The 360 Move

opm1s6 said:
The way I was taught is...EXACTLY the way Oliver does it. In particular pay attention to the direction his body faces, not just the steps. Oliver does do more of an ankle flick (whatever) into the 7, but I think that's stylistic and is more unique to what he's used to with Luda.

So I'll go step by step on2.

1 - prepare for the crossbody
2 - prepare for the inside turn
3 - turn on 3 and perpare to insert arm deep across her back
4 - move momentum forward before step
5 - step with the right foot, near and to the right of her pivot point for the inside turn. Your foot can point in different directions depending on lead and follow, however the momentum built up in 3 and 4, should already start to create some rotational force across the balls of your feet. Arm should already have a hold on her back, usually under her shoulder blades.
6 - you should be sideways, with your shoulders inline, parallel with the slot. The 6 step is light, witht the left foot and the closer to the axis it is ,the better. The rotational force built in previous steps should continue and no real weight is placed on 6 as much as it can be used to continue to generate the force with pivoting with the 6. This step is light as far as I can tell. (relative to sweavo's method I think in his method he puts weight on his left, shifts weight back to the left, before continuing the launch into the 7 forcing momentum from the hips, into the balls of the feet).
7 - pivot on the right foot and finish with a majority of the rotational force, ending with your back on the other side of the slot and still in parallel with the slot line.

while i don't disagree that the timing conventions are tougher to judge on Oliver's video. I'll break down what I see in both videos.

Oliver: as of 3:10 he basically does what I'm saying above. What's scary is how he barely travels to get where he needs to be. I think he might shift his weight on his right foot from the ball to his heel as he rotates, allowing him to move out of the way for the cross body. Once he steps on 5 (the major traveling step used to build momentum), he's pretty much done taking major steps, and everything else is pivot until 1.

MamboSF: The placing of the hand is on her left shoulder, which is a major distinction between the two methods. Let's forward to 2:40 on the above video, where his back is to you and you can see from the light under his foot when and how he steps (he does the steps slightly differently between when he teachs it and it's actually easier to see when he's fully in motion.

5 - he steps in place
5n - he places his hand behind her left shoulder (not deep across the back)
6 - far forward with the left foot and pointing with the slot (shoulders perpendicular to the slot line), this is the the major traveling step used to build momentum
7 - steps behind her and is swiveling on his 6, and this is what creates the whip motion. With some strength, I bet this is fun.

Thinking about how the mechanics would feel, it might be nice to do it mambosf's way, but it is far different from Oliver's method. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they're different. I haven't looked at Juan's footwork and weight exchange.

Can we have someone else look these up and confirm? This is my understanding of things. Please correct me if I'm being retarded. :D

EDIT: the second Juan video at 34 seconds: Juan's major traveling step is his right foot, not his left. Juan's method is the same as Oliver's, although it looks like he uses less rotational force, but is deeper across the back than MamboSF although not as deep as Oliver which is stylistic.
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Great post! That's exactly how I learned it through doing a private with Becky Lee from Salsa Suave in Sydney - the breakdown being exactly the same count-for-count. It felt really odd at first but once you get used to doing it correctly it's amazing how natural it ends up feeling.

It looks simple but is in fact one of the harder things to master in salsa.

My advice is don't try to replicate it but instead get taught correctly how to do it - everything from footwork, to applying the right kind of pressure to the right part of the follow's back, timing, and body position.
 
opm1s6 said:
Oliver: as of 3:10 he basically does what I'm saying above. What's scary is how he barely travels to get where he needs to be. I think he might shift his weight on his right foot from the ball to his heel as he rotates, allowing him to move out of the way for the cross body. Once he steps on 5 (the major traveling step used to build momentum), he's pretty much done taking major steps, and everything else is pivot until 1.

MamboSF: The placing of the hand is on her left shoulder, which is a major distinction between the two methods. Let's forward to 2:40 on the above video, where his back is to you and you can see from the light under his foot when and how he steps (he does the steps slightly differently between when he teachs it and it's actually easier to see when he's fully in motion.

5 - he steps in place
5n - he places his hand behind her left shoulder (not deep across the back)

Thinking about how the mechanics would feel, it might be nice to do it mambosf's way, but it is far different from Oliver's method. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that they're different. I haven't looked at Juan's footwork and weight exchange.

Can we have someone else look these up and confirm? This is my understanding of things. Please correct me if I'm being retarded. :D
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I think the steps that you described are pretty much the same as I can recall being taught.

