Smelly & PUA guy problems

Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by Melvin, Dec 18, 2008.

  1. Melvin

    Melvin Tumbao

    So, I've started to arrange informal training events for members of salsa class and people I've met at socials and workshops.

    No teacher involved, just my videos and us all instructing each other trying to get things right as best we can. I keep it organized, time and location, through a private web forum, like a message board, so I won't have to keep telling everyone individually what's happening. Free for all if they please.

    Some minor problems with a few of the guys though. Girls have been complaining to me.

    One of them smells, serious arm pit BO. Very sympathetic guy, pretty good dancer, the only thing with him is this issue.

    Two of them are annoying girls by desperately trying to get laid or find a girlfriend. Entertaining guys, and probably harmless. I don't take them seriously, more like some kind of cartoon characters according to me. But sure, some girls find one of them a bit scary, and the other really irritating.

    They exhibit badly executed behaviour learned from various dating litterature (PUA, Pick Up Artist) blended with their own mix of inappropriate touching of butts and/or overly enthusiastic socializing which might very well scare some girls away, affecting me as well.

    I don't want to be some kind of leader or alpha male here, telling other guys what to do and what not to do. They're grown men and I shouldn't have to.

    But if they don't improve their behaviour I'll probably have to do something, which might very well result in them getting offended/humiliated and stop coming, which would mean I'd have to find other guys. Might be difficult to find guys the girls would accept. And it's kind of difficult to find people with any kind of commitment.

    Maybe I'm just oversharing and not exactly looking for advice, even though it's welcome. But does anyone have related experiences or other input?
    #1
  2. himji

    himji Sonero

    first off, what a great idea! Well done on getting this organised and I hope all your group reallly appreciates the work involved and have a great time with it? If you don;t mind me asking, where abouts are you?

    Ok, back to the post is one guy smelly and one guy annoying PUA or both are smelly PUA's?

    The smelly issue is easy to deal with, the PUA, well you might not want to loose another leader but if the girls don't like him and want to dance with him, does it make any difference? Sure you don't want to offend him but there are subtle ways which might make him change his attitude without denting his ego? I think first thing is you need to decide, do you really want this guy around? What is apparent tho is you can't let this go on (and this isn't just on you either, you can enlist help especially of the girls who are much better at this sort of thing).

    Sorry, can't offer any experience, just a wall to bounce ideas from
  3. himji

    himji Sonero

    Ok, reread properly, like I said smelly guiy is easy and I DO have experience here.

    One class, a girl I was dancing with stopped, took me to one side and very, very appologetically told me that she didn't want to offend me but I had a BO problem and explained that if she could smell it then so could theother girls and I could be missing out on so many great dances because of it.

    Now I could have been offended by this and maybe it's just me but I was over the moon that she was brave enough to tell me this and I really respect her for that. Nobody wants to tell somebody such things but if she didn't I'd have never known.

    I then went off and did what I needed to sort it out (changed AP/DEO and even use an extra string AP on occasion) and the next time I saw her, all she said was, you smell great. All I needed to hear.

    Up to you how to break it but he needs to hear it and it'll help him out in the long run. Remember, he probably has no idea and it's not his fault he can't smell his own BO but if nobody tells him he'll never know.
  4. TrulyMadlyAmanda

    TrulyMadlyAmanda Shine Officer

    agreed. provided it's one-to-one, tactfully/sensitively put, this is the biggest favour you can do someone, imho. i think it helps not to make a big deal of it, but say "it happens to us all". if he doesnt correct, he's probably clean & using AP, but re-wearing clothes without washing....if the problem persists you could mention that.

    the guy whose touching womens' butts unwantedly is a criminal. how much tolerance would the group have if one of the guys was stealing money out of your wallets. groping is way worse, imho. personally, i would have a word with him one-on-one and kick him out, explaining why. then i'd gather the group, explain that you dont want to be 'in charge' as such, but that the women were unhappy and that's why you kicked the perv out. say it's a practice, not a dating session, and we're all here to learn, not to be picked up....chatting-up is for the social drink after practice - then make brief eye contact with the chat-up guy/s to make sure they know you mean them, but not so much that the rest of the group notices and it becomes a public reprimand.

    but hey, i'm a practice nazi, lol. seriously though, zero tolerance on sexual assault (which is what groping is), racism or homophobia in any class/practice session i have any control over. apart from doing what's right, i agree if you leave gropey mcgropington to his own devices, you'll end up without any women.

    and second himji's comments - great idea, good for you for organising it! :cool::cool:
  5. himji

    himji Sonero

    Great and wise words therte form Amanda.

