Technique vs Musicality/Sabor

I could have easily written this in any one of the relevant threads. I want to bring it out in the spotlight. And may be rant.

I think there is this constant refrain I keep hearing on the SF that somehow implies that technique is at the cost of musicality/sabor. This argument no matter how subtly made, is put forth in many different ways.

Rationally most will agree that is not the case. There are enough practitioners of the art of salsa dancing that exhibit good enough technique, musicality and sabor. So we know it is possible. Yet at times the arguments make it to be zero sum game. As if the passion for musicality is incompatible with the science of techniques or dance fundamentals. Or technique is a joy-killer where as musicality is a fun-spiller (that's my contribution to English language).

As person develops as a dancer he/she is striving to improve in multiple dimensions, whether technique, musicality, connection, sabor, etc. Every individual will grow in each at a different rate.

Then I hear the questions that tend to ask a variation of why should technique matter as long as someone is having fun. That is okay if that someone is not a regular who keeps wanting to dance year after year. The argument that technique doesn't matter is akin to sneering at those who aspire for good education and calling it elitism, or insisting on promoting students to higher grades irrespective of their grasp of fundamentals.

Agreed. Musicality, Technique, Sabor and Fun do not have to be mutually exclusive.

In fact. I would argue that Musicality and Technique are the foundations that fun and enjoyment are built upon.

Everybody has a different definition of "fun".
For some it's doing that super complex move, for others remembering that long footwork pattern, and for another group of people it's just dancing in closed position and smiling.

I think one should not have disregard for technique, but should not be obsessed with it, either.
Some have sabor naturally, while others gain it as time goes by.
If you have zero technique, you will not be able to dance.
If you focus too much on technique, your dance will become too technical and "dry".

Technique is only a tool for you to express the music, not the other way around!

It really depends on what you are after, Salsa is different for different people. As with El Che, you learn techniques to allow you to express yourself with your partner and to the music.

I am of the opinion that the more you get into the complexities of the music and Salsa as a form of expression, the more important your technique becomes.

The more interesting question is: How compatible are groups of dancers who just want to have fun and those that want to focus on learning?

I would say that it is fundamental to get correct instruction from the beginning. That means, learn the dance properly, while learning to understand the music well beyond just following the rhythm to put on a "performance" or robotic techniques.

If people were taught to appreciate and understand the music from the beginning, then they would have more chance of really getting into the musical side, which is where the foundations of sabor lie for most people. However, for that to happen you would need real salsa instructors who are REAL SALSEROS, not some wannabe opportunists who are there for the quick buck, while their only real addiction is to the feeling of being self important.

Nowadays, we have this absurd situation where we apparently have tens of thousands of salsa DANCING fanatics, who don't really like the music so much and would struggle to name you half a dozen decent salsa orchestras. The same is true of their "salsa" teachers.

Short of it is that to have sabor and essence, you will need to develop a feel and passion for the music and unless you are a very musical person to start with, you will not develop it if you spend most of your time focused on empty egg-shell techniques and movements that are only loosely based on the the songs that are playing on the sound system.

I am totally with Ara!

Nowadays there is, in many cases, a complete dissociation of music and dance.
That's absolutely absurd!
The music always comes before the dancing, but many people have been taught, and thus hold the opinion, that it is the other way around.

Many people today would dance in socials to Eddie Torres's "one" (a very basic instrumental salsa track that has a build it count...).

Hey there Offbeat.

Given our previous discussion, I'd like to make it clear that I don't believe that musicality and technique should be opposed to each other.

In fact, the reason I queried you on the previous thread was because you seemed to be making out that they WERE opposed to each other i.e. if you sing along to the music as you dance, then your technique will surely suffer. This has not been my experience, and I believe that musicality and technique are both foundational to good dancing, and should both be encouraged without concern that one will be at the detriment of the other.

(Big10 said that he didn't mind if someone's technique suffered when they were singing along, but that was his observation, not mine).

For me I feel technique informs my musicality...like learning grammar and vocabulary, the more I know, the better I can articulate myself.

alvinthethird said:

For me I feel technique informs my musicality...like learning grammar and vocabulary, the more I know, the better I can articulate myself.

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As long as technique is taught in (musical) context, then it can be used to by one to articulate himself, other wise it is like learning martial arts moves, without being taught their applications.

tallpaul said:

Hey there Offbeat.

Given our previous discussion, I'd like to make it clear that I don't believe that musicality and technique should be opposed to each other.

In fact, the reason I queried you on the previous thread was because you seemed to be making out that they WERE opposed to each other i.e. if you sing along to the music as you dance, then your technique will surely suffer. This has not been my experience, and I believe that musicality and technique are both foundational to good dancing, and should both be encouraged without concern that one will be at the detriment of the other.

