncommon. But if you settle for the usual because it isn't "wrong," then you will never have the openness and desire to explore this.

Another way of framing this comes from another tango blog post I read recently. The first quote is from the blog, the second one is the comment I posted in response to the blog...

What Mari wrote: ...the sensuality of the step comes from what is not done rather than what is done. Marcela goes on to say, " ... a lot of women who dance, experienced or not, tend to overload the tango, overload the movement. Putting in a lot more things than the tango needs. In reality, the beauty is in the simplicity."

What I wrote: Nice post, Mari. This is definitely uncommon, which makes it even more special and juicy when someone brings such subtlety into the dance. It's the same principle as with pauses. The movement may slow or even "stop," but the energy doesn't go away. If anything it intensifies because now it's being contained in a smaller area. I think it's the same when it comes to withholding or making it smaller like what this post expressed. Especially when your partner is expecting something bigger or grander like what they normally get, doing it like this really surprises in the nicest way. Sometimes in conversation with another person you actually lower your voice instead of raising it to elicit more attentiveness and sensitivity. The truth is in the intersection/resolution of opposites. Just love it.

(Link: http://mytangodiaries.blogspot.com/2010/06/gavito-and-duran-beauty-and-simplicity.html)

To sum it up, I think there is nothing wrong with the more literal musicality or Mickey Mousing if that is the stage you are at in your dancing. But I think the idea is to progress beyond that. Hitting every break is great when you are finally able to do it because it's exciting and a whole new level from before. But there is more beyond that. Once you are able to hit every break, you no longer feel the need to; it is just a toolbox that you now have to draw from. It's like turns: When you are first learning them you want to do them all the time, but once you've mastered them you transcend them and no longer feel the need to do them all the time; you now want to explore doing them in a context that deepens the connection with your partner and the music.
 
sweavo said:
Funny, people often get defensive about articles that only serve to inspire me. I read the article as inspiring because it was saying don't get caught up thinking you must reflect every accent. This chimes with my recent thinking on the subject, after several years of dancing rhythmically, trying to chest pop on every strike of the timbale solo, etc, I have begun to think in terms of harmony and melody and mood again. This is not at all to say that one is better than the other, only to say "look, you might be missing X while you're doing Y". Personally I'd like to have both skills so that I have the choice.
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Interesting. I had a different definition of the term "Mickey-Mousing", in Engineering it has been used to describe improvised contraptions to complete a real life major task, such as what BP is doing to plug a blowout in the Gulf.

Terminology aside, I like the gist of the article as it suggests that musicality for dancers is not so different from musicality for musicians. Musicians like to toy with expectations so why shouldn't dancers do it too.
 
Joy, I think we start from the same position but we draw different conclusions from it.

Joy in Motion said:
If you just settle into the idea of "it's my dance and that's just how I do it," then you will never learn and grow.
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That's a point I disagree with. I see it in the opposite way. It is a natural progression but one that has to come from inside - only when you hear the music in this way are you ready to do it. Trying to do it before that means that you are not true to what you feel. I do believe that once you have started the journey you will eventually go through all the stages because it is a natural process that is true to probably everything we do. I think it is a good thing to fully immerse yourself in the stage that you are at. Until you feel the urge inside to move on. Not before that (because somebody has told you that it is not deep enough).

In fact being at a further point in this progression does not automatically mean that you will connect better with your partner. Only when he/she is at the same stage will you connect to the best of your potential. If there is a mismatch in the way you hear and feel the music then there will be unfulfilled expectations and misunderstanding. If you go for the subtlety and your partner expects an explosion of movement then it might be perceived as anti-climax.
 
Again, isn't music what we make out of it? If we all agree that "subtlety" is the "deeper" level of interpreting the music through motion, then we are basically saying that all else is superficial.
Now how about Cali style salsa? These dancers not only hit every break/accent/beat/and whatever else there is, but they also do it fast, continuously and beautifully.

I guess what I am trying to say is; there is beauty in all kinds of interpretation and it might depend on your understanding of the music or simply on your mood at the time. Sometime you listen to a piece and it moves certain emotions in you, and on another day it would bring out others that force you to dance to beat/melody/harmony or what not.
 
SalsaGipsy said:
What I disagree with is calling others' dancing "Mickey Mousing" and implying that they are not moved by the music. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't - it is all in their heads. And telling them to change their way of expressing the music because they don't connect to the audience. I seem to be allergic to this kind of calls for conformity, even as mild as in this article.
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I am with you on rejecting calls for conformity. I believe everyone should find their own muse when it comes to dancing, whether they love to spin, pop, glide, innovate or imitate, it's all good.