    One point, why not have the group talk before kicking them out? Don't specify whom during the class but it gives them a chance to change and then it's up to them, if the behaviour continues it's grounds for a :buttkick:
  6. agarcia97

    agarcia97 Sonero

    I really cant understand how guys dont know if they are not exactly at there freshest. I mean we all do other things physical and sweat whether its dancing or otherwise and unless your a teenager you should have gotten clued in at some point in life I would think. I personally make sure I always have deodarant on and whatever happens to be my signature scent at the time. Its great when Im dancing with a girl and shes like o you smell so good.

    I have a lof of experience with exactly the kind of guy you are talking about and in my opinion if you want to keep them around you CANNOT make a public display of the situation, like everyone wont know what your talking about. Im a pretty straight forward person and very non threatening to other guys. I try to make it feel like Im helping them. Which I am, when I say like hey bro im not sure she likes what your doing so if you really want her to like you that might not be the best approach. Be friendly and non-reprimanding about it becuase for you it might be serious time and for them it might be a chance to meet girls which I dont think there is anything wrong with. They may just need some coaching on tact. I have one friend of mine who is very abrasive and makes some very crude sexual comments when we hang out with girls and I constantly remind him that its not very attractive, he usually changes his attitude and it often works for him. Hes not a bad looking guy and is fun to be around when hes not acting childish so the girls end up being like o hes cool and want to hang out with him.

    IMO you cant change that part of guys. they will become disinterested. You can only work within the limitations of people.
  7. TrulyMadlyAmanda

    TrulyMadlyAmanda Shine Officer

    the only problem comes when one person's 'freedom' restricts another's. the groper has got to go, no question, no debate. the chat-up kings....well, melvin said they're making the women uncomfortable. maybe youre right, and coaching them to express their attraction better, might be a win-win...but it seems unlikely to me.... in which case, do these guys have the right to make women uncomfortable at a session which everyone's signed up to as a salsa practice, not speedating? clearly they dont, i guess the question is how to deal with it...?
  8. Aris

    Aris Changui

    I guess I'm a bit more up front about things. I've been in situations where a female friend told me that she just danced with one of my male buddies and he didn't smell good. I immediately went over and told him that I just got word that he stank and it would be in his best interests to fix that problem ASAP. (That's what I would want my friends to do for me if the roles were reversed.) There are never any hard feelings there.

    As for the PUA's, that is a tough one. Around my neck of the woods, it would be easy to boot them from the group because there are usually more leads than follows here. Your situation sounds a bit different.
  9. agarcia97

    agarcia97 Sonero

    Amanda sorry you are right. When it come to the gropping....that is defintly not an acceptable practice under any circumstances if its not invited and it wasnt my intention to imply otherwise. I still think you take him aside, if you want to keep him, and just say dude you cant do that, if you do it again your out.

    My thinking was a long the lines of what you can do to help other than throwing them out if you could use the bodies.
  10. himji

    himji Sonero

    Well I can attest that it's quite easy. I still sweat when I dance, maybe alot less now as the pressure is off me and I'm alor more relaxed but I always wore deoderant and yet I still had issues. Look, I live by myself so I don't have mum/gf/sister telling me I stink and I was fine in all other aspects, just on the dance floor. As Aris said, somebody telling me was the best thing they could have done for me as it let me chnage my DEO and I'm fine now
  11. TrulyMadlyAmanda

    TrulyMadlyAmanda Shine Officer

    :confused:

    how many chances does this guy need? he's a criminal. would 'take him aside' by the strategy for a guy who had repeatedly stolen small amounts of cash from the other people's wallets at the practice session? it's the same thing - "i want something you've got, you might not want to give it to me, so i'll just help myself" - but with worse consequences. i've had my whole wallet (including phone, travel pass, cash, house keys) stolen and been unhappy, yet perfectly philosophical about it. groping will almost always produce tears - anger drives them out in the moment - but afterwards there will be crying. and i'm a strong person.

    groping - sexual assault, to give it it's real name - is a crime because it has serious consequences for the victim. if we were on dr phil ;) we'd talk about 'boundaries'. touching someone against their will or inflicting physical pain, are the most invasive kind of boundary violation. this guy knows these women dont welcome his attentions, or he'd be doing more than stealing a quick grope...it's not his lack of desire that's stopping him, it's his knowledge of theirs.

    the guy who smells bad is probably completely unaware of the problem, and could be the nicest and most respectful person ever. the groper is not a good person.

