Some Music Better for "On2" vs. "On1"
- Thread starter David
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Son and Rumba
Hiyall,
Been busy settling into Seattle; dance here is very good, with a very large scene for the size of the city, but mostly On1. I dance about the same: mostly On1. There are a handful of On2 dancers, one a recent emmigre from NY, but the music is mostly suited for On1 dancing.
To you query: absolutely; the answer relates to whether there is a beat on the second beat of the bar, and not just every other bar with the clave. In most cases, this occurs in Son-style Salsa: where the phrasing of the music is such that the singer comes in during the bar where there are only two beats of the clave - chack-chack - rather than in the case of Rumba, where the clave is in the other phrasing: Chack-chack-chack.
To the novice: there are 5 beats of the clave, spread over two bars. In Rumba, these fall on the 1, 2.5, 4, 6, 7; in Son, on 2, 3, 5, 6.5, 8 (counting continuously over two bars, 1 per beat). However, dancing On2 is easiest and feels most natural (esp to a novice) when there is a clear beat on the 2 (and 6, if you wish over two bars). This is made by a flat hand-slap on the Conga drum, if I remember correctly, so listen for the conga rhythm.
Gotta go work some; it pays the bills.
CD
PS: Hi Peachexploration
Hiyall,
Been busy settling into Seattle; dance here is very good, with a very large scene for the size of the city, but mostly On1. I dance about the same: mostly On1. There are a handful of On2 dancers, one a recent emmigre from NY, but the music is mostly suited for On1 dancing.
To you query: absolutely; the answer relates to whether there is a beat on the second beat of the bar, and not just every other bar with the clave. In most cases, this occurs in Son-style Salsa: where the phrasing of the music is such that the singer comes in during the bar where there are only two beats of the clave - chack-chack - rather than in the case of Rumba, where the clave is in the other phrasing: Chack-chack-chack.
To the novice: there are 5 beats of the clave, spread over two bars. In Rumba, these fall on the 1, 2.5, 4, 6, 7; in Son, on 2, 3, 5, 6.5, 8 (counting continuously over two bars, 1 per beat). However, dancing On2 is easiest and feels most natural (esp to a novice) when there is a clear beat on the 2 (and 6, if you wish over two bars). This is made by a flat hand-slap on the Conga drum, if I remember correctly, so listen for the conga rhythm.
Gotta go work some; it pays the bills.
CD
PS: Hi Peachexploration
Hi CD. 
Right the conga gives that "loud" 2 beat and that's what I listen for when I dance On2. If you listen to Micaela (boogaloo) by Sonora Carruseles and Fuego a La Jicotea by Marvin Santiago, you will get a better feel for the music between the two styles of Salsa.
Right the conga gives that "loud" 2 beat and that's what I listen for when I dance On2. If you listen to Micaela (boogaloo) by Sonora Carruseles and Fuego a La Jicotea by Marvin Santiago, you will get a better feel for the music between the two styles of Salsa. You can do both but for me, I hear On1 more. We even used it alot in our Casino Rueda classes. Mexi_gabacho, still around? Could you help us out with another musician's perspective?