I thought the term "mickey mousing" was quite cool, based on the tendency for composers to accent every movement with a sound in the early cartoons.

As a drummer I'm all about silences. I only have so many sounds I can play, so I have to create and play with expectatation using the pauses.

E.g. I like the second of these much more, because he leaves room to soak the ideas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNFAhjLexzc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf0JiaWoQBs&playnext_from=QL
 
lolita said:
Again, isn't music what we make out of it? If we all agree that "subtlety" is the "deeper" level of interpreting the music through motion, then we are basically saying that all else is superficial.
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If I use the word "deeper" in this context it would be to say that you might have to dig deeper to get to this level in the music - meaning: it will probably not be the first you hear. The development, that Joy described in her post, to me is about change and not necessarily about improvement. It has a lot to do with finding something new and exciting, playing with it until you know it inside out, getting bored with it and moving on the next discovery. (Joy will probably disagree but that's how I see it)

So, yes, I completely agree with you that there can be beauty in any interpretation of the music.
 
When I was reading the article I was thinking about this video (and a few others):
youtube.com/watch?v=YdYnXQRjTX8

This should fit the definition of "Mickey Mousing" because they interpret every single accent and change in the music. To me, this is one of the most beautiful performances I have ever seen.

BTW this is not salsa but WC swing and the video has been mentioned in other threads before.

Edit: And here is another gem :P I just came accross:
youtube.com/watch?v=9uhKjAz1iuk
Will join my list of favourites... :raisebrow:
 
SalsaGipsy said:
Joy, I think we start from the same position but we draw different conclusions from it.

That's a point I disagree with. I see it in the opposite way. It is a natural progression but one that has to come from inside - only when you hear the music in this way are you ready to do it. Trying to do it before that means that you are not true to what you feel. I do believe that once you have started the journey you will eventually go through all the stages because it is a natural process that is true to probably everything we do. I think it is a good thing to fully immerse yourself in the stage that you are at. Until you feel the urge inside to move on. Not before that (because somebody has told you that it is not deep enough).

In fact being at a further point in this progression does not automatically mean that you will connect better with your partner. Only when he/she is at the same stage will you connect to the best of your potential. If there is a mismatch in the way you hear and feel the music then there will be unfulfilled expectations and misunderstanding. If you go for the subtlety and your partner expects an explosion of movement then it might be perceived as anti-climax.
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I don't disagree with you, SalsaGipsy. You make some excellent points. I definitely agree that each stage should be soaked up to its fullest and at the dancer's own pace. Because if they try to rush on to the next level because someone is telling them to it will just fall apart on them anyway because they don't have the proper foundation. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that there are quite a few dancers who get into this autopilot mode where they just hit every break and it's so predictable to the point of being stale. Doing this also takes away the interplay with your partner. I think this is a stage most dancers go through, but I find that some dancers end up staying there for extended periods of time because they aren't truly listening to the music and their partner and allowing a natural evolution in their musicality to take place. I allow room for the possibility that some dancers will just never reach this stage, but I think in many cases it's because no one has revealed to them that this stage exists. To some it comes naturally, but others need some help with it. I love to open up this world to dancers when they are ready, but if I had the attitude that they're happy where they're at so why bother, I guess I would feel kind of sad like I'm withholding something really unique and special from them.

I completely agree what you're saying about not automatically connecting with your partner by doing one or the other. But that's kind of the point. If you can hit all the breaks but not do much else, you will only be able to connect with partners who do the same. If you have gotten past the Mickey Mousing phase and moved on to the next level, you are now able to relate to partners who are in both phases. You have to find that point of connection with your partner and find what works. I definitely wouldn't look down on someone because they haven't reached a certain stage in their musicality, but if they don't continue to pay attention to the music and their partner and start waking up to those possibilities then I begin to think that either they aren't listening and only care about putting on a show or they just don't know that there is more available (typically I find that who they learned from has a lot to do with this, so the quality of dance instruction starts to come into play).

What I disagree with is calling others' dancing "Mickey Mousing" and implying that they are not moved by the music. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't - it is all in their heads. And telling them to change their way of expressing the music because they don't connect to the audience. I seem to be allergic to this kind of calls for conformity, even as mild as in this article.
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You make an excellent point here also. The idea should be not to judge others' dancing in an elitist fashion, so I do agree in that sense. However, sometimes you can indeed tell when someone is styling authentically or is trying to imitate a style they saw elsewhere. I don't think noticing that and addressing that in someone's dancing (assuming you're teaching them or the two of you are providing each other feedback) is being judgmental. I think it's part of the learning process. Sometimes dancers don't realize they are doing something until they receive an outsider's perspective - of course it should be feedback that is welcome and solicited. But I agree with you for sure about not telling someone they should change. I think the situation I just described needs to come from a place of humility and genuine desire to help each other learn and grow. I disagree with the idea of conformity also; in fact, when you teach styling to someone the correct way their styling should become more unique, not more uniform.
 
