Discussion in 'Just Dance' started by isaacjunk, Mar 18, 2017.
*cough* this was directed at DJ Yuca, quote fail.
Well, you make my point , as I'm an accredited adjudicator and have been so. for over 40 years, judging in many towns and cities , and not "just a guy ",and it don't get anymore anecdotal than that !!
"A guy" in the singular. I did say anecdotal observations shouldn't be discarded, especially in fields where you don't have anything else - and the anecdotal observations of a highly skilled individual obviously carries more weight than say, me. And yet, the observations of one highly skilled individual shouldn't be treated as gospel. See also: repeatedly banned Cuban guy, researchers everywhere on Earth arguing with each other.
Things in dancing are highly subjective, including judging
So we can talk about personal preferences and include some arguments for them at best
You and I definately have different experiences of latin americans dancing. Also very different experiences with teachers. I have yet to see a salsa teacher who teaches serious technique of dancing. Exception the very first teacher I had back in late 90s. The rest just focussed on moves. The ones that gave technical advice ... well let us say that it was not to standard (to avoid using a harsher term). Maybe things are really different in the other side of the Atlantic...
[QUOTE="LarsM, post: 326338, member: 286604
See also: repeatedly banned Cuban guy,
But, the main reason for that, was his ad hominum attacks, on all and sundry , among other things.
That is because for the NxNth time we either see or hear people admiring multi-spin fest as if is THE dancing barrier that all must pass to be a proper salsa dancer. And this is in line with the social videos we see.
It's just a consequence of "customer is king" and not limited only to salsa or particular side of particular ocean - it's the same in all spheres of our lives. They offer us only what we want and what we actually deserve (majority at least). Those that offer what they think they should are quickly out of business.
Even those that offer something like "serious technique" mostly actually offer styling, in a sense one should "look better" if doing things that way and not one should move/feel better (and BR is not exception here)
So people end up buying bunch of mostly useless things ... hyperproduction of our modern society is based on that
If we assume or decide that the way to dance salsa as defined by the salsa scene is the only correct way to dance salsa then yes, it's a highly technical style that generally doesn't work with untrained dancers, regardless of their familiarity with the music. In respect, obviously trained dancers do better. But the salsa scene has a very homogenized view of salsa dance, so to say it's the only way to dance is incorrect imo. Also the salsa scene is full of people who don't know or like the music they dance to, so I can understand why someone with no training but a deep familiarity with the music might think that their knowledge is equally or more valid than that of someone who goes to classes but doesn't know or like the music.
I must again take contention. If we are calling dancing an art, why can anyone state that training is not a thing that would improve the dance? Why do bands rehearse, painters make sketches, composers write drafts that are subsequently massaged, if not because it produces a more polished end result? It's not just professional athletes that practice and train. Some of us view dancing as a performance art, and find it enjoyable and rewarding to do complex partner work. And an overlapping group of us consider the dance experience to have failed the quality test if the follower fights doing even the most basic steps.
And since context can be quite helpful, let me elaborate on my usage of the word crew on a previous post. When I started learning to dance salsa, I learned Casino-Rueda first, a type of dancing that is only possible to achieve with standardized training. Each crew tends to come up with their own take on turns, or creates some of their own. Therefore I am always searching for those who are trained to dance Rueda.
A couple of hilarious videos on first time salsa.
What do you mean by real partnership? I'm familiar with the below principles of dancing. But I am not familiar with a real partnership principle.
3. Ability to lead-follow complex moves
4. Looking at the other person and smiling
5. Correct weight transfer at the appropriate time to compliment partner's movement
6. Experience with partners of different body types and understanding how to adjust
7. Ability to quickly recover from mistakes or fake movement to hide the mistakes
9. body isolation
10. Arm motion and control
All principles listed require practice, training, exercises, etc. Which is why I'm not as good a dancer as I used to be, as time with my kids is more important to me than dedicating the time to be better.
out of that list, that is the only one that, figures into the equation, and even so ,it does not meet the total requirements of " partnership" .
Add to timing, the 4 most important aspects are.. Hold,
Frame , Poise/Pitch and Muscle control .
Those aspects, are the tools which are necessary to create partnership, with any dancer in any style
The majority of "teachers " ( from all appearances ) do NOT teach close or closed "hold " . Their emphasis, seems to be on the "dance " having little or no close contact.
ALL good dancing needs to " breathe " , and the shading of Light and Dark thru dance , is generally absent .
PS.. you missed one other "techn " in your post.. " Foot Position " , NOT the same as footwork .