Some recommendations for On2
As a principally On1 dancer, I find these to be the best for On2 - I listened to Fuego, but it doesn't have the strongest On2, at least on my computer/headphones. Even then, some of these are a bit intermittant On2:
Carruseles La Sonora Carruseles
Cuba Te Llama Mamborama
Decencia Luigi Texidor
En Barranquilla Me Quedo Joe Arroyo
La Banda The Spanish Harlem Orchestra
La Cartera Larry Harlow
No Vale La Pena Ray Sepulveda & Jonny Rivera
Noche De Rhumba Sonora Carruseles
Oiga, Mire, Vea Orquestra Guayacan
Otra Oportunidad Jimmy Bosch
Son De Cali Son de Cali
Tengo Victor Manuelle
Toro Mata Tropical Dreams
Trucutu Tommy Olivencia
Vamonos Pa'l Monte Eddie Santiago
Caballo Viejo Roberto Torres
Campesino Menique
Cogle el Gusto Wayne Gorbea
Con Gusto Y Gana Joe Arroyo
El Dulce Las Estrellas Cobo
La Guerra De Los Callados Joe Arroyo
La Malanga Brava Joe Cuba
Mirame Jaime Rovira
No Tires La Primera Piedra Tommy Olivencia Y Su Orquesta
Nueva York Fuego '77
Pena De Amor Puerto Rican Power
Quitate La Mascara Hansel Martínez y la Orq. Calle Ocho
Recordando Las Descargas Edwin Bonilla
Siempre Sere Joe Cuba
Welcome to the Party Har-You Percussion Group
Yo Soy La Candela Edwin Bonilla
As a principally On1 dancer, I find these to be the best for On2 - I listened to Fuego, but it doesn't have the strongest On2, at least on my computer/headphones. Even then, some of these are a bit intermittant On2:
Carruseles La Sonora Carruseles
Cuba Te Llama Mamborama
Decencia Luigi Texidor
En Barranquilla Me Quedo Joe Arroyo
La Banda The Spanish Harlem Orchestra
La Cartera Larry Harlow
No Vale La Pena Ray Sepulveda & Jonny Rivera
Noche De Rhumba Sonora Carruseles
Oiga, Mire, Vea Orquestra Guayacan
Otra Oportunidad Jimmy Bosch
Son De Cali Son de Cali
Tengo Victor Manuelle
Toro Mata Tropical Dreams
Trucutu Tommy Olivencia
Vamonos Pa'l Monte Eddie Santiago
Caballo Viejo Roberto Torres
Campesino Menique
Cogle el Gusto Wayne Gorbea
Con Gusto Y Gana Joe Arroyo
El Dulce Las Estrellas Cobo
La Guerra De Los Callados Joe Arroyo
La Malanga Brava Joe Cuba
Mirame Jaime Rovira
No Tires La Primera Piedra Tommy Olivencia Y Su Orquesta
Nueva York Fuego '77
Pena De Amor Puerto Rican Power
Quitate La Mascara Hansel Martínez y la Orq. Calle Ocho
Recordando Las Descargas Edwin Bonilla
Siempre Sere Joe Cuba
Welcome to the Party Har-You Percussion Group
Yo Soy La Candela Edwin Bonilla
Awesome list, CD! Some good music there.
Few of my favorites for On2:
Otra Oportunidad by Jimmy Bosch
La Cartera by Larry Harlow
Cuba Te Llama by Mamborama
Few of my favorites for On2:
Otra Oportunidad by Jimmy Bosch
La Cartera by Larry Harlow
Cuba Te Llama by Mamborama
On2 and Equalizer
I've just found that changing the profile of my Equalizer to emphasize the middle range sounds, peaking around 1K Hz, makes hearing the On2 beat much easier: now I can hear it in Fuego . . .
I guess it may be partly down to how the DJ at your local plays the music, then.
CD
I've just found that changing the profile of my Equalizer to emphasize the middle range sounds, peaking around 1K Hz, makes hearing the On2 beat much easier: now I can hear it in Fuego . . .
I guess it may be partly down to how the DJ at your local plays the music, then.
CD
Re: Son and Rumba
Thanks, CD, for the clear explaination !
I agree with you there. In general:
Son Clave = more suited to on1
Rumba Clave = more suited to on2
However:
Traditional Cuban son IS danced on2/contratiempo (which is different to ET2 or Power2, as far as I could tell).
Songs with 'heavy' Cuban/Timba flavas are best danced on1 or 3 (sometimes contratiempo, depending on the music).
CapricornDancer said:
Thanks, CD, for the clear explaination
!I agree with you there. In general:
Son Clave = more suited to on1
Rumba Clave = more suited to on2
However:
Traditional Cuban son IS danced on2/contratiempo (which is different to ET2 or Power2, as far as I could tell).
Songs with 'heavy' Cuban/Timba flavas are best danced on1 or 3 (sometimes contratiempo, depending on the music).