SalsaGipsy said:
When I was reading the article I was thinking about this video (and a few others):
youtube.com/watch?v=YdYnXQRjTX8

This should fit the definition of "Mickey Mousing" because they interpret every single accent and change in the music. To me, this is one of the most beautiful performances I have ever seen.

BTW this is not salsa but WC swing and the video has been mentioned in other threads before.

Edit: And here is another gem :P I just came accross:
youtube.com/watch?v=9uhKjAz1iuk
Will join my list of favourites... :raisebrow:
Click to expand...

There are indeed some amazing west coast swing videos out there. This performance from Ben and Melina is great, and yes they do hit a lot of breaks (although notice they also tease out some of the subtler parts of the music as well).

Keep in mind that this is a performance, and musicality for performance often needs to keep that hitting-all-breaks musicality to relate to the audience (another example of how hitting all breaks is not wrong but just has its place). But what I want to emphasize here is that when you watch their improvised dancing at Jack & Jills or out social dancing and such, they sometimes hit all breaks but sometimes they are doing the more advanced musicality we've been discussing (violating expectations, playing with subtlety, etc.). Performance and social dancing have some differences in terms of how the advanced dancers express the music. So I wouldn't really consider performances as applicable to the point we are discussing, although I think it's interesting to consider those differences.
 
SalsaGipsy said:
In fact being at a further point in this progression does not automatically mean that you will connect better with your partner. Only when he/she is at the same stage will you connect to the best of your potential. If there is a mismatch in the way you hear and feel the music then there will be unfulfilled expectations and misunderstanding. If you go for the subtlety and your partner expects an explosion of movement then it might be perceived as anti-climax.
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I think this case is less transparent when there is a shallower emotional connection. If the connection is seen as one found by coupling body movement to sound, then we'll likely spend countless dances failing to maximize connection. However, song, styles of dance, and connection have very little effect when emotionally connected. I'm not sure if it's because I'm a leader, but it is relatively easy to have a follower, regardless of her stage in dancing, to fall into an emotional connection, which leads to an unaffected dance-long-connection despite different levels/ideas/skill.

Think of being deeply into your partner that even when cars are flying by, sirens are blaring, one only feels, sees one-selves. It's the same for dancing. Two people can dance drastically different, with different philosophies, yet become so emotionally charged that there isn't a hindrance whether I'm on1, and she's on2. The shortcomings only come when we start calculating and judging how each beat should be danced, if we do away with that it will become rather easy falling into the groove of the song musically, and connect to your partner. that little tornado can actually become a cool breeze in a hot autumn evening.
 
SalsaGipsy said:
Personally I have seen way too many performances and social dances with no musicality, a few that are in tune with every beat in the music and I can't think of a single one right now that had "too much musicality".
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I completely agree with SalsaGipsy here -- I don't think I've ever seen a Salsa dance (socially or in a performance) with "too much musicality." The vast majority of Salsa social dancers (and a surprising number of performers) miss big accents in the music, either because they don't know how to reflect it, or they're locked into following a pattern that ignores the accents. I think it is a somewhat difficult skill for dancers to hit musical accents on a consistent basis when social dancing.

Joy in Motion said:
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that there are quite a few dancers who get into this autopilot mode where they just hit every break and it's so predictable to the point of being stale. Doing this also takes away the interplay with your partner. I think this is a stage most dancers go through, but I find that some dancers end up staying there for extended periods of time because they aren't truly listening to the music and their partner and allowing a natural evolution in their musicality to take place.
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Really? :confused: My experience is that only a small percentage of Salsa dancers know the music well enough to be able to "hit every break," let alone actually doing it on the fly. Moreover, I was a bit confused by your posts in this thread, which seem to be addressing dancers who hit major breaks -- not dancers who hit "every little plink and plonk," which was the definition given in the very first paragraph of the Mickey Mousing article. I simply don't think it's possible to hit all the plinks and plonks of most Salsa music, partly because of the speed of the music and partly because so many instruments are typically involved, as opposed to Tango music's often slower pace and smaller ensembles.

I think I have seen what I might call "bad" musicality (i.e., dance movements at a significantly different pace or size than I think the music calls for) with Salsa, but I don't think I've ever seen "too much" musicality that hits too many accents.
 
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