(Big10 said that he didn't mind if someone's technique suffered when they were singing along, but that was his observation, not mine).

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I don't want to carry arguments from previous thread into this. This is not about singing while dancing thread

Ara, although you chide him for being repetitious is right on the mark.

The music is not very important for most people For example, how many people opining in threads like these make very many if any posts in the Salsa Music forum??? I see tons of post about the great compliments received for people's near god-like leads, what rotten technique the vast majority of dancers have, etc etc.....but serious discussion about the music......for the great majority, nada.

Offbeat said:

No matter what the thread you keep stating this in every thread

There is no need to beat a dead horse. We can have an intelligent discussion without having to keep harking back to the topic of unqualified teachers.

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You keep seeing me make the same point, because that is the fundamental problem. We can talk about what is right and what is wrong until the cows come home, but if there are no changes on the professional level then we all be blowing hot air through largely meaningless worlds, IMHO.

Across this forum one can see threads discussing bad music/DJs; bad/dangerous/clueless dancers; badly promoted events; a mislead public; etc, etc.

The fact is that all of the above are related to one thing alone, and that is the majority of unqualified professionals involved in the international scene.

So, the intelligent thing would be not to beat about the bush and take the bull by the horns, because the current problems can only be solved from TOP to bottom!

Going back to the subject matter of this thread - "Technique vs Musicality". Do you realize how outnumbered the people who actually combine technique to musicality, as opposed to people who think they are musical because they have somehow gained the magical ability to spin and turn from beginning of one song to the end?

If you agree with me that the majority are not musically inclined in their dancing, then you can only point to them (if they are genetically non-musical) or their TEACHERS. I am sorry, but that is the bottom line.

Yes, one can have technique and sabor, at the same time. That is not rocket science, and should be the aim of dancers who want to go further in their dancing, but the issue is that more people can have SABOR, or at least develop a better feel for the music then they do today, only if they were introduced to salsa by people who are actually qualified to 'introduce' them to it. Instead, we have a situation that dancers, including 'professionals' don't even know what the word means in relation to salsa dancing.

Anyway, my point was related to the topic. I am also sure that there are other related stuff that can be added. Let's wait and see.

DJ Ara said:

Nowadays, we have this absurd situation where we apparently have tens of thousands of salsa DANCING fanatics, who don't really like the music so much and would struggle to name you half a dozen decent salsa orchestras. The same is true of their "salsa" teachers.

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I will play a little bit of devils advocate and be part realistic:

Honestly I myself will struggle to name a dozen decent salsa orchestras. Three or four - may be. A dozen - no. May be able to recognize another 6-7 names if someone else mentions them. Am not a fanatic salsa dancer but I had my days when I was going out dancing 3-4 times a week. I like music when I dance. I never listen to it outside of dancing. So you could say I don't like it Yet I still love salsa dancing. Anything wrong ?


A vast majority of dancers you are decrying come from very diverse background. First time they have heard salsa music is perhaps when they went to salsa class. They don't have advantage of life long culture exposure to salsa music. Not that those who have, necessarily display sabor and musicality. At best they have a better understanding of the rhythm. Sabor and musicality in dancing is not exclusive to salsa dancing. It can be seen in all kinds of dancing to different music.

DJ Ara said:

Short of it is that to have sabor and essence, you will need to develop a feel and passion for the music and unless you are a very musical person to start with, you will not develop it if you spend most of your time focused on empty egg-shell techniques and movements that are only loosely based on the the songs that are playing on the sound system.

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Technique basically means dance fundamentals. I will not label any proper technique to be empty egg-shell. You have to walk before you run. Techniques help you with that.

DJ Ara said:

As long as technique is taught in (musical) context, then it can be used to by one to articulate himself, other wise it is like learning martial arts moves, without being taught their applications.

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I would like to think that anyone that teaches a good technique is not teaching it in vacuum. An instructor either knows how to teach technique or he/she doesn't. Those who do, also add musical context to it. At least the ones that I have witnessed so far.

tocatimba said:

Ara, although you chide him for being repetitious is right on the mark.

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Thank you. I am just stating the obvious and I believe that Offbeat may be somewhat aware of this, but perhaps does not see the importance of it in the same light as you and I (and others). We have absurd situation where the dance has been separated from the musical appreciation, while many people, including some of those posting in this forum do not seem to be aware of this madness.

So yes, we have discussions about the quality of the lead and the follower, even though the good and the bad leads and followers are 9 times out of 10 clueless about the music.

We see people posting Youtube videos of these "demi-gods" turning and spinning themselves senseless, while the poster is either admiring them or asking for the name of the song, a song which the same dancers just ended up destroying by their circus acts.