I dance both and there is definitely a difference for me. If I hear "Asia Mood", "Hong Kong Mambo", or "Atrevida" for instance I instinctively dance on2. Those songs make me "feel" it. A lot of the old Fania and Alegre stuff makes me feel that way too. Anything uptempo drives me to dance on1.
Re: Son and Rumba
Hello everybody! First post...
Just a note I'd like to put in here. You've written up two claves, the Son clave and the Rumba clave, but both the claves that you described are the Son clave. The one you called the Rumba clave is the 3-2 Son clave, and the other is the 2-3 Son clave.
There is more than one type of Rumba, and more than one type of Rumba clave, but the clave most commonly called the Rumba clave is the clave of Guaguancó, which goes: 1-2.5-4.5 | 6-7, or in reverse. The Rumba clave is not just the Son clave in reverse. Both can go either way.
Most, if not all of the songs mentioned in this thread, follow the Son clave -- almost all Salsa follows the Son clave. The direction shouldn't really matter as far as what style, 1 or 2, is more suited to the song. Really, it depends on your style of dancing, and how you feel the song.
As somebody mentioned later in this thread, Son is sometimes danced "on-2", but it is not at all the "on-2" of the new NY Mambo that most on-2 dancers in the US dance, but rather the more typical Cuban "on-2", that you see in Cuban Mambo, with a pause on one, rather than four, and the break on two.
CapricornDancer said:
Hello everybody! First post...
Just a note I'd like to put in here. You've written up two claves, the Son clave and the Rumba clave, but both the claves that you described are the Son clave. The one you called the Rumba clave is the 3-2 Son clave, and the other is the 2-3 Son clave.
There is more than one type of Rumba, and more than one type of Rumba clave, but the clave most commonly called the Rumba clave is the clave of Guaguancó, which goes: 1-2.5-4.5 | 6-7, or in reverse. The Rumba clave is not just the Son clave in reverse. Both can go either way.
Most, if not all of the songs mentioned in this thread, follow the Son clave -- almost all Salsa follows the Son clave. The direction shouldn't really matter as far as what style, 1 or 2, is more suited to the song. Really, it depends on your style of dancing, and how you feel the song.
As somebody mentioned later in this thread, Son is sometimes danced "on-2", but it is not at all the "on-2" of the new NY Mambo that most on-2 dancers in the US dance, but rather the more typical Cuban "on-2", that you see in Cuban Mambo, with a pause on one, rather than four, and the break on two.
Hi Jhb! Thanks for the post! Are you a musician by any chance?
Are you a musician by any chance? Semantics
For the sake of a name, I took what I had read elsewhere; I'm no musician. For clarity, though, 2-3 vs 3-2 Son won't make much of a splash.
Fine if there is a totally separate Rumba clave, or several. That the occasional Salsa sounds like the 4 is calling 'late' on 4.5 would be explained by this. For the purpose of further discussion, I'm happy to call the two forms 2-3 or 3-2 Son clave.
What source can be reliably cited, independent of this discussion? I have one for the Son/Rhumba, but it will take me more time than i have right now to find it.
here's some things I came up with from Google:
http://www.songtrellis.com/discuss/msgReader$2875 - sound of Guaguanco
http://pertout.customer.netspace.net.au/lguaguanco.htm
Some research, with scores (not that I can read them effectively) Not sure, therefore, if the author distinguishes between 3/2 Son and 3/2 Rumba.
http://www.saxakali.com/caribbean/RNay.htm
here's another that does not make a big distinction between Salsa and Guaguanco
See what you think of them. I guess that the interpretation of Salsa music is as varied as preparation of the dish.
CD
jhb said:
For the sake of a name, I took what I had read elsewhere; I'm no musician. For clarity, though, 2-3 vs 3-2 Son won't make much of a splash.
Fine if there is a totally separate Rumba clave, or several. That the occasional Salsa sounds like the 4 is calling 'late' on 4.5 would be explained by this. For the purpose of further discussion, I'm happy to call the two forms 2-3 or 3-2 Son clave.