    nice guys often end up defending gropers, because we've all had accidents dancing salsa....as a leader, i've accidentally had handfuls of almost every conceivable female body part, lol. i wouldnt want anyone to think of me as a sleaze....and they never would. not cuz i'm a woman, but because women know the difference between an accident and a grope. it's possible (but unlikely) for one woman to be wrong about one incident. since several women are complaining about repeated incidents with this guy, his behaviour is deliberate and completely intolerable.

    how would the 'little talk' with him go....? "dude, we all think breasts look inviting, but it's not cool to grab a handful whenever you feel like it"? the guy knows this already. it's not fair on the women to have them anxiously waiting to see whether he assaults them again - how are they supposed to gain anything from the practice if that's where their mental focus is?
  12. himji

    himji Sonero

    Amanda, from what I got of the OP, I don't think it's guys grabbing breast and arse at every opportunity. But guys thinking they are being playfully cute with little bottom spank/rubs and maybe letting thier bodies get too close to thier partners than would be acceptable unless you knew them really well and knew they weren't trying it on.

    Still not right but a far throw from an outraguos grope which I'm sure would have solicited many a slap and an immediate escort off the premesis.
  13. TrulyMadlyAmanda

    TrulyMadlyAmanda Shine Officer

    :confused:

    how many chances does this guy need? he's a criminal. would 'take him aside' by the strategy for a guy who had repeatedly stolen small amounts of cash from the other people's wallets at the practice session? it's the same thing - "i want something you've got, you might not want to give it to me, so i'll just help myself" - but with worse consequences. i've had my whole wallet (including phone, travel pass, cash, house keys) stolen and been unhappy, yet perfectly philosophical about it. groping will almost always produce tears - anger drives them out in the moment - but afterwards there will be crying. and i'm a strong person.

    groping - sexual assault, to give it it's real name - is a crime because it has serious consequences for the victim. if we were on dr phil ;) we'd talk about 'boundaries'. touching someone against their will or inflicting physical pain, are the most invasive kind of boundary violation. this guy knows these women dont welcome his attentions, or he'd be doing more than stealing a quick grope...it's not his lack of desire that's stopping him, it's his knowledge of theirs.

    the guy who smells bad is probably completely unaware of the problem, and could be the nicest and most respectful person ever. the groper is not a good person.

    nice guys often end up defending gropers, because we've all had accidents dancing salsa....as a leader, i've accidentally had handfuls of almost every conceivable female body part, lol. i wouldnt want anyone to think of me as a sleaze....and they never would. not cuz i'm a woman, but because women know the difference between an accident and a grope. it's possible (but unlikely) for one woman to be wrong about one incident. since several women are complaining about repeated incidents with this guy, his behaviour is deliberate and completely intolerable.

    how would the 'little talk' with him go....? "dude, we all think breasts look inviting, but it's not cool to grab a handful whenever you feel like it"? the guy knows this already. it's not fair on the women to have them anxiously waiting to see whether he assaults them again - how are they supposed to gain anything from the practice if that's where their mental focus is?
  14. himji

    himji Sonero

    Amanda, you post farming there? Do you get a prize for 300 posts?

    *starts posting like mad
  15. Melvin

    Melvin Tumbao

    Sure. We do have a great time and I get a lot of appreciation from people for this simple and not very demanding initiative.

    Also, sorry to digress, but somehow many, with a few brilliant exceptions, are kind of lame and seem strangely hesitant to actually showing up, making commitments or helping out.

    Most seem to want special "best friend" treatment. Expecting me to inform them individually instead of them taking care of themselves and check out training sessions online.

    I won't play that game, it's supposed to work with a minimum of effort on my part. I'm not even supposed to be necessary to get training sessions going.

    Strangely enough many seem ready to pay for and attend lessons and events where they know for sure there won't be enough partners to dance with, but with totally free training sessions they suddenly start worrying about the POTENTIAL risk of having to wait for their turn now and then. I don't fully understand their thinking.

    But hey, no regrets, people are what they are. I get my rewards from high quality training time and great socializing.

    Sorry if I don't disclose my location. I'd rather not see anyone in my scene figuring out who I am. It's a small world and I prefer being able to express myself freely without having to worry about indiscretions.



    "Smelly guy", I agree, he seems pretty mature and shouldn't be much of a problem. But I'd have to choose my timing properly, or happen to find some perfect opportunity. Too bad I never meet him outside of salsa. An SMS about it would be shocking wouldn't it?

    Best if one of the girls told him in private, but I don't like the idea of giving other people strange "assignments". If I tell him the wrong way he might suspect I'm acting as a messenger for everyone, which would be pretty awkward. And I also have to act here as soon as possible, the more times he shows up smelly the more difficult this gets.