And on and on it goes....

tocatimba said:

The music is not very important for most people For example, how many people opining in threads like these make very many if any posts in the Salsa Music forum??? I see tons of post about the great compliments received for people's near god-like leads, what rotten technique the vast majority of dancers have, etc etc.....but serious discussion about the music......for the great majority, nada.

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Very valid point. No music = no dance. No musicality = bad dancing! It is that simple.

The problem that you have correctly pointed to above is the result of the absurdities that have been passed of for salsa dancing/promotion/music that have from the top of the "pyramid".

So, it is fair to be aware of these facts when discussing many of the fundamental aspects of the salsa scene, so that those reading and posting here who are actual salsa (not self) lovers, can take their heads out of the sands and grow and search for a better quality salsa education.

DJ Ara said:

You keep seeing me make the same point, because that is the fundamental problem. We can talk about what is right and what is wrong until the cows come home, but if there are no changes on the professional level then we all be blowing hot air through largely meaningless worlds, IMHO.

Across this forum one can see threads discussing bad music/DJs; bad/dangerous/clueless dancers; badly promoted events; a mislead public; etc, etc.

The fact is that all of the above are related to one thing alone, and that is the majority of unqualified professionals involved in the international scene.

So, the intelligent thing would be not to beat about the bush and take the bull by the horns, because the current problems can only be solved from TOP to bottom!

Click to expand...

Unqualified professionals while true, is not topic of this thread. Let's forget unqualified professionals, most people on here agree on that. Bad teachers create more bad dancers than not. Or are you saying that these unqualified professionals some how teach correct technique but not musicality. See my point.

The question here is the place of technique vis-a-vis musicality. Does technique in some magical way takes away your musicality Does being technical diminishes someones ability to be musical or vice versa? Is there a cause and effect? Yes or No?

tocatimba said:

....but serious discussion about the music......for the great majority, nada.

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And your point is?

Music and dance are inter-related but separate. If there was a salsa musicians forums, would you expect more discussions on intricacies of playing music or dancing ?

tocatimba said:

The music is not very important for most people For example, how many people opining in threads like these make very many if any posts in the Salsa Music forum??? I see tons of post about the great compliments received for people's near god-like leads, what rotten technique the vast majority of dancers have, etc etc.....but serious discussion about the music......for the great majority, nada.

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Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. First, based on my obversations of new members, most come to this forum because they've got some questions about the dance and not necessarily because they want to know about the music. Therefor you're more likely to find more threads and discussion here in 'Just Dance' rather then 'Salsa Music'. And second, you're making in my opinion here the mistake of judging from the people participating in the discussion of the section about the number of people interested in the music. But what about those people who're are interested but are just reading to learn more or don't have enough knowledge or interest to join some of the very detailed and specific discussions? I think it's difficult to nearly impossible to judge from the number of people who participate in the 'Salsa Music' section about the general interest of our members in the music.

P.S: You're always free to start a new discussion in 'Salsa Music' about a topic that is close to your heart.

No offense but if you don't know and understand the music....you don't/can't have sabor/musicality in your dancing (at least in my book). You don't have to be a musician....but seriously if you can't name more than 3 or 4 salsa orchestras .... I don't think we are going to come to much of a mutual understanding ... no loss to you I'm sure!

chrisk said:

Sorry, but I think you're wrong here. First, based on my obversations of new members, most come to this forum because they've got some questions about the dance and not necessarily because they want to know about the music. Therefor you're more likely to find more threads and discussion here in 'Just Dance' rather then 'Salsa Music'. And second, you're making in my opinion here the mistake of judging from the people participating in the discussion of the section about the number of people interested in the music. But what about those people who're are interested but are just reading to learn more or don't have enough knowledge or interest to join some of the very detailed and specific discussions? I think it's difficult to nearly impossible to judge from the number of people who participate in the 'Salsa Music' section about the general interest of our members in the music.

P.S: You're always free to start a new discussion in 'Salsa Music' about a topic that is close to your heart.

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Chris the only data we have is peoples posting results. True, it it possible that people are passionately interested in the music and just never post in the music section even though they post LOTS in the dance section .... it's possible .... I don't think it's very likely. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

tocatimba said:

No offense but if you don't know and understand the music....you don't/can't have sabor/musicality in your dancing (at least in my book). You don't have to be a musician....but seriously if you can't name more than 3 or 4 salsa orchestras .... I don't think we are going to come to much of a mutual understanding ... no loss to you I'm sure!

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You need to first define what knowing and understanding music in your book is, so we can read it correctly

I see no co-relation between ability to name orchestras and ability to have musicality/sabor in dancing. We can disagree without loss to either