What source can be reliably cited, independent of this discussion? I have one for the Son/Rhumba, but it will take me more time than i have right now to find it.
here's some things I came up with from Google:
http://www.songtrellis.com/discuss/msgReader$2875 - sound of Guaguanco
http://pertout.customer.netspace.net.au/lguaguanco.htm
Some research, with scores (not that I can read them effectively) Not sure, therefore, if the author distinguishes between 3/2 Son and 3/2 Rumba.
http://www.saxakali.com/caribbean/RNay.htm
here's another that does not make a big distinction between Salsa and Guaguanco
See what you think of them. I guess that the interpretation of Salsa music is as varied as preparation of the dish.
CD
Re: Semantics
Hmm I don't meant to hijack this thread with all this clave talk!
But here goes anyway!
Excellent links!
In the first one, when the MIDI file plays, you can here the guaguancó clave. It's 3-2, and you can hear that extra pause between the first to hits and the third that you wouldn't hear in son. The rest of the percussion of course is all different to son as well (but related). For an actual performed guaguancó, check out Los Muñequitos de Matanzas. They're nice enough to tell you what kind of rumba each song is on the back of the CD!
The second one also distinguishes between the two claves. The clave it gives is that of guaguancó. Here is another link to a page in the same site, where he has put the two different types one above the other so you can compare:
http://pertout.customer.netspace.net.au/lclaveac.htm
I'm not really sure what the the other guy in the third link was on about. Claves aside, guaguancó is a totally distinct musical form from salsa! Few would, on hearing a traditional guaguancó, think it a salsa!
I'll try to find some salsas that obey the rumba clave, but there are very few of them.
Hmm I don't meant to hijack this thread with all this clave talk!
But here goes anyway!
Excellent links!
In the first one, when the MIDI file plays, you can here the guaguancó clave. It's 3-2, and you can hear that extra pause between the first to hits and the third that you wouldn't hear in son. The rest of the percussion of course is all different to son as well (but related). For an actual performed guaguancó, check out Los Muñequitos de Matanzas. They're nice enough to tell you what kind of rumba each song is on the back of the CD!
The second one also distinguishes between the two claves. The clave it gives is that of guaguancó. Here is another link to a page in the same site, where he has put the two different types one above the other so you can compare:
http://pertout.customer.netspace.net.au/lclaveac.htm
I'm not really sure what the the other guy in the third link was on about. Claves aside, guaguancó is a totally distinct musical form from salsa! Few would, on hearing a traditional guaguancó, think it a salsa!
I'll try to find some salsas that obey the rumba clave, but there are very few of them.
Great info JHB. Here's another thread on Clave Rhythms :arrow: Explanation of Clave Patterns
Here's another thread on Clave Rhythms :arrow: Explanation of Clave PatternsExcellent posts/dialogues, guys 8) !
*Just as a side note, Alex Petout is a well-respected percussionist based in Melbourne. While not playing around the salsa scene much, he teaches at the Vic College of Arts*
*Just as a side note, Alex Petout is a well-respected percussionist based in Melbourne. While not playing around the salsa scene much, he teaches at the Vic College of Arts*
hey guys... just a quick question... what does it mean to be dancing On1 or On2 I don't really understand what you guys mean :lol: Is rueda On1 or On2?
On2
This goes way, way back.
When people refer to dancing "on" a specific number, they are referring to the beat on which the "break" step occurs. This step is the one that is forwards (or backwards): away from the center position, where one has both feet together at times (before and after the break step). To add further complications, various people teach On2 in different ways - Eddie Torres and his advocates have the man stepping back On2, rather than forwards, for example.
Salsachinita should be able to tell you about Rueda, I think.
CD
This goes way, way back.
When people refer to dancing "on" a specific number, they are referring to the beat on which the "break" step occurs. This step is the one that is forwards (or backwards): away from the center position, where one has both feet together at times (before and after the break step). To add further complications, various people teach On2 in different ways - Eddie Torres and his advocates have the man stepping back On2, rather than forwards, for example.
Salsachinita should be able to tell you about Rueda, I think.
CD