1. Stepping while dancing in motion will always look different than when broken down (due to exaggeration for sake of conveying the point when teaching). Yesterday briefly tried to see video for MamboSF dancing. I found a couple in his uploads but sans music.

2. How deep across the back of the lady you can reach depends on length of your arm and breadth of her back. As far as I can remember only one instructor has ever explained this aspect (in general). Depending on the lady's shoulder structure (your arm is at least constant) you might have to hold her by shoulder blade or deep across or any point in-between in a close hold position (like required for pivoting).

3. I think in all the videos the execution of 360 was very similar to Oliver's.
 
one thing that helps big time is to keep the gap closed with your partner. make sure to follow her after she's past you on 2 and send your momentum already, even if you haven't stepped on 5. You can't allow for space to open up between you and your partner and think you can close it with your 5; by that point it's too late. Get your hand deep across and gollow her with your right shoulder keeping the space as even from the time she crosses you on 2n3. It makes life a lot easier.
 
not a bad job: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icOKC4knZBA <---actually this is crap

minor things i'd like to mention as an add on.

once you are in that 7 (on2) the guy should keep his body as straight as possible. If you are already bending at the waist, you'll be to loose and lose some of the centrifugal force.

secondly, i personally like staying very deep across the back and catch her back early. Now this feels better for me, but I'm still new to adding this across all my patterns. As I get more adept I can imagine me being able to adapt to changes in the middle of the flow and still make it smooth.

my feet are also slightly different, but about the same
 
I like that video, but one thing confused me: They refer to the move as a '180', and mention that they'll do another video on the '360'.
 
SnowDancer said:
I like that video, but one thing confused me: They refer to the move as a '180', and mention that they'll do another video on the '360'.
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i think its the same thing but just call it 180 for whatever reason. in my classes we just call it overturned CBL to avoid this type of confusion. the rotational axis is NOT the girl but the RIGHT FOOT of the guy. both the girl and the guy connect and move in unison as they rotate about that pivotal axis created by the guy. if the girl was the pivotal axis, then she would stay in place but she doesn't. the girl is displaced slightly...basically they change places three times. in that video, they travel a bit more than is necessary.

either way, this move is taught so many different ways i think you essentially have to experiment with all of them and find the one you like the best, :cool:
 
SnowDancer said:
I like that video, but one thing confused me: They refer to the move as a '180', and mention that they'll do another video on the '360'.
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That's because that (in the video) is a regular swing step, which is pretty easy to do. Some teachers don't explain it well, but once you get the hang of it, you realize how easy it is. I do it without even thinking about it, but that is only because I had an instructor that started every turn pattern with a swing and he explained the technique well.

A 360 is much more difficult, as you bring the follow completely around to where she started. You need to be much quicker if you do it with the proper footwork, which looks much better than cheating. A lot of advanced dancers cheat and use the follower's momentum while kicking one leg up to bring the girl around, which doesn't look as good as when you actually have the right technique. I rarely see dancers do a full swing with the proper technique.
 
opm1s6 said:
not a bad job: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icOKC4knZBA

minor things i'd like to mention as an add on.

once you are in that 7 (on2) the guy should keep his body as straight as possible. If you are already bending at the waist, you'll be to loose and lose some of the centrifugal force.

secondly, i personally like staying very deep across the back and catch her back early. Now this feels better for me, but I'm still new to adding this across all my patterns. As I get more adept I can imagine me being able to adapt to changes in the middle of the flow and still make it smooth.

my feet are also slightly different, but about the same
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I think I know what you're saying. The few times I've tried this, if I catch her on the shoulder blade, the momentum can allow her torso to rotate (her shoulder is stopping, and the rest keeps moving) and throw her balance off. Whereas if you catch her more to the center of her back, it's easier to reverse her direction without a problem.
 
AguaDulce said:
A 360 is much more difficult, as you bring the follow completely around to where she started. You need to be much quicker if you do it with the proper footwork, which looks much better than cheating. A lot of advanced dancers cheat and use the follower's momentum while kicking one leg up to bring the girl around, which doesn't look as good as when you actually have the right technique. I rarely see dancers do a full swing with the proper technique.
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Thanks! I think I've seen what you're talking about. I'm looking forward to seeing Anthony's video of it.
 