You use very abstract metaphors, at least for me. I don't understand what "shading of Light and Dark thru dance" means for dance at all, I'm familiar with that term for painting and video, but I don't see how a social dancer has any control over lighting and shadows in the dance floor. I am also left to assume as to what you mean by "breathe". If I had to guess I would think you are a poet, or composer of some sort. I am an Electrical Engineer, so I'm not used to thinking in abstract terms, nor like them precisely because of the possibility for misinterpretation. Further, your abstraction is such that I have a hard time forming a mental image as to what this poorly instructed dance you are complaining about would look like, except that it would have many turns (and even that is poorly explained as I don't understand how many is too many from your POV), which to me in and or itself is not enough to call it a poor quality dance.
If you mean by "breathe" that they should be doing something other than turns all the time, this doesn't have to be in a close hold. In Casino for example there are multiple positions to dance;
1. Basic (closed or open)
3. Pa'Bajo (with multiple variations of hand hold and alarde options)
4. Gancho (one handed or two handed with and without alardes)
And as a matter of fact I would consider a superior dancer someone that can lead and/or follow through different positions, comfortably stop at different ones, change holds, etc. to create a more varied dance.
BTW, if you just want to dance "afincao" all the time, then good for you. But that doesn't mean it's not a good dance if it's different. I'll continue to say this, I don't contend there's only one right way to dance, but that there's many wrong ways; and that if the better dancers are more adaptable to different partners, then by opposite definition poor dancers are unable and/or unwilling to do so. And that therefore if a Latina is unable and/or unwilling to adapt her way of dancing, she's not a good dancer. Which doesn't mean that she can't get better in Latinamerica, without ever meeting a single non-Latinamerican person, with the right training, practice, and/or instruction.
OK,, in simpler terms; "shading" in dance, is how one creates a distinct difference thru the music , by changing from close to open/apart position, and even shines, One needs to tell a story that fits the music , as that is constantly changing, and yet, most dances NEVER deviate from what they dance, during any song, that's called " Programming " .
You mentioned art, well, "we " need to paint a picture when we dance , it sometimes is abstract ( Terry for ex ) and another good ex, is Tito Ortos who meet that criteria, altho I do not care for Terry's style .
To make my point clear ; The above summary , is primarily pointed at social dance.
Lastly ; abstract metaphors , they are not, Maybe to you , but there are numerous teachers who share my ex. Unfortunately, there are many more who do not !!
@terence response was spot on though perhaps the artistic wording was difficult for an engineer. I know, am an electrical engineer too (I wonder how many more commonalities we have). What Terence is asking for is contrasts. Otherwise its always the same.
Also, his list of requirements is a high level list (think of programming). Take for example your list. You say footwork as first point. Do you imply that good dancers go in the floor thinking toe heel toe heel all the time. Think of degrees of freedom you will have to get that footwork right from the moment you think about it to the moment you execute it.
On the closed/open hold, Terence is simply asking for the basic first (to learn how to walk before you run).
I honestly fail to see how this is relevant to lay people just showing up to dance salsa who have never taken lessons from a professional dancer.
I think your last quote, that many more instructors don't use those terms, frankly is just why I think those terms are better off not being used, as I think they cause confusion for most of us. For me, when I form a mental picture I imagine a staff member who is using spot lights to illuminate the dancers, a particular dancer or couple, or other such staged lighting effects. Like what appears to be my signature quote, there's not only one right way to say it, but there can be many wrong ways.
Since you're talking about a temporal effect, I would refer to it as creating phases or chapters through a song(now imagine the mental picture that will form in the vast majority of fluent adult English speakers). I saw a Tito Ortos video (didn't know who he was) and understand what you mean, and I would add that he included another aspect of dancing none of us have explicitly mentioned but you appear to allude to, musicality. One that I've seen in the dance floor, but very rarely, perhaps because to move with the music as a couple requires that both partners know the song, a specific set of moves that go with that song and each other, and that they've trainer together such that they know the other knows to do it (i.e. they would be reluctant to try it with a highly qualified stranger they just met that night). Additionally knowing that is not enough if the DJ busts out a Cuban Timba set and all they know is NYC hard salsa songs. Which is perhaps why musicality is rarely taught to social dancers.
I would agree that most dance instructors don't teach techniques that span whole songs or are song specific usually associated with performance dancing by professionals vice social dancing by lay people. I would say that part of the reason for that is these very advanced techniques require a very strong foundation few lay people achieve, and that few instructors are so popular to attract so many advanced dancers for enough lessons to achieve good results, and then see a significant grouping of those highly trained dancers showing up to dance together and execute them. Which is why I wouldn't hold it against club goers that they don't know very advanced techniques and don't dance like the best professionals such as Tito Ortos does on a highly choreographed and previously rehearsed dance.
Not saying that I can't benefit from these techniques, I'm just not holding my breath for a local salsa dance instructor to teach them in the small city I live in.
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