    I see what you mean, but in this case I wouldn't go that far yet without giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    He's like a puppy dog, overly eager to be well liked by everybody, slightly confused and too much "on", but no consistent groping as far as I know.

    The incident was at a party with a very lively atmoshpere. The "girl with the butt" happened to suddenly look sensational. I was blown away by her looks, amazing what a little makeup and the right clothes can do.

    It's possible he got carried away and became a victim of his own wishful thinking. She immediately got really pissed off and told him to stop groping. As far as she's concerned "he's no longer a friend". He's in the abyss. Off the Friend's ladder where we all belong as training partners.

    To add to the story, she's an incredibly friendly and sweet person. Unfortunately she often get's her friendliness abused by clueless guys who just don't seem able to discern between a woman being nice and a woman being interested. Sadly enough.

    She does think of changing her general attitude and become more bitchy. It would be a shame, friendliness is nice and should be appreciated with respect. I find this a good example of the importance of being a gentleman at all times. ("Superhero Gentleman" - Prime directive "Sworn never to initiate coercion, protect the women and children")

    Telling him in a friendly way about the problem? I don't know. When thinking about it - If he doesn't care or know to empathize enough to figure things out I'd say he's not turning out to be such a nice guy after all.

    I don't want to help seriously sleazy guys hide their character. I'd leave it to him. If he insists on being a problem it will be dealt with, no special warnings. The women must be protected if this is supposed to work.


    As to the other annoying guy. He's a clueless, enthusiastic over intelligent IT dork without much experience in women.

    He seems to think that if I touch a girl in a friendly manner he has a "green light" to do the same not bothering to observe what she might feel. I find his persona more threatening than the other guy. He's making assumptions according to his own rules and act on them, not a good thing.

    He's not groping, but doesn't hesitate to take their hands, brushing things of their clothing, correcting their hair or other inappropriate things. I repeatedly have to block him out.

    He's a big socially inept intense guy with "crazy eyes" who seemingly doesn't realize his size and unwanted exuberance might be intimidating and scary to a small woman.

    I think this problem will solve itself, one girl surprisingly seem to like him. She's appears a bit simple minded herself and I guess she feels safe with a not so soave guy. Hopefully he'll cool off and just become a less scary nuisance as soon as he establishes his SO.

    Both of the guys actually are quite unintentionally entertaining, things do happen when they're around, for better or worse. We all enjoy excellent gossip material within limits.
  16. Flujo

    Flujo Sabor Ambassador

    Please don't take this personally but I'm confused. Didn't you know what these guys were like before you invited them to the training sessions? It sounds like you already new (of) them from either classes or socials. It makes no sense to me that you'd invite people who aren't really interested in learning salsa to a training session. The way you talk about them suggests that improving their dancing is the last thing on their minds.
  17. Melvin

    Melvin Tumbao

    No problem, a perfectly legitimate question.

    I haven't invited them specifically, it's all centered around an online private forum where anyone interested from my class or other various people I've met at workshops and socials can join training sessions or initiate their own if they manage to find a location. People show up if they want to.

    And sure, they are interested in becoming better dancers as well.
  18. himji

    himji Sonero

    lol, no worries about your "seceret location", was purely selfish in that I'd ask to join in if you was anywhere local :p. but I know what yo umean by organising things, you'd think people would be sympathetic but peopel that don't orgnise things never are. Oh well such is life, I'm sure you'll get it going well soon.
    Actually some guys does something similar but on a much larger scale round here, once a month we have a free Salsa afternoon in one of the local bar/resteraunts in Stevenage. He just organises it, sends out an e-mail (that advertises all manner of other evenings too) and people turn up. It;s a bit of a hit :)

    back to BO guy, well use my example, somebody, I don';t tihnk it matters guy or girl just needs to tell him. You can use the way it was explained to me if you think it'll help and the rest is then up to him.

    PUa guys, I don't know really, sounds complicated. But it's a simple fact that if it's spoiling the group dynamic, something should be done
  19. Flujo

    Flujo Sabor Ambassador

    Thanks for clearing that up. In that case I'd definitely have a quiet word with them one to one. It's not fair on the others if they behave that way even if they do want to improve their dancing. They can get those kind of kicks and use their pick up tricks at just about any normal club/bar on a Saturday or even during the week if they 'need' to...and if they're desperate then they go to a gentlemen's club or something and stop bothering your lot.
  20. lolita

    lolita Capitán Del Estilo

    Kick the groper out...
    Buy a strong DEO as a christmas gift for the other guy.

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