SnowDancer said:
Thanks! I think I've seen what you're talking about. I'm looking forward to seeing Anthony's video of it.
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well i need an example, since I don't want to guess. Anyone have a viddeo of it done poorly and one of it done properly. Please if anything I've said in my posts above is wrong, do correct me, thanks :P

vancouverguy said:
I think I know what you're saying. The few times I've tried this, if I catch her on the shoulder blade, the momentum can allow her torso to rotate (her shoulder is stopping, and the rest keeps moving) and throw her balance off. Whereas if you catch her more to the center of her back, it's easier to reverse her direction without a problem.
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Yeah it's far better to catch her as early as you possibly can, andI've found it to be far more comfortable. I also agree with AguaDolce, he does give the wrong impression about where the central focal point is. I've found it to be around my right leg, which is why I find it necessary for me to hold that line as much as I possibly can.
 
SnowDancer said:
Thanks! I think I've seen what you're talking about. I'm looking forward to seeing Anthony's video of it.
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I have a couple of videos of my friends doing a full swing, which is different than what Addicted to Salsa or the bald guy from SF are doing in their vids. Those vids are just the regular swing. I think this thread is about doing a regular swing step, not a full swing. If that is the case, Addicted to Salsa or the MSF vids will suffice. The tecniques are slightly different but the net effect is the same. Obviously, you need to play around and see what feels the best for your body type and ability. Personally, I don't like the MSF vid where he kicks his leg around and calls it the NY Whip.
 
up until a month ago i was doing this move without flow - leading it as separate moves.

say id do a xbody turn (on2) id catch the girl and found i was pausing lightly. once i realised it felt better for me and my partner i really enjoy this simple but flowy move.

on 2 i actually start to lead the girl round slightly on beat 5 so that i can get a whole 360 rotation in beats 5,6,7,8,1 with girls who have good timing. i reckon there's potential to fit in 540 degrees just in 5,6,7,81 (on2). i will report back in a week or so...

it took me ages to realise that great posture with the right arm/shoulder make this move much easier.
 
The terminology confused me no end, too. I eventually rationalized that what people call a 360 actually consists of (typically) a cross body lead with inside turn smoothly followed by the 360 counterclockwise swing itself, so that in the full pattern the partners rotate around each other 540 degrees.

I collated several of the youtube videos people found illustrating the 360 move: http://salsaloca.wikidot.com/360
 
nowhiteshoes said:
up until a month ago i was doing this move without flow - leading it as separate moves.

say id do a xbody turn (on2) id catch the girl and found i was pausing lightly. once i realised it felt better for me and my partner i really enjoy this simple but flowy move.

on 2 i actually start to lead the girl round slightly on beat 5 so that i can get a whole 360 rotation in beats 5,6,7,8,1 with girls who have good timing. i reckon there's potential to fit in 540 degrees just in 5,6,7,81 (on2). i will report back in a week or so...

it took me ages to realise that great posture with the right arm/shoulder make this move much easier.
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Actually it's funny you say that - there definitely is potential to fit in 540 - the secret is to overturn when you collect the girl on the 5 (on2) so that you're an additional 90 degrees around - then when you execute the the 6,7,8,1 you continue moving around the girl so that you're doing an additional 90 degrees, adding up to an additional 180 degrees. It's very tricky to execute though and does require practise - I still feel like I have a way to go before it feels smooth. In Sydney the move is also known as a "loaded coke", probably because you need additional caffeine to pull it off!
 
I have not seen a 360 (aka full swing) demonstrated in this thread. Everything I've seen is a regular swing (180). Anthony, from Addicted2Salsa seems to be the only one that used the correct termonology for what he did. For a full swing you take the follow completely back to where she started. These guys are just taking the follow from one side and swinging her to the opposite side, which is a 180. The regular swing, as demonstrated by addicted2salsa, salsa villiage, etc., is a pretty basic move in mambo. The 360 or full swing is rarely done because its a lot more challenging.
 
redblack said:
The terminology confused me no end, too. I eventually rationalized that what people call a 360 actually consists of (typically) a cross body lead with inside turn smoothly followed by the 360 counterclockwise swing itself, so that in the full pattern the partners rotate around each other 540 degrees.

I collated several of the youtube videos people found illustrating the 360 move: http://salsaloca.wikidot.com/360
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When I was very first time taught this move I couldn't rationalize to how it was 360. I even argued with the instructor. To me it was 180. Then I figured everyone calls it 360. At best I can see it as a 360 from follower's context. Even then it depends where you consider the start to be. With the initial CBL as a starting position (it is 540 as she moves around 180+180+180) or when picked up for pivot after CBL-inside turn as a starting position (in which case follower steps around 180+180=360